[Libertas]

It's sad to see so many posters here buying the SJW narrative hook line and sinker, right down to the fictitious "hands up, don't shoot" meme.

I'm usually not on the police's side, mind you. I think that the militarization of the police is a huge problem that has been neglected for decades, and it affects people of all backgrounds. From the use of paramilitary SWAT teams to execute routine search warrants to the rampant death squads in the "war on drugs," everyone is worse off for paramilitary police. They create an atmosphere of distrust and fear.

However, that's not why we see these people out "protesting" and the media yapping so wildly. They're not doing it because of militarized police. They're interested only because of their race narrative SJW bullshit. Recall how Boston was put on lockdown last year and these very same people cheered (meanwhile the police didn't even find their marks).

In doing all of this they're driving a wedge between communities and preventing meaningful debate around this issue. All they're doing is generating a never-ending cycle of outrage for cheap clicks and views, while the SWPLs out in the streets get to pat themselves on the back for how moral they are (all the while inconveniencing all the normal people that actually need to move around the city).

The media is creating this false narrative that is as responsible for the deaths of these two innocent men as this nutjob was. Something like this was bound to happen.

And meanwhile the real issue of militarized police will continue to not get discussed because the media and their SWPL hordes need to get good feels for defending their favorite pet victims.

The entire thing can basically be summed up like this:

[Veloce]

(12-21-2014 01:40 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

If a revolution ever occurs in America, you'll need at least parts of the police and military to join. They're not the enemy.

Good point, but they are part of the enemy. If there was ever a faction that broke from the police/military, there would also be loyalists. As agents of the enemy, they themselves are the enemy.

I'm going to ignore the mostly anecdotal post by jimukr. This isn't about comparing America to other countries, this is about respecting and upholding the laws and government structures that were established only a few hundred years ago which have been corrupted by the elites. To think that the necessary changes will come from elected officials in the Legislative branch is, to use your own term, naive.

[Peregrine]

Quote:

To think that the necessary changes will come from elected officials in the Legislative branch is, to use your own term, naive.

Especially when most of them are bought and paid for by Wall Street, or even former members themselves.

Edit: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-12-13...-no-voters

[jimukr104]

Quote:

I'm going to ignore the mostly anecdotal post by jimukr.

Like I or most people on here care about what you ignore or don't ignore? lol( I am posting to give the other side so others don't get brainwashed here by the one sided garbage being spit our by guys like you).

Your experience is based on what?
We should listen to you because you read newspapers?



Wow what an ego .

But you used the term anecdotal wrongly. Much of what I said is verifiable fact and in any case is nothing different than any of the CRAP/BS you consider variable info.

Everything is subjective but except for specific experiences that you have..MOST of anything else isn't verifiable fact! You( like most) get your opinion based on things you read by a media that makes money by causing sensationalism.

Also we still haven't heard what you consider so bad about our system. I agree there are many things wrong (always has been like every system in history) but most of that is way beyond the power of local law enforcement. Imho I am more concerned with our foreign policy. But since I am versed in geopolitics I see how much of our country is run to support a corrupt foreign policy that our elites want.

Why don't you tell us. Again what is the gov't NOT doing that makes you unhappy? Not giving you free food to cook?

Unless you can visualize what you want and verbalize it..it is nonsense.

Quote:

Hey, you want a piece, there's no problem. They're hiring constantly in law enforcement in California where I worked in the prisons.

Cops get 3% pension per year, so if you work 20 years you would get a pension of 60% of your salary.

Go ahead, if you think it's such a good deal, Work 20 years as a cop keeping the most heartless and stupid people off the streets.

See how you like it.

What bothers me is some of the people who criticize civil servants are doing some of the most parasitic shit imaginable, investment banking, skimming cash off the middle of transactions, creating and building NOTHING.

Most reasonable post I have seen here. Anyone can try out for the position. Where I live half the FDNY (fire dept) is ex NYPD. The city made it harder financially to move over because they were losing so many. They often leave because all the BS and mistreatment they get is not worth it..they can make same money being a fireman and sitting in the house playing PS4 .
Most cop families have siblings who are nurses, Firemen, teachers, etc. I hear all the time that they go into it for guns, power and other BS.

But then why do they transfer out? They are ALL THE SAME. How it works is most guys who decide to do city work take all the tests and they go to whomever calls them 1st. While waiting they often finish their degrees and get other licenses.

For example I have a NYC elementary teachers license. I could be a school teacher. My best friend growing up didn't make police but FDNY hired him. Am I a more EVIL bastard because I got hired for NYPD? I turned down US Marshals..so at least I didn't work for the federal gov't. In the academy my company had 2 nurses and a school guidance counselor. Most who are not ambitious and have an attitude to work in a job that actually is needed for society go do this job. Half have military backgrounds also.

Sure one can say I am a bit biased here but a few points to bring up:
a. Most posters seem to be a bit biased here (bad run ins, etc). Certainly the media is bias where the info comes from.

b. I am RETIRED. I have nothing to lose by these killings or protests or your revolution( i can run out of county with my millions). I get my direct deposit pension every month, free med,dental no matter what you say (rubbing it in).
I also have had bad run in's with cops. Both before and after retirement. Yes, active cops treat retirees worst than perps some times. I was even threatened by an ahole sgt. 12 months ago that he would arrest me. He took the side of a civilian..it is true. Worst the Sgt was WRONG!(made up his own law) He took their side because in Brooklyn they are afraid of the Jewish community and would put their own mother under to appease them.

c. I am probably the only member here who can give the other side of it. You know the side that isn't getting info from mass media or Al Sharpton? I can actually tell you if the cop did what is written in the Patrol Guide or NOT( example cop in stairwell was following rules). Or interpret the NYS penal Law. We do have a lawyer on this site that can do that also.

d. I know all about Anarchy and revolution. I have a home in Ukraine lol.

[AntiTrace]

The biggest problem is here the potential of of an urban "jihad" being waged against police. If the black communities praises this guy, though I highly doubt they will, then it gives the green light for it to continue, and thats when the shit hits the fan. A few isolated incidents are bad days, a straight up war in the streets would be a tragedy.

[lskdfjldsf]

This situation is quite laughable to be honest. It's the same thing as seeing Tea Party anarchists screaming "Get your government hands off my Medicare!"

100,000 peaceful protesters marching in Washington for police reform would have a much better impact than 5,000 wannabe thugs rioting and killing the people protecting them. We've ended wars this way, redefined the definition of marriage this way, granted women the vote this way.

There are peaceful ways to do things but patience, calm, and rational thinking are required. All I see right now are desk chair critics who have never served in uniform, worn a badge, or even entered a training simulator, telling police how to do their jobs.

If you want change, it's all within your reach.

[Veloce]

(12-21-2014 02:51 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

Quote:

I'm going to ignore the mostly anecdotal post by jimukr.

Like I or most people on here care about what you ignore or don't ignore? lol( I am posting to give the other side so others don't get brainwashed here by the one sided garbage being spit our by guys like you).

Your experience is based on what?
We should listen to you because you read newspapers?

Wow what an ego .

But you used the term anecdotal wrongly. Much of what I said is verifiable fact and in any case is nothing different than any of the CRAP/BS you consider variable info.

Everything is subjective but except for specific experiences that you have..MOST of anything else isn't verifiable fact! You( like most) get your opinion based on things you read by a media that makes money by causing sensationalism.

Also we still haven't heard what you consider so bad about our system. I agree there are many things wrong (always has been like every system in history) but most of that is way beyond the power of local law enforcement. Imho I am more concerned with our foreign policy. But since I am versed in geopolitics I see how much of our country is run to support a corrupt foreign policy that our elites want.

Why don't you tell us. Again what is the gov't NOT doing that makes you unhappy? Not giving you free food to cook?

Unless you can visualize what you want and verbalize it..it is nonsense.

Quote:

Hey, you want a piece, there's no problem. They're hiring constantly in law enforcement in California where I worked in the prisons.

Cops get 3% pension per year, so if you work 20 years you would get a pension of 60% of your salary.

Go ahead, if you think it's such a good deal, Work 20 years as a cop keeping the most heartless and stupid people off the streets.

See how you like it.

What bothers me is some of the people who criticize civil servants are doing some of the most parasitic shit imaginable, investment banking, skimming cash off the middle of transactions, creating and building NOTHING.

Most reasonable post I have seen here. Anyone can try out for the position. Where I live half the FDNY (fire dept) is ex NYPD. The city made it harder financially to move over because they were losing so many. They often leave because all the BS and mistreatment they get is not worth it..they can make same money being a fireman and sitting in the house playing PS4 .
Most cop families have siblings who are nurses, Firemen, teachers, etc. I hear all the time that they go into it for guns, power and other BS.

But then why do they transfer out? They are ALL THE SAME. How it works is most guys who decide to do city work take all the tests and they go to whomever calls them 1st. While waiting they often finish their degrees and get other licenses.

For example I have a NYC elementary teachers license. I could be a school teacher. My best friend growing up didn't make police but FDNY hired him. Am I a more EVIL bastard because I got hired for NYPD? I turned down US Marshals..so at least I didn't work for the federal gov't. In the academy my company had 2 nurses and a school guidance counselor. Most who are not ambitious and have an attitude to work in a job that actually is needed for society go do this job. Half have military backgrounds also.

Sure one can say I am a bit biased here but a few points to bring up:
a. Most posters seem to be a bit biased here (bad run ins, etc). Certainly the media is bias where the info comes from.

b. I am RETIRED. I have nothing to lose by these killings or protests or your revolution( i can run out of county with my millions). I get my direct deposit pension every month, free med,dental no matter what you say (rubbing it in).
I also have had bad run in's with cops. Both before and after retirement. Yes, active cops treat retirees worst than perps some times. I was even threatened by an ahole sgt. 12 months ago that he would arrest me. He took the side of a civilian..it is true. Worst the Sgt was WRONG!(made up his own law) He took their side because in Brooklyn they are afraid of the Jewish community and would put their own mother under to appease them.

c. I am probably the only member here who can give the other side of it. You know the side that isn't getting info from mass media or Al Sharpton? I can actually tell you if the cop did what is written in the Patrol Guide or NOT( example cop in stairwell was following rules). Or interpret the NYS penal Law. We do have a lawyer on this site that can do that also.

d. I know all about Anarchy and revolution. I have a home in Ukraine lol.

I can tell you're pretty fired up so maybe we should just let this one fade out, but your post was largely anecdotal, based on your own experiences of living in NYC and feelings towards law enforcement in general, going so far as to compare us to other countries and bringing up some misplaced analogy to the medical industry. None of that is relevant.

My original point, is under the current status of power that exists within the police force and Executive branch, I would rather police have an enemy than NOT have an enemy. Why? You ask me for specifics?

I wouldn't know where to begin. Do you really want me to pull up every case of violations against the citizens of this country regarding renegade police officers acting without probable cause? You're right I don't give two shits about brown/garner. But I sure as hell give a shit when unarmed citizens are being gunned down, beaten, pulled from their homes, have their homes invaded, all without probable cause.

Blick, you're right, it SHOULD be 1000x time more effective for hundreds of thousands of citizens to march on Washington. I wish that were the case.

Anyway, I've got no axe to grind and I can see this one is just going to bounce back and forth ad infinitum, so before things get any more personal I'm gonna bow out.

[Aliblahba]

(12-21-2014 03:52 PM)Blick Mang Wrote:  

If you want change, it's all within your reach.

I keep a .45 in my reach. The gun is mightier than the sword. No one has ever won bringing a pencil to a gunfight. Except for Little Dark.

[TheWastelander]

I love how people solely blame the cops and vote in the same pieces of shit who control them (and rarely do anything to curb their excessive behavior) time and time again.

Morons murdering random police officers are going to make the situation way worse.

[Mr.mp]

jimukr,

I did the same as most that you know. Left the job after fd called, 7 years in. I actually may try to go back to pd if I dont vest out and leave ny. Im still considering though even after almost 10 yrs in... Good for you , no one understands though with pension, ithp plus 50, variable, etc..
C. Your not the only other who can give the other side.
RIP..

[Kaizen]

The shooter apparently had history of psychiatric illness. Gun plus psychiatric illness = dangerous situation as was the case with sandy hook etc etc.

It could have been much worse than 2 cops.

[Nineteen84]

duplicate

[Nineteen84]

RIP

(12-21-2014 05:01 PM)Nineteen84 Wrote:  

[la_mode]

Everyone knows in most states it's about as hard to buy a gun as it is to order a pizza. Even in the so-called difficult states, you can goto a gun show, order get them online, or drive to the next state over if necessary (or even next county in some states). Most of the US loves guns like non-dairy creamer. Gun control is one of the few issues I find myself agreeing with the SWPL's (for different reasons of course - none of which are sanctimonious). There are simply too many loose bolts in the US. Factor in the employment options for lower class men, the overall male surplus, a dating scene in which you have roughly 100 guys in queue for one thin woman, no legalized prostitution, and you have a very unstable society. The US is not Switzerland where a large percentage of the population owning guns seems to make for a safer society.

There's this discussion of background checks, but HIPAA laws prevent any sort of previous or current medical/mental health history from showing up in a background check. If someone has a criminal record they can just pay their friend or someone to do it for them.

One of the paradoxes of the US is that it is one of the most controlled & policed countries in the world, yet, the average man can fight back because of the extremely relaxed gun laws, regardless of who is in office. A country so obsessed with "homeland security" makes it easy for basically anyone to buy gun.

[Sonsowey]

Guys like this are why I still support making guns illegal or as hard to get as possible.

I live in NYC, where we've just seen a rap crew full of teenagers arrested on multiple murder charges, and this guy blast two cops in broad daylight in a neighborhood where I have friends. And NYC is one of the safest big cities in the U.S. overall.

If guns are everywhere, even if 99% of people use them responsibly, there are always these maniacs out there. I simply don't trust people to have guns. What if this guy was just as crazy and worked up, but had a baseball bat or a knife. Think these cops in their car would be dead? I doubt it.

[TonySandos]

(12-21-2014 11:03 AM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

(12-21-2014 10:46 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

(12-21-2014 10:38 AM)Parlay44 Wrote:  

I beg to differ

Quote:

Who are America’s fastest-growing class of millionaires? They are police officers, firefighters, teachers and federal bureaucrats, who, unless things change drastically, will be paid something near their full salaries every year–until death–after retiring in their mid-50s. That is equivalent to a retirement sum worth millions of dollars.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2010/0628/o...-door.html

Hey, you want a piece, there's no problem. They're hiring constantly in law enforcement in California where I worked in the prisons.

Cops get 3% pension per year, so if you work 20 years you would get a pension of 60% of your salary.

Go ahead, if you think it's such a good deal, Work 20 years as a cop keeping the most heartless and stupid people off the streets.

See how you like it.

What bothers me is some of the people who criticize civil servants are doing some of the most parasitic shit imaginable, investment banking, skimming cash off the middle of transactions, creating and building NOTHING.

Yep ,shits no where near as easy as people think. Missing holidays, no xmas bonuses, long shifts, constant departmental bullshit, media breathing down your back for every mistake, interacting with assholes that despise YOU because THEY broke the law. Constantly being on guard. Responding to out of control situations with inebriated and unpredictable individuals. Try it if you wanna knock it.

Military gets 2.5% per year and the majority retire at 20 years, earning 50% salary for life including free benefits. I dont think I need to list what they (or at least a good amount of them) sacrifice.

A congressman serves one term and gets 100% salary for life.

Which one of out the three makes the least sense?

Each military year has to be a "good year" to qualify under 20 full years of contract. Good years are years where you participated the vast majority of down range training or movements, weren't out on medical leave etc.

Only active duty military qualify for the 20 year retirement plan and each year has to be full active duty years, likely consecutive. That means each servicemember likely has no degree or an online bachelors only and no house. They still have some moving in life to do after that "cushy" retirement.

Your "free" medical benefits only apply to those that have qualified as veterans disabled at 50% or beyond on their rating system. Everyone else loses medical after a few years off of active duty and it's mostly private charity organizations that allow former military all the "free" stuff they get.

[IvanDrago]

(12-21-2014 05:01 PM)Nineteen84 Wrote:  

RIP

(12-21-2014 05:01 PM)Nineteen84 Wrote:  

I don't have exact numbers but dozens of innocent people are murdered per day in the US. I feel exactly the same for those people as I do for the men in this story. They are all tragedies in my mind but the victims occupation doesn't alter my thought process one way or the other on the tragedy. How come there aren't dozens of posts like this per day here?

[TonySandos]

(12-21-2014 12:29 PM)Parlay44 Wrote:  

(12-21-2014 12:13 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

(12-21-2014 12:06 PM)Parlay44 Wrote:  

(12-21-2014 11:59 AM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

We're not living in Roman times where decimation is a thing. Even then there was a good reason for it back then. Anyone that celebrates two random cops being killed is a disgusting piece of shit. This isn't a fight against the system it's just plain murder.

It's also murder to shoot an unarmed man in the street with his hands in the air. Not to mention choking a man to death over a misdemeanor when police policy clearly forbids chokeholds.

There's a whole lot of murder going on and nobody's hands are clean.

Did these two men personally shoot the person mentioned or choke out someone on the street until they died?

How does random murder from a group of blue collar men doing their job help society.

I know people want to turn this into an argument about fighting against an occupying force but it's nothing close to that. It's a bullshit argument at best. There are certainly police abuses but nothing that warrants assassination of random men doing their job.

When they put on their uniform they cease to be individuals anymore. They're part of a collective organization ...a gang. Same way prosecutors can charge "innocent" people under Rico for being part of a criminal organization they should be charging the Police as an organization for criminal activities and policy. But they don't because they're all on the same team. That's the issue here. It's a corrupt system. And more cops will die if they don't change their policy.

Wow.

A gang is a loose knit organization with the sole purpose of enterprise and fuck everyone else. The police exist for a far different capacity in the first place.

Parlay, what sense does it make to turn the RICO act on police?

Another long time poster of the lawyer persuasion mentioned that the RICO act is far more encompassing than commonly used as, but it's not overstretched to avoid that draconian characteristic creeping beyond a certain point of usage.

Let's think logically about this finally.

Gangs don't have internal investigations departments to fight corruption, they're corrupt by design.

[Nineteen84]

(12-21-2014 05:31 PM)IvanDrago Wrote:  

(12-21-2014 05:01 PM)Nineteen84 Wrote:  

RIP

(12-21-2014 05:01 PM)Nineteen84 Wrote:  

I don't have exact numbers but dozens of innocent people are murdered per day in the US. I feel exactly the same for those people as I do for the men in this story. They are all tragedies in my mind but the victims occupation doesn't alter my thought process one way or the other on the tragedy. How come there aren't dozens of posts like this per day here?

Because the title of the thread is 'Two police officers shot and killed while in patrol car in Brooklyn '...

[weambulance]

(12-21-2014 05:09 PM)la_mode Wrote:  

Everyone knows in most states it's about as hard to buy a gun as it is to order a pizza. Even in the so-called difficult states, you can goto a gun show, order get them online, or drive to the next state over if necessary (or even next county in some states). Most of the US loves guns like non-dairy creamer. Gun control is one of the few issues I find myself agreeing with the SWPL's (for different reasons of course - none of which are sanctimonious). There are simply too many loose bolts in the US. Factor in the employment options for lower class men, the overall male surplus, a dating scene in which you have roughly 100 guys in queue for one thin woman, no legalized prostitution, and you have a very unstable society. The US is not Switzerland where a large percentage of the population owning guns seems to make for a safer society.

There's this discussion of background checks, but HIPAA laws prevent any sort of previous or current medical/mental health history from showing up in a background check. If someone has a criminal record they can just pay their friend or someone to do it for them.

One of the paradoxes of the US is that it is one of the most controlled & policed countries in the world, yet, the average man can fight back because of the extremely relaxed gun laws, regardless of who is in office. A country so obsessed with "homeland security" makes it easy for basically anyone to buy gun.

Sigh. You really have no idea what you're talking about, man.

https://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download...4473-1.pdf

That is the form 4473, which you fill out when you buy a gun from, or transfer a gun through, an FFL. Lying on that form is a felony. If you check "yes" to any of the questions except A, you're not getting the gun. Read the questions. You'll find they cover the issues you brought up.

After you fill out the 4473, the FFL holder calls in a NICS check. You have to pass the NICS check before they give you the gun. I've been delayed several times despite having no legal restrictions from buying a firearm, so it's hardly a rubber stamp type operation.

As for private sales that do not require a 4473, you can't sell guns across state lines, and selling a gun to a felon or otherwise restricted person is illegal.

In short, all the ways that criminals, mentally unstable people, etc get guns are already illegal. And that isn't stopping them. So you think making it more illegal is going to make a difference?

And as I have stated many times on this board, there is a negative correlation between private firearms ownership / permissive carry laws and violent crime. Plainly stated, the easier it is for private citizens to own and carry firearms the less crime there is, because criminals aren't stupid, and they are much less likely to try carjacking someone when there's a high probability they'll eat lead in the process.

Did you know that elected officials and police officers are exponentially more likely to commit crimes than concealed carry licensees? Police are also much more likely to shoot innocent bystanders than CCL holders. Food for thought.

Gun control has nothing to do with controlling crime. That's how they sell it, but it's really about establishing a state monopoly on force.

Edit - the question you're allowed to answer yes to is A, not L.

[la_mode]

Anyone can still goto a gun show and buy one. Referred as the "gun show loophole".

[weambulance]

Yeah, referred to as the "gun show loophole" by people who are full of shit and trying to push an agenda.

If you buy from an FFL holder at a gun show, you need to do a 4473 and a NICS check. And it is still illegal for private sellers to sell to prohibited people.

A gun show isn't a magical fairyland where gun laws don't apply.

[Cattle Rustler]

There's so much anger in this thread....

[It_is_my_time]

The problem isn't guns. If the criminals want guns, they will get them one way or another. And if they can't get a gun they will find another way to kill people.

The problem is feminism. Feminism diminishing the role of dad and kicking dad's out of the house. Single mother households account for a vast majority of criminals. The areas with the highest out of wedlock births are also the areas with the most crime and violence. The problem will not be fixed by more government, especially not the very same government that created this problem to start with by chasing dad out of the house and replacing him with welfare.

[weambulance]

By the way, la_mode, I'm not trying to come across like a dick. Most people are very misinformed about firearms law, because they're not plugged into the "gunniesphere" or whatever you want to call it. But I've been doing this gun politics stuff for over a decade, and I've bought and sold more guns than most people will see in their entire lives in half a dozen states. I know what I'm talking about, and it gets frustrating having to refute the same old lies being peddled by the media and government.