[Dalaran1991]

I'm taking a break from gaming.

***********Background info, FYI*******************

Asshole game is the only game I know and it has changed my life. But I hit a plateau. Asshole game is not sustainable in the long term given I mostly run social circle game and day game. Aside from the inner game help, asshole game is meant to demolish bitch shield and entitlement but girls I run into are often very nice. It has wreaked havoc on my social circles lately because I was not careful. (FYI, I game in Paris but I stayed away from any anglosphere girl)

Especially the SNL/SDL I got, I remember myself not being much of a teasing asshole and just being more like what Roosh calls a "confident beta". Shit, last SNL I got I even complimented the girl "your hair is different today. Nicer"

Personally I'm an introvert and no longer enjoy being the loudest/most assertive guy in my social circle any more. Girls here are socially calibrated and they see through that. I love fun teasing but I've been doing it out of principle rather than actually enjoying it. And maybe French girls don't have the same sense of sarcasm we do, and they take it seriously. A pretty cute girl I know told me recently "you know what's strange? I love dancing with you the most, but you are also the one who criticize me the most" ???? Bitches be tripping.

But this is actually an honest feedback. Most girls have a lot of self-esteem issues. In a toxic environment like the Anglosphere they deal with it by constructing bitch shield, cuntiness and being rude to others. In a healthy environment girls work to address their problem just as much as we try to improve ourselves. In such case the neg should be replaced with light hearted tease. Imagine if you roll in the set dressing nice and being a NICE and CONDIFENT guy and some guy start giving you a backhanded compliment "you dress nice for someone so ugly" how would you feel? Everyone present would agree that guy is a dick. And I feel like I've been that dick for quite a few times with girls.

Call me beta or whatever, but there's gotta be a way to game girls (NOT night game) that make both you and the girl feel good. There's still a nugget of truth in "make her feel special and she can't have enough of you".

**********************************The post*****************************

Anyway I'm taking this time off from game to experiment a bit with smooth talking and injecting lighthearted compliment into conversation. Personally I feel good when I give compliments to girls who DESERVE it. I was out dancing tonight with the regulars and the girls took extra effort to dress nice and sexy. Out of negging habit I told her "wow, for once you didn't make a huge fashion faux-pas" I had fun with her but I felt like I could just have said "that dress looks good on you" etc

I understand why people are cynical with smooth game because most of the smooth game you see look like this:

Gamewise RG got good game, body language etc. but we all have to wonder, can he pull that off if he isn't that handsome? He compliments the girl directly "I think you are very attractive" in a very confident, matter of fact way. His frame is solid.

I'm just gonna get out there and experiment with this for a bit, which is something I haven't done in a year because all interactions have always been for the strict purpose of gaming. Two rules:

-The girl must deserve the compliment. No fucking compliment on something she hasn't earned (i.e her round ass)
-I do it because I feel like it.

I will post the results here as I go on. In the mean time I want to know if others have done something similar or use compliments frequently in their conversation, and if so how?

[FretDancer]

You never really "take a break" from Game, unless you decide you don't want to sleep with women anymore.

It is good to experiment and learn from the results.

Also, if you are gonna compliment girls on their assess, you better have the right confidence and frame to do it.

[Travesty]

Sounds like you neg way too hard.

If people make bitter faces or go silent when you neg you are doing it wrong.

If they smile, laugh, and playfully call you an ass, punch your arm etc... you are doing it right. Even better if she acts fake mad and breaks down in laughter looking at your self-serving smile. "Who are you!?" is also a good thing to hear.

I think the neg is to make a girl feel silly and playful at all times.

In my experience compliments work best after you banged a chick and you reward her to keep getting dolled up for hot sex.

[Onto]

Teasing is different than negging, at least for me.

I only neg a girl when she deserves it and they almost always do because at some point in the conversation she will try to gain hand. That is when I bring out the neg, and do it in a light-hearted, playful manner that lets her know:

1) She's getting a bit carried away with herself
2) I will call her on it

After more dates and you start to settle into an LTR the need to neg should become less frequent. If it's not then that's a red flag obviously, unless you're the type who enjoys conflict.

Teasing should last a lifetime in a relationship

[General Mayhem]

I started a thread asking for help with my asshole game a while back.http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-35503.html

You might be able to identify with some of the stuff in there.

I started trying to tone down my asshole game back in April, and I'm still working on it. It hasn't been easy.

I realized a lot of it was just trying to protect my ego. I think I have enough value where I don't need to neg a girl hard in most situations.

Since I've read Distant Light's blog I replaced negging with skepticism and I have gotten a lot of positive responses. I would definitely suggest looking some of his stuff up.

It sounds like you have the right attitude going forward.

[Tactician]

I've always thought that it all boils down to not showing neediness.

Asshole game doesn't show any neediness, but it can come off as very crass to certain women. This is one advantage.

The problem with complimenting a women is that people often do it in a manner that says they are expecting something back. Perhaps I'm not describing it correctly, but it feels as if they are trying to obligate of ingratiate the women by way of their compliment. If you have any hidden neediness / pedestalization issues, complimenting can often draw them to the surface for the woman to sense.

I think it's like wearing a suit. Some people wear a suit clumsily and self-consciously because it doesn't fit their personality. Others own it and it feels like they wear suits all the time; it isn't a big deal. Likewise, if you give a compliment because you feel like it and aren't looking for anything in return as opposed to giving a compliment as a supplication you should be right on track (exceptions might be night gaming Americanized sluts).

Edit: As mentioned by Onto, teasing is great.

[Dalaran1991]

@Travesty, you are correct and I know that I sometimes neg too hard. Good negs are hit and miss and very situational. I know what it looks like. I've had girls respond with everything positive you described after one neg.

Might sound like blasphemy, but my observation: the best negs are when the girl is already a bit attracted to you. Thoughts?

My problem is that I am "locked" in asshole mode even if I don't want to, and sometimes I force a neg. It's always when I want to compliment a girl for something she deserves that a switch flips in my head "stop you are going full beta" and before I could think of something witty I already spit out a neg. That's when it goes wrong.

@Mayhem, I remember the thread, I posted in there. Re-reading it helps a lot. It seems we have the exact same problem. I don't want to keep running asshole game anymore. If I have to go down might better be remember as prince charming than prince savage.

@Tactician: I agree completely. Asshole game is our version of the bitch shield. It doesn't show any neediness and thus protects our ego, albeit at a cost. It's also very easy to get stuck there because asshole game provides the perfect excuses: if the girl reacts negatively, that's her loss. That attitude prevents us from making calibration while keeping us going. This is good only at the beginning.

Overall I'm not a cocky asshole at heart so gaming while fun it's extremely taxing to me, that's why I said I'm "taking a break", more in the sense that I'm not talking to girls for the explicit purposes of getting them into bed. Of course I'm not going full beta and bring them flowers. But I will use this time to experiment with conversational dynamics that are more in tune with who I am.

Also this may sound silly, but I think there's a game karma. If girls are constantly being nice to you and you keep running asshole game for no reason, shit starts flying in your face. It's been happening to me for the last few weeks.

[lowside]

minus the end, crazy stupid love is a nice red pill movie.

[la_mode]

Essentially looks discussion, i.e. it's good game when Ryan Gosling uses a direct compliment, but not if done by Jonah Hill.

[Ensam]

(12-16-2014 05:44 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

Overall I'm not a cocky asshole at heart so gaming while fun it's extremely taxing to me, that's why I said I'm "taking a break", more in the sense that I'm not talking to girls for the explicit purposes of getting them into bed. Of course I'm not going full beta and bring them flowers. But I will use this time to experiment with conversational dynamics that are more in tune with who I am.

Also this may sound silly, but I think there's a game karma. If girls are constantly being nice to you and you keep running asshole game for no reason, shit starts flying in your face. It's been happening to me for the last few weeks.

I'm starting to come around on the 'just be yourself' advice.

From http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-28924-...#pid905729:

(12-15-2014 01:55 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

Update:

I no longer lie about my age.

Lying is no longer congruent with my personality.

Lying comes from fear that you are not good enough.

Now, I know I am good enough. I don't need to lie.

I will lose some girls but I will gain other girls.

I finally have a real "abundance mentality". Lying is a symptom is a "scarcity mentality".

---

I used to lie because 90% of the girls I interacted with, I would never see again.

Now, when I interact with a girl, there is a decent chance that we will be seeing each other again.

I don't need to lie.

I can get college girls with the truth.

It's a liberating feeling!

There's something to be said for authenticity. It's a subtle point though - guys who are just getting into game are probably best served by trying what works and then recalibrating back to a more authentic self over time. Although I find the term PUA a little grotesque there is a bit of a parallel to being an artist. First you have to learn how to follow the rules (e.g. be an asshole) then you can strategically break them (find a way to still be assertive and attractive without going against your sense of self) when it suits you. But if you never learn the rules you wont know why you're breaking them and it'll just be a mess.

If you look at what 'negging' really is - it's just gentle ribbing or teasing. It's a way of flirting. It's not mean spirited at all when done properly. Likewise, a lot of what's attractive about dickish behavior isn't the fact that it's mean - it's that it's self centered. It's the 'don't-give-a-fuck' aspect that's important. You can find a way to express those attributes in less harsh ways that fit with who you are.

Assertiveness and decisiveness are two of the most attractive traits in men and often times being assertive and decisive can cause a girl to call you an asshole. That's different from actually being mean though. When done right she's calling you an asshole because you're not doing what she wants or expects and she's finding herself more attracted to you in spite of not getting what she 'wants' - not because you're doing something cruel. The exact same words will fly out of her mouth when you do something mean spirited too - but the subtext will be different and she'll likely leave rather than stick around.

[JayJuanGee]

I have my doubts about whether I understand various schools of thought regarding game; however, I believe that I have been employing a large number of gaming strategies for years and years.

Yet, at the same time, when I read various RVF threads about the various pick up practices of others, I begin to recognize areas in which I could adjust my own approach or to improve upon my various strategies and/or even to reassess my goals within any particular gaming or pick-up situation.

It seems that surely we need to find our own comfort levels when we neg girls, and to measure whether we are going too far or NOT far enough and whether we are timing such negs to the circumstances in which they may be warranted.

For example, if a guy can tell that a girl already has various self-esteem issues, then it may NOT be a good idea to neg such a girl or at least to be more judicial in the employment of negs. If a girl is getting a bit cocky and also overly self-assured, then there are likely opportunities to neg and/or to employ such negging to communicate messages regarding your own value and that you are NOT going to accept her framing of your relationship.

It seems that ultimately, the intensity of any negging needs to be measured and somehow seems to relate to how likely it appears that the girl(s) is(are) willing to accept your frame.

[Giovonny]

Yes, experiment with this stuff. Experiment with all of the stuff you see in the movies. All of it can be done, if you have big enough balls.

I have never been very good with "negs" or "asshole game". They don't feel congruent with my personality.

I used to be "Too Nice", but, over the past few years, I have learned how to correct that.

I lost many girls because I was "too nice", but, I also gained many other girls. Different types of girls. Not all girls want an "asshole" learn to give her what she craves in that moment.

Calibrate to the girl you are talking to. Calibrate to her vibe.

Don't be fake. Be the person you want to be.

[JayJuanGee]

(12-15-2014 09:08 PM)General Mayhem Wrote:  

I started a thread asking for help with my asshole game a while back.http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-35503.html

You might be able to identify with some of the stuff in there.

I started trying to tone down my asshole game back in April, and I'm still working on it. It hasn't been easy.

I realized a lot of it was just trying to protect my ego. I think I have enough value where I don't need to neg a girl hard in most situations.

Since I've read Distant Light's blog I replaced negging with skepticism and I have gotten a lot of positive responses. I would definitely suggest looking some of his stuff up.

It sounds like you have the right attitude going forward.

Oh, By the way, I looked at the above thread after my above post, and really to me, it seems to me that Runsomatic summed up the whole topic with the following post.

http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-35503-...#pid713177

At least his post seems to be saying what I wanted to say in much fewer words.

[edtf]

I think asshole game is a niche, and appeals only to a certain demographic. I think as long as you're opening and escalating successfully, its good game.

[Pride male]

Heartiste really pushes the whole chicks dig jerks and criminals, aloof asshole cad and some people, myself included take it a bit too far. I think game gurus should really elaborate. God knows I have lost many a lay by trying to act like Scarface.

[Giovonny]

(12-23-2014 08:13 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

Runsomatic summed up the whole topic with the following post.

http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-35503-...#pid713177

Yes, he did sum up the topic nicely with that post!

It is an excellent post!

I felt it was worth re-posting..

(04-27-2014 04:36 PM)runsonmagic Wrote:  

When you are significantly lower value than the girl, you have to close the gap. Arrogance, negs, not-giving a fuck, etc. are all ways to do that.

As you improve yourself and raise your value, you need those things less because she sees you as higher value than her.

I suspect you've gotten better with game since you started, and now don't need as much cockiness. It sounds like overgaming. I know, because I did the same thing.

If she is starry-eyed from the first moment, and into you, just run "don't fuck it up" game, make her comfortable, and try to bring her home. You don't have to build attraction if you're already attractive and she knows it..

I am just now starting to realize this and experience this!

Thanks to Runsomatic!

That post really helped me!

I knew I didn't have to be an "asshole" to get girls.

Now, it is all starting to make sense!

(12-24-2014 12:16 AM)edtf Wrote:  

I think asshole game is a niche

I agree, being an "asshole" works for some guys on some girls, it doesn't work for all guys on all girls.

It never worked for me.

[Menace]

Like many things in game, the advice is geared to people who are just starting out, and are straight up beta/newbie, with no significant girl experience. The emphasis on asshole game, in my opinion, is a way to shock you into the right frame of mind and out of the "nice guy" frame. However, we are all actually moving targets for game; we are constantly evolving. After you've accepted a new way of thinking, you're not the same man you were 6 months ago, or 1 year ago. So why would you think the same game advice is applicable? When confidence and success become integrated into you, you will not appear to be actually using game, but will still see the results as if you were. Make sense?

I also don't neg girls...at least not at the beginning. Actually, I "neg" after the bang, not before. There are also different types of negs...for example, I usually come off as smart/serious, so I often make girls feel a little stupid, without explicitly calling them that. Make them feel smaller (a bit), but do not insult them. Can be a fine line, but it comes with practice.

I find compliments can work, but generally best for non-Americans, or girls who are obviously inexperienced/insecure. And also, just one compliment is enough. The compliment MUST be followed up by physical escalation of some kind...otherwise it comes off weak.

[Sonoma]

Do what you want to do, and accept the outcome. Personally, I'm a major asshole and it costs me girls from time to time; however, I prefer it to biting my tongue.

A girl tells me about her sociology degree, I ask her how much harder it must of been for to convince her dad to pay for that than to have gone out and worked a real job to pay for college. She'll be butthurt, but I'm not going to follow her whiny dialogue and rationalizations about how "successful" she is to have graduated with a worthless degree.

I have friends who prefer to be fake and smile and banter with girls. They enjoy that, and they get girls too.

But more important than getting girls is saying what you want to say, no matter how much pussy it costs you. For work/money on the other hand, ill kiss ass all day

[Pride male]

As far as I know Mystery never said anything about being an ass hole, or a criminal jerk or hitting women. He came across as a nice guy in my opinion.

[Pride male]

As far as I know Mystery never said anything about being an ass hole, or a criminal jerk or hitting women. He came across as a nice guy in my opinion.

[JayJuanGee]

(12-24-2014 03:22 PM)Menace Wrote:  

Like many things in game, the advice is geared to people who are just starting out, and are straight up beta/newbie, with no significant girl experience. The emphasis on asshole game, in my opinion, is a way to shock you into the right frame of mind and out of the "nice guy" frame. However, we are all actually moving targets for game; we are constantly evolving. After you've accepted a new way of thinking, you're not the same man you were 6 months ago, or 1 year ago. So why would you think the same game advice is applicable? When confidence and success become integrated into you, you will not appear to be actually using game, but will still see the results as if you were. Make sense?

I also don't neg girls...at least not at the beginning. Actually, I "neg" after the bang, not before. There are also different types of negs...for example, I usually come off as smart/serious, so I often make girls feel a little stupid, without explicitly calling them that. Make them feel smaller (a bit), but do not insult them. Can be a fine line, but it comes with practice.

I find compliments can work, but generally best for non-Americans, or girls who are obviously inexperienced/insecure. And also, just one compliment is enough. The compliment MUST be followed up by physical escalation of some kind...otherwise it comes off weak.

I agree with your various points, Menace, regarding applying various strategic negging that frequently is subtle or indirect.

Each of my relationships has its own character; however, I do have a tendency to attempt to employ similar strategies to get the girl to accept my frame, and if she refuses then I next her.. although sometimes I will attempt to get a few more bangs, first before nexting her.

For example, I will frequently, let a girl know that she needs to try to control her emotions more, even when she is NOT being emotional, or I may indicate that she is "just like that, unable to control some of her emotions." I will also suggest that I am willing to assist her in fixing various defects that she has. The more time you spend around a girl, the more defects that can be identified, and they can be identified in fun and joking ways.

When the girl suggests that I have various defects, too, frequently I will downplay those assertions of any of my defects by saying that those alleged defects are not in fact defects, they are features and assets of my character and my lifestyle.. hahahahaha -

And, when girl's suggest that I am employing a double standard, then I will turn the tables and ask the girl if she expects everything in our relationship to be equal... "are you a feminist or something...??? hahahhaha I say these kinds of things in fun and joking ways, and girls realize that I am mostly serious, even though acting fun about it..

It seems that guys should strive to set frames for the relationship and to strategically use negging when girls seem to becoming too uppity or if they are attempting to be equals and/or to get her to accept the guy's frame.

[Pride male]

Wasnt there a time when opening doors, kissing hands, giving gifts and being a gentleman was considered game? I am sure even cavemen provided meat and white knighted when a predator jumped on a bitch. So where did the whole ass hole game come from?

[JayJuanGee]

(12-25-2014 03:36 AM)Pride male Wrote:  

Wasnt there a time when opening doors, kissing hands, giving gifts and being a gentleman was considered game? I am sure even cavemen provided meat and white knighted when a predator jumped on a bitch. So where did the whole ass hole game come from?

It seems that no one here is saying all or nothing concerning asshole game, and maybe even from time to time, asshole gamers will employ various gift strategies and "gentleman" strategies.

Surely, OP seems to suggest that game is connected with asshole game, but I believe that the various responses in this thread have suggested that OP may have been playing asshole game too heavily or even interpreting game to be completely about being an asshole in various regards, and accordingly, in some of his subsequent responses, it appears that he has decided to employ less asshole game.. and to experiment with such.

In the end, asshole game still seems to have a purpose in male/female interactions and it seems to be a matter of degree and timing in employing asshole game rather than completely abstaining from it. Maybe some guys will get by without employing any asshole game?

As far as game history, someone else is probably better able to discuss the various schools of thought regarding game and the evolution of game in modern times. Surely, we understand that location makes a difference and technology makes a difference and ratios of men to women makes a difference and ratios of skinny women to fat women also seems to make a difference, and these matters are evolving in front of our eyes.

Even though I do NOT claim to be any kind of history/sociological/archeological buff, I am fairly certain that through out history there have been guys playing asshole game while simultaneously other guys were playing gentlemen game and simultaneously other guys were playing beta game and other guys were playing a combination of these with varying approaches. Yes, birth control evolved and modes of social interaction evolved, and guys may have NOT had terms for what they were doing, but they were employing various strategies to win over girls and to bang them (or to marry them in monogamous relations), either by hook or by crook or maybe merely by their social position and family connections.

[Dalaran1991]

Just been over the "your biggest redpill lessons" thread and it's fucking insightful

http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-22952-page-4.html

I think I got it all wrong. It's never about complimenting a girl. It's about telling them exactly what they want to hear.

Quote:

All women (100%) are insecure.

Here is some old school advice that may be redpill for some:
"You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."

This means, if you can make people feel good about themselves, they will be drawn to you. It is one of the most attractive qualities a man can possess.

Now think about this: all women are insecure, and people are drawn to those who make them good about themselves. If you can figure out what a woman is insecure about and then genuinely throw praise towards her about that part of her, what do you think will happen?

Quote:

"Tell a beautiful girl she is smart. Tell an ugly girl she is beautiful."

Asshole game = not real game. Asshole game means you're underperforming.

This is why there has always existed smooth-talking game. On the surface it looks like compliment but when you get right down to it it's about reading the psychological make up of people and tell them exactly what they want to hear. This is some pretty advanced stuff that's why you don't hear it discussed that often.

Next time I'm just gonna tell that shy girl that she has such a headstrong character, so maybe she should join some risky adventures with me

[Parlay44]

How did I miss this thread

Anyways ...asshole game is for little girls. They eat it up. The only experience they have interacting with males is their father(if they have one) and he usually does a mix of treating her like a princess and being a total asshole. That's what you gotta do. When you're alone with her be super sweet. When you're out in a group just be an asshole. That's what they know. That's what they're used to.

Once they've been around the bar scene for a while they start to respond to cocky funny game. They get tired of assholes. It's a natural progression.

Once they get to the husband shopping age of 27+ cocky funny doesn't work as well. You need to be entertaining and have some good stories to tell. They love stories and life experiences. It makes sense ...they don't want some dorky noob to settle down with. They want an exciting worldly man.

Of course as a man you don't give a fuck about what women want. You care about what you want. And what you want is a nice clean conservative girl to cook and clean for you and wash your dirty boxers and iron your shirt every morning.