[Dalaran1991]

A bitter friend who is swallowing the redpill asked me this question on facebook:

"Bro, we all know that women's nature is subservient, they want to be dominated and led. Its in biology, thus "gender equality" itself must be a step back on the road to natural development. Then why the hell do the most civilized countries like USA, UK etc. support feminism so furiously?"

I've got a pretty good idea of what to answer, but Im biting my tongue since there are people on here who can answer this question much better than I do.

I also want a more in-depth answer of this western-wide trend. It has already infected continental Europe. Already Sweeden has fallen to the matriarchy. France, Italy and Spain are still resisting because the women there are feminine enough they dont need feminism, but I doubt it will stay that way for long.

I want to understand more about the nature of modern feminism, how it operates and how it infects the "modern world", as well as how men and nations react to it. Apparently Russia is doing a pretty damn good job of stomping feminism hoaxes to the ground. How do they do it and how can the results be reproduced eslewhere.

Chime in scholars.

[duedue]

This is a very good question. I think the answer is given by ideological stagnation. Marxism and nationalism (in particular communism and fascism) have been defeated and religion has been on the retreat. This produces an ideological vacuum that progressives want to fill in with feminism. They believe when women are in charge of the world, it becomes a better place. They are hungry and excited for the unprecedented experience of women holding the political and financial power.

(A discerning person sees the flaw in this type of thinking easily. For one thing George Orwell's Animal Farm tells us turning things upside down will not give you the desired outcome. Female politicians like Condy or Mao's wife show you that female politicians can cause as much damage (to Iraq and Chine respectively) as male ones, and also we all know the decline in journalistic integrity (among many other things) caused by feminism. Another point is that, contrary to popular belief, for biological reasons (sex and reproduction) men are much more kind to women than the other way around.)


I lived in Sweden for a few years. Sweden and Denmark are the least religious countries in the world in which only 30% of people believe in God. But the problem is that most people cannot live without an ideology. Ideology is like armor; it gives you immunity by persuading you that opposing opinions are wrong. Anybody who's ever tried to argue with a Swede about their feminism, welfare system or immigration policy knows what I'm talking about.

So, feminism is an ideology that takes advantage of the current ideological void in the developed world.

[Constitution45]

People will tell you different things.

The K/R selection theory can be applied. The most "forward thinking" countries tend to the most richest with highest comfortable standards of living. Meaning that mate selection no longer becomes about prioritising good provider qualities and characters of substance but more to do with animal lust.

All ideologies have their faults, although there are many good things to come out from the West, it doesn't mean that they are necessarily solid. This is why I find it interesting to see the authoritarian free market economies emerging from the East. They are in some ways taking the benefits of the liberalism but instead going down their own path, without the cultural ramifications which are in the long run unsustainable and carry a fiscal and human cost.

The most "civilised countries" have the habit of producing mental masturbators. I noticed anecdotally speaking that most marxists and socialists tend to come from wealthy backgrounds and families. The layman would say that this is because they received a better education and this results in them picking up on this complicated theory. But when you read the works from libertarian economists who are just as complex and intellectual, while seeing the fruits of both works. It becomes easy to assess, that they lack an understanding of how the world really plays out, how people really are to each other.

Ultimately I would say that the Anglosphere is the worst hit. I don't believe that France and Spain will get as bad as this, let me explain. As the above poster mentioned, sentiments stay the same even if the religion changes. France was exposed to cultural revolution and feminism strongly since the 1960s, if not more intensely than the U.K. The Anglosphere is mainly protestant in it's world view, and this corresponds with its own demise.

"Turning the other cheek" , "only the meek shall inherit the earth". The whole guilt sentiment really allowed "progressives" to actually regress the state institutions and successive cultural frameworks of the Anglosphere. Which is why the only thing keeping the U.K going is the innovation and past successes of previous men. Oh and ridiculous amounts of money coming in from foreign investors who are attracted by the innovation and past successes of previous British men.


Russia is an Orthodox country still, their outlook on relations between men and women is very different. Even if feminism was to form a precedent, it would still ultimately not fit in completely. Also going back to the previous point, these authoritarian free markets in the East, are not willing to let outside influences, cooperations, agitators, whine and complain until they get what they want. Between the years of 1919 and 1935, Russia experienced a full wave of sexual liberalisation, which became ultimately unsustainable. At first it was fun but after a while the illegitimate children running around, lack of fathers, was too much of a state burden and eventually this became crushed.

Personally I can't see it taking too much to formulate a change. People are very resilient, if there was a succession of economic downturns, patriarchy would have to be brought back. It may result in the end game of a lot of people, in terms of the dysfunctionality that such a form of social decay brings. But people will still be around. There is a movement of the new right coming strongly in Europe right now. I don't believe it will take off this instance, but perhaps in 10/20 years. There are talks that officially to combat the birth deficit of white Europeans, governments will have to implement economic incentives for families to start having more children.

The point is I don't think its entirely doom and gloom. Although individuals really need to make strong choices in the future to not feed into the ideology and all the damage that it brings.

[Pepini]

It serves the employers. Woman are more docile and obedient. Also if you put woman working you double the offer of man labour. Therefore the price of labour goes down. Like every other comodity. Lastly woman are still less prone to confrontation. Also it weakens man. So less convulsions. For the top of pyramide it's great. Of course the top totally rejects woman in any position. A family called Espírito Santo one of the wealthiest in Portugal had a rule: woman never conduct any business. So as Rothschild.

[turkishcandy]

Duedue explained it better. In short, removal of religion is corrolated with ''forward thinking'', advanced society, and unfortunately also with feminism. Italy and Spain are relatively more religious whereas the French tend to be more culturally/traditionally introverted and thus more resistant to degeneration. However, although it may not be exactly the type of feminism we see in the west, gender equality has been completed in Western Europe. It's just a matter of time until they get drunk with that newly achieved power and embrace Western feminism cuntology.

In other news, the new Swiss president who was elected 3 days ago:


Apart from being an obvious feminist, she is pro-immigration, as these 2 go hand in hand.

I hope I live long enough to see fascism take over Europe again as last resort to the immigration problem.

[player]

Feminism and its success is the result of:
a) The enormous historical success of Western men and
b) The feminine nature to be dissatisfied and always demanding more
c) The Fundamental Premise - eggs are scarce, sperm is cheap, so women are far more reproductively valuable than men while men are expendable

Read The Fate of Empires by Sir John Glubb (http://www.rexresearch.com/glubb/glubb-empire.pdf) - or at least the summary at the end.

A civilization requires great virtue to become hugely successful, but once it is very prosperous its citizens can survive without virtue, and so success leads to decadence and hedonism. Without hardship and adversity to forge young boys into masculine men, the West has had a few generations of spineless, emasculated males letting the dark side of feminine nature shit all over civilization.

This has happened before. But this time men have been far more successful than ever before, freeing women from their natural roles with timesaving household appliances, the pill, and safe & comfortable office jobs.

Prosperity is the problem because it leads to moral and spiritual decay - and hence allows toxic ideologies like feminism to take root.

Of course, this lack of virtue, this decadence, and these parasitic ideologies are starving the host. Feminism will lead to the economic and social collapse (or at least decline) of the nations it infects, as more and more men walk away from being hardworking providers.

Eventually the pendulum will temporarily swing back, probably via extreme hardship and millions dying. In a dangerous SHTF scenario traditional gender roles will make a comeback because masculinity will be the best way for men to survive (and keep their children alive) and femininity will be the best way for women to survive (and keep their children alive).

There are no feminists on a sinking ship.

[duedue]

(12-06-2014 08:43 AM)player Wrote:  

Of course, this lack of virtue, this decadence, and these parasitic ideologies are starving the host. Feminism will lead to the economic and social collapse (or at least decline) of the nations it infects, as more and more men walk away from being hardworking providers.

Eventually the pendulum will temporarily swing back, probably via extreme hardship and millions dying. In a dangerous SHTF scenario traditional gender roles will make a comeback because masculinity will be the best way for men to survive (and keep their children alive) and femininity will be the best way for women to survive (and keep their children alive).

There are no feminists on a sinking ship.

The guy at Singularity2050.com argues that this will happen as early as the end of this decade. (Google "misandry bubble".) This may look like wishful thinking as futurists are usually very optimistic about their predictions. But on the other hand feminism is becoming a heavier and heavier burden on the economy and may not be sustainable for long. Also feminist craze and hypocrisy (like in UVA rape case, gamergate and so many other incidents) turn some people against it each time. I'm so curious what the near future holds.

[Grange]

There's another reason: nobody understands success. No 20 year old women's studies major has any idea of the effort that went into setting up infrastructure, technology, finance, law, etc that enable her to eat an artisanal cupcake in one hand while texting on her iPhone in the other. It took thousands of years of billions of people's efforts (mainly men) to put these institutions in place. Almost everybody takes this for granted and doesn't bother to find out how/why it happened. The farther we advance, the less obvious men's efforts at setting up and maintaining civilizations are.

[rudebwoy]

Too my knowledge feminism was started in the 60s, Gloria Steinem was the poster child and we got women burning their bras. Years later it was revealed Steinem worked for the CIA, who implemented this to control the population.
Countries like Sweden have been used as testing grounds for these sort of "experiments".
People have got brainwashed by this, women have got their cake and now can eat it alone.
On the radio last week, they announced that companies now must have more women on the board of directors. I guess you can call that forward thinking. I don't see the trend being reversed, it is working too well.

[Foolsgo1d]

Western countries do not face catastrophe, famine, death cults, struggles on day-to-day basis.

It is easy to dive into a life of excess outside of work when all you have to worry about is when you're paid, what girl you want to fuck and what meal you'd like.

This breeds familiarity and a soft underbelly in a country. When you want to build armies you need to take reasonably stable, physically fit men and train them into killers.

Do you like that soft bunny rabbit? Snap its neck and gut it for yourself or have a warehouse do it?

Haul how many gallons of fresh water you need to your house to bathe in or have systems to pump it there for you? 1 litre of water = 1KG. If you need 1000 litres to survive and you need to haul it yourself, would this build character, determination and hardiness or allow you time to fuck around on social media bemoaning how your new Iphone hasn't arrived yet.

When the basics of life, food, water, roof over your head and safety are all taken care of by others or money earned you tend to lose focus on how difficult it can be to live.

The reason feminism will never take over developing countries is because the women there are not whining, stuck-up babies who can just call a tradesman to fix her boiler as she is on facebook.

This breeds feminism. It gives people time to develop ego's and mouth-piece blogs on issues they have no right to complain about.

Forward-thinking countries with regards to higher thinking always descend into a pit of excess.

[rudebwoy]

I spoke to a former forum member the other day, who spends a lot of time in FSU.
He was visiting one of these countries and met a nice young lady who was just 21, I believe almost half his age. She wanted to get married and start a family right away, that was her goal in life.

Compare that with the 19 year old intern I was speaking to the other day, she was told by her father that she doesn't have to take her future husbands name if she doesn't like it. WTF

Women are empowered, when this happens and they don't believe they need a man then we run into problems. This topic has been done to death.
But if this is what it is like to live in forward thinking countries, then shit I will pack my bags soon for the FSU.

[alexdagr81]

(12-06-2014 02:51 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

I spoke to a former forum member the other day, who spends a lot of time in FSU.
He was visiting one of these countries and met a nice young lady who was just 21, I believe almost half his age. She wanted to get married and start a family right away, that was her goal in life.

Compare that with the 19 year old intern I was speaking to the other day, she was told by her father that she doesn't have to take her future husbands name if she doesn't like it. WTF

Women are empowered, when this happens and they don't believe they need a man then we run into problems. This topic has been done to death.
But if this is what it is like to live in forward thinking countries, then shit I will pack my bags soon for the FSU.

Looks like a battle for who is the main man in her life. She may think she's in control, but her dad knows what he's doing. If any man allows her to keep her last name, he might as well suck her dad's dick.

[MidWest]

Because of movies like this:

^^^^ I just saw it yesterday with a girl and it was disgusting. A huge ego boost to American women and feminists by the way it shamed men.

[rudebwoy]

(12-06-2014 03:16 PM)alexdagr81 Wrote:  

(12-06-2014 02:51 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

I spoke to a former forum member the other day, who spends a lot of time in FSU.
He was visiting one of these countries and met a nice young lady who was just 21, I believe almost half his age. She wanted to get married and start a family right away, that was her goal in life.

Compare that with the 19 year old intern I was speaking to the other day, she was told by her father that she doesn't have to take her future husbands name if she doesn't like it. WTF

Women are empowered, when this happens and they don't believe they need a man then we run into problems. This topic has been done to death.
But if this is what it is like to live in forward thinking countries, then shit I will pack my bags soon for the FSU.

Looks like a battle for who is the main man in her life. She may think she's in control, but her dad knows what he's doing. If any man allows her to keep her last name, he might as well suck her dad's dick.

Her parents have different last names, so maybe that is where it came from.

[Foolsgo1d]

(12-06-2014 03:57 PM)MidWest Wrote:  

Because of movies like this:

^^^^ I just saw it yesterday with a girl and it was disgusting. A huge ego boost to American women and feminists by the way it shamed men.

Seeing as the film is out of cinemas I was curious and might of seen it. There is a big plot twist, is the film worth watching?

[Wahawahwah]

"Forward thinking" countries have societies consisting of members who are relatively higher up on Maslow's hierarchy of needs and therefore more open to "radical" ideas - ideas that may go against good sense. Add to that the fact that most men believe what they see to be true and a woman's penchant for manipulating men, and it becomes quite easy to brainwash an entire generation of men through an organized effort and collectively controlling media.



Take a man out of the so called "modern" western culture, tear him down, show him his own blood, take away his house, his job, all his worldly possessions. Pull him down to the absolute base level of his human condition, and leave him in the wilderness to survive.

He sees a hot girl, you think he is going to be fazed by approach anxiety, or bullshit around "respecting her choices",because there is a real "rape culture" in the world? You think he's going to be bogged down by white privilege, or male privilege, or "feel guilty" for what his fellow men have supposedly done to other women?

The only reason modern society is being bullshitted into believing a lot of this crap is because it is relatively comfortable and seeks to "be better". (Self esteem/self actualization sections of the pyramid).
As the current power imbalance between the sexes increases (at the everyman's level -- the elite will always be men or men-like women) and more men regress to their base states, as the current western society devolves initially into pathos and eventually into chaos, we shall revert back to common sense.

P.S. This also explains why blue pill men usually convert to the red pill after emotional/social/physical trauma...those unfortunate ones who dont get exposed to red pill beliefs eventually turn into misogynistic jerks or variations of MGTOW

[Dalaran1991]

Heap of wisdom in this thread. It's impressive how much people in the manosphere knows about history and cultures, as opposed to the empty propaganda feminists use.

To summarize what everyone has said, I guess it boils down to two things: the retreat of traditional ideology and the extreme material success of societies.

Almost all countries with functioning gender roles throughout history have very rigid ideology set, be it nationalism (Greek), Confucianism (China), feudalism (Middle Ages) and so on. Societies that descended into chaos usually are the ones undergoing great ideological change (think the Roman at the fall of their empires). Fucking damn shame that while people praise the advance of science they are trying to use an ideology like feminism that totally fucked up the scientific premises of the natural order of the world to fill the void.

Human mating strategy in nature and history was dictated by the economical principal. Now that girls "can" support themselves and no longer need a man's resources to survive, the whole status quo is fucked up. That said some countries are adapting better than others. I just hope the French and Italian dont succumb too soon.

You all seem to indicate that feminism is unsustainable and soon people will revert back to traditional roles, but the way US is going I'm afraid by then the situation will be fucked up beyond all repaired to actually wake people up. Experts saw the financial crisis of 2007 coming way before it came but could do nothing about it. I guess for you guys who are still in US the best strategy is just to pack your bag, get your plane ticket and enjoy watching the decline.

[8ball]

(12-06-2014 03:57 PM)MidWest Wrote:  

Because of movies like this:

^^^^ I just saw it yesterday with a girl and it was disgusting. A huge ego boost to American women and feminists by the way it shamed men.

What are you talking about? The movie was about a psychopath who frames her husband for her "disappearance". The movie dealt with media witch hunts, false rape accusation and it was criticized by all the leftist media outlets for being misogynistic.

Source

other source

another article

[Soberane]

[MidWest]

(12-06-2014 10:27 PM)8ball Wrote:  

(12-06-2014 03:57 PM)MidWest Wrote:  

Because of movies like this:

^^^^ I just saw it yesterday with a girl and it was disgusting. A huge ego boost to American women and feminists by the way it shamed men.

What are you talking about? The movie was about a psychopath who frames her husband for her "disappearance". The movie dealt with media witch hunts, false rape accusation and it was criticized by all the leftist media outlets for being misogynistic.

Source

other source

another article

If the left criticized it as "misogynist" then that shows you how far feminist have come. This movie is far from misogynist.

[alexdagr81]

(12-06-2014 04:05 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

(12-06-2014 03:16 PM)alexdagr81 Wrote:  

(12-06-2014 02:51 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

I spoke to a former forum member the other day, who spends a lot of time in FSU.
He was visiting one of these countries and met a nice young lady who was just 21, I believe almost half his age. She wanted to get married and start a family right away, that was her goal in life.

Compare that with the 19 year old intern I was speaking to the other day, she was told by her father that she doesn't have to take her future husbands name if she doesn't like it. WTF

Women are empowered, when this happens and they don't believe they need a man then we run into problems. This topic has been done to death.
But if this is what it is like to live in forward thinking countries, then shit I will pack my bags soon for the FSU.

Looks like a battle for who is the main man in her life. She may think she's in control, but her dad knows what he's doing. If any man allows her to keep her last name, he might as well suck her dad's dick.

Her parents have different last names, so maybe that is where it came from.

guess I gave dude too much credit, still...

[infowarrior1]

(12-06-2014 02:29 PM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  

Western countries do not face catastrophe, famine, death cults, struggles on day-to-day basis.

It is easy to dive into a life of excess outside of work when all you have to worry about is when you're paid, what girl you want to fuck and what meal you'd like.

This breeds familiarity and a soft underbelly in a country. When you want to build armies you need to take reasonably stable, physically fit men and train them into killers.

Do you like that soft bunny rabbit? Snap its neck and gut it for yourself or have a warehouse do it?

Haul how many gallons of fresh water you need to your house to bathe in or have systems to pump it there for you? 1 litre of water = 1KG. If you need 1000 litres to survive and you need to haul it yourself, would this build character, determination and hardiness or allow you time to fuck around on social media bemoaning how your new Iphone hasn't arrived yet.

When the basics of life, food, water, roof over your head and safety are all taken care of by others or money earned you tend to lose focus on how difficult it can be to live.

The reason feminism will never take over developing countries is because the women there are not whining, stuck-up babies who can just call a tradesman to fix her boiler as she is on facebook.

This breeds feminism. It gives people time to develop ego's and mouth-piece blogs on issues they have no right to complain about.

Forward-thinking countries with regards to higher thinking always descend into a pit of excess.

Perhaps feminism will never take over developing countries. However a cursory look at the Kurds, the feminist Kurdistan Worker's party and its corresponding PKK and YPG military(Which allows women to fight on the front lines) wings as well as the ''gender equal'' pershmerga may not put this beyond possibility. One doesn't need wealth to be feminist. Only that wealth gives feminists more power to wield.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Workers%27_Party

[philosophical_recovery]

(12-06-2014 11:23 PM)MidWest Wrote:  

(12-06-2014 10:27 PM)8ball Wrote:  

(12-06-2014 03:57 PM)MidWest Wrote:  

Because of movies like this:

^^^^ I just saw it yesterday with a girl and it was disgusting. A huge ego boost to American women and feminists by the way it shamed men.

What are you talking about? The movie was about a psychopath who frames her husband for her "disappearance". The movie dealt with media witch hunts, false rape accusation and it was criticized by all the leftist media outlets for being misogynistic.

Source

other source

another article

If the left criticized it as "misogynist" then that shows you how far feminist have come. This movie is far from misogynist.

Women can't be villains or lie about rape, because they never do bad things or lie about rape in real life. If you even hint at it, you are definitely a misogynist.

[Hades]

'Forward thinking' countries favor feminism because they can afford it.

If for some bizarre reason mankind discovered that the only way to get cancer was by eating caviar, what is presently a death diagnosis would become a status symbol.

[Saga]

First, much of the developed world has convinced itself that anything that makes money right now is good, and that anything that might impede profit is bad. Therefore, feminism is good (more workers, lower wages, more consumerism, more debt) and the family is bad. Is it easier to make a profit on junk food or a home-cooked meal? There's your microcosm for the whole of modern western society. Today, profit trumps everything: patriotism, freedom, religion, science, morality, tradition, aesthetics...these are seen alternately as irrelevant distractions or as useful tools by the market and by many politicians. Making money is the new center of all western life, and in the short-term feminism helps accomplish that. Long-term, it's a very different proposition.

While this was the original motivation, the political and business classes subsequently discovered further benefits from feminism: an easy and convenient excuse for creating scapegoats and division, a greater willingness to encourage and accept sweeping laws and workplace behavioral regulations, the degradation and overpricing of education (especially higher education), the coarsening of public discourse, the spread of nihilism (and by extension apathy) and narcissism (and by extension gullibility and delusion)...to name a few.

The second influence is how equality went from a general democratic principle to unquestionable dogma. Enlightenment thinkers and their successors talked about equality but in the sense of removing what they viewed as arbitrary and unnatural inequalities (aristocratic titles, enslavement and so on); beginning in the 1960s, however, "equality" became more an abstract absolute to be applied to anything and everything, and with single-minded zealotry. This was, we can be certain, a matter of intellectual laziness, and I think a byproduct of a youthful (that is to say naive) interpretation of Enlightenment ideals by the boomer generation, as well as insufficient tutelage to the contrary on the part of a sometimes left-leaning academy at the time (professors of this time were often the source of such views). Initially a trend peculiar to the political left-wing, more and more it grew beyond the boundaries of the left to gain currency in the mainstream. Today, the dogma of equality without regard for context or common sense is ubiquitous and practically unchallenged.

So in many ways, it's a strange and disastrous confluence of two hitherto opposing trends. Capitalism embraces feminism because it generates profits, and populism embraces feminism because of its fanaticism in absolute equality. At least that's my take.