[Hedonist94]

I apologize if this has been posted before.

The new laws make it legal to sell but illegal to purchase.

I have no personal stake in the matter and have never had any reason to visit prostitutes. Nevertheless it was quite interesting to see the conservative majority government band together with the feminist left to get the bill passed.

Here's an article by the Toronto Sun. It was published in June but the bill passed without any major amendments.

Quote:

OTTAWA — The government targets johns and pimps in new prostitution legislation introduced Wednesday while leaving hookers free to ply the world's oldest profession, as long as they do it away from children.

Justice Minister Peter MacKay says prostitutes won't be prosecuted under the Protection of Communities and Exploited Persons Act if they stay clear of places where minors could gather, such as schools, parks, pools, malls, churches, religious institutions and residential streets.

He said amendments to the Criminal Code come down hard on those who exploit women and girls, and for the first time in Canada's history the purchase of sex would become a crime.

"We are targeting johns and pimps, those that treat sex services as a commodity," MacKay said at a news conference.

The government will set aside $20 million in new funding for organizations to help those who were forced into the profession, but want out to start a new life.

MacKay said many are forced into the trade by a "complex array of societal ills such as violence, addiction, extortion, intimidation, poverty and human trafficking."

He said he wants to protect the most vulnerable "by going after the perpetrators, the perverts, those who are consumers of this degrading practice."

The legislation also criminalizes print and online advertising of sexual services, anyone who profits from the exploitation of others, and increases penalties related to child prostitution.

The Criminal Code is being amended after the Supreme Court struck down key provisions last December and gave the government one year to fix the law.

The changes MacKay announced as similar to the so-called Nordic model used by Sweden, Norway and Iceland, which criminalizes customers and pimps but not prostitutes, while funding social programs to help sex-trade workers.

But as MacKay said: "No model will ever make prostitution a safe endeavour."

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/06/04/joh...ution-bill

[Quintus Curtius]

Sounds like the bottom line of this is:

1. Shame and punish the men who patronize prostitutes.

2. Coddle, excuse, elevate, and pamper the women who chose to become prostitutes.

3. Give taxpayer money to women who chose to become prostitutes.

4. Remove personal responsibility from the equation when it comes to women choosing the profession of prostitution, but keep personal responsibility when it comes to punishing men who patronize prostitutes.

5. Rebrand every prostitute as a victim, deserving and worthy of sympathy, government subsidies, and favoritism.

Yeah, that's about it. Did I miss anything?

[scotian]

On behalf of the RVF Oil Sands Incels:

[dholland662]

It is not even a good model for the women since they now have to deal with guys who are not afraid of doing time.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

This travesty is not only hypocritical and unfair, but it actually endangers women. Check out stats about violence against sex workers in Nordic countries if you want to be shocked.

As usual, laws like this are not driven by the love towards women, but hatred towards men.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(11-11-2014 02:49 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

This travesty is not only hypocritical and unfair, but it actually endangers women. Check out stats about violence against sex workers in Nordic countries if you want to be shocked.

As usual, laws like this are not driven by the love towards women, but hatred towards men.

He he - you can always count on the lawmakers to make a shitty system even worse.

   

[getdownonit]

If women in the West truly cared about the women's welfare, they would push to legalize and regulate prostitution in the West. Keeping it illegal in the rich world endangers and enslaves truly desperate women in poor countries who have no recourse against being trafficked. If the average John could hit up the brothel downtown he wouldn't be flying to Thailand to buy cheap sex from sex slaves, and the market there would fail to support the deplorable conditions that exist there today.

[HighSpeed_LowDrag]

I've been following the news about this bill since it was first introduced.

The reason that this law was being introduced was because our Supreme Court originally struck down the Criminal Code statues relating to prostitution in this country as being unconstitutional since it made sex workers' workplaces more dangerous, in violation of their section 7 rights to "life, liberty, and security of the person" under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

A bit of background - before this case, the physical act of paying for sex was not illegal in Canada, but many of the activities surrounding it were. The three Criminal Code statutes found unconstitutional were related to "communicating for the purposes of prostitiution", "living off the avails of prostitution," and "keeping a bawdy house (brothel)."

The Conservative government was given one year by the Supreme Court to rewrite the prostitution laws to fix the problems that made the previous laws unconstitutional. Not wanting to upset the significant social-conservatives that make up much of the Conservative base, Stephen Harper (our prime minister) tried to introduce this Nordic model to Canada.

Sex-worker groups have already promised to launch another legal action against the legislation the second it comes into force - and the received wisdom amongst most constitutional scholars is that the new legislation will itself be found unconstitutional, for the same reasons as before (Province article.)

Harper likely knows this already, but doesn't want to pay the cost with the social-conservative base of legalizing prostitution. He'd much rather make the Supreme Court "make him do it."

So, in all likelihood, this legislation is just a bump in the road to full legalization of prostitution in Canada.

[Sp5]

(11-11-2014 02:49 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

This travesty is not only hypocritical and unfair, but it actually endangers women. Check out stats about violence against sex workers in Nordic countries if you want to be shocked.

As usual, laws like this are not driven by the love towards women, but hatred towards men.

I represented several street hookers in the past. All of them were drug addicts, mostly crack but some heroin. I only saw one arraignment of an escort in 15 years in the court, caught in a sting by the police calling numbers in escort ads in the local weekly entertainment rag.

The street hookers were treated pretty leniently, on first arrest the cases were dismissed on the condition of attending an AIDS prevention seminar. It was only after repeated arrests and not showing up to court that they would be held on high bail.

When a street hooker accumulated enough cases and was held in jail, the deal offered would always include some residential drug treatment program which was more attractive than spending a year more in the jail. And these women really needed drug treatment, anyways.

I was talking to one of them, asked her how she got into it. First it started with trying crack. Then she was walking on the street and some guy in a car offered her $10 to flash her tits at him. Then later on a guy offered money for a BJ, etc.

Prostitution was prosecuted more as a public order offense than a moral offense where I was. The problem was that women on the boundaries of where the streetwalkers were walking were always getting propositioned by sleazebags, and kids were picking up used condoms in school parking lots and thinking they were balloons.

Those public order problems are always going to be there, because some prostitutes will always be too fucked up to operate within any regulated legalized system.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(11-11-2014 04:25 AM)HighSpeed_LowDrag Wrote:  

...

So, in all likelihood, this legislation is just a bump in the road to full legalization of prostitution in Canada.

Frankly - based on my understanding of the global plutocracy I believe that complete legalization and state-control of prostitution is the goal in every country in the world. In the end the corporations are set up to take over similar to gambling in the 1980s in the US. Women will earn way less of course as became clear from examples in the Netherlands, but the government & the corporations will gladly take on the multi-billion $ business in stride. Now they hardly profit from it except for a few exceptions and some revenue that the police generates.

Quote:

Those public order problems are always going to be there, because some prostitutes will always be too fucked up to operate within any regulated legalized system.

Yes and no - with full legalization and corporations taking over the biz - prostitutes outside of the system will be shut down with major financial penalties or even major jail time if they do not comply.

Quote:

Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:
This travesty is not only hypocritical and unfair, but it actually endangers women. Check out stats about violence against sex workers in Nordic countries if you want to be shocked.

Those stats are due to the high influx of Muslim Immigrants into Scandinavian countries. In Norway the number of rapes committed by strangers is perpetrated by Muslim Immigrants only - seriously - they are supposed to make up almost 100% of the cases. Considering all unveiled women as sluts and not getting any is a bad concoction - the violence against sex-workers has likely similar roots. Not bashing Muslims here - some of the local Muslim leaders are already bashing their own there as they really see it as a problem.

[StrikeBack]

The SJWankers down in Australia are diddling themselves into a frenzy over this news, as they want that law here too.

I suppose it's essentially outlawing Provider Game?

[Deluge]

(11-11-2014 07:29 AM)StrikeBack Wrote:  

The SJWankers down in Australia are diddling themselves into a frenzy over this news, as they want that law here too.

I suppose it's essentially outlawing Provider Game?

Actually a lot of the feminists I (unfortunately) know are very pro-prostitution and very critical of "whorephobia". One feminist housemate of someone I know actually became an escort charging $500 an hour, I don't know how she even gets any business being an overweight 4/10. And no she doesn't see clients at their house... It's all pretty ironic because she was raped by a pedophile when was like 12 but I guess you'd have to be pretty fucked up mentally to decide to become a prostitute.

There's a big divide in feminism over this issue, between sex-positive feminists and the more puritanical ones who are more likely to academic feminists or dykes. The former sees prostitution as "empowering" women (as long as they are not coerced/trafficked) while the later see prostitution as classic patriarchal oppression. The later type of feminists have an unholy alliance with social/religious conservatives in trying to ban prostitution.

[Darius]

(11-11-2014 04:17 AM)getdownonit Wrote:  

If women in the West truly cared about the women's welfare, they would push to legalize and regulate prostitution in the West. Keeping it illegal in the rich world endangers and enslaves truly desperate women in poor countries who have no recourse against being trafficked. If the average John could hit up the brothel downtown he wouldn't be flying to Thailand to buy cheap sex from sex slaves, and the market there would fail to support the deplorable conditions that exist there today.

Prostitution was already legal in Canada. It was solicitation that was illegal.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(11-11-2014 07:41 AM)Deluge Wrote:  

There's a big divide in feminism over this issue, between sex-positive feminists and the more puritanical ones who are more likely to academic feminists or dykes. ...

Feminists are divided on all topics - some would want to kill 90% of men, while others are satisfied with 50% etc.

Nah - feminism only succeeds in issues which the plutocracy wants to achieve as well

- destruction of the family - yes - masses are easily controllable
- pushing into male work - yes - lower wages and more unemployment
- promiscuity while postponing child-bearing - yes - more family-destruction, lower population growth, more high quality pussy even for paper-Alphas
- real leadership of women in really important positions via some kind of pressure groups or laws - heck no - women as meaningless politicians will be allowed, but never as CEOs, VPs, real EU behind-the-scenes bureaucrats - fuck no those positions will be done based on meritocracy - even EU administrators have to go through grueling very difficult tests that most women do not manage - politicians can be morons, but not so the real movers behind them
- prostitution - fully legal - yes - enormous tax revenue and creation of corporations as an added bonus - plus the plutocracy is not opposed to it, since the plutocracy is Red Pill by default - feminism and Blue Pill is only for us

[scotian]

(11-11-2014 04:25 AM)HighSpeed_LowDrag Wrote:  

The Conservative government was given one year by the Supreme Court to rewrite the prostitution laws to fix the problems that made the previous laws unconstitutional. Not wanting to upset the significant social-conservatives that make up much of the Conservative base, Stephen Harper (our prime minister) tried to introduce this Nordic model to Canada.

I voted for the Conservatives and overall they are doing a decent job at running the country but laws like this which pander to his base of Western Canada red necks are what turn me off about this government. What I find especially repulsive are the law and order types and the government's decision to build bigger jails and fill them up by creating harsher laws and sentencing, while crime rates are decreasing. I hope that they don't start doing police busts in hotels to catch guys as they do in the USA and then of course, ruin the guy's life by publishing his photo in the newspaper, I think our police resources would be better spent elsewhere.

[therajraj]

If you make $50,000/year in Ontario that translates into roughly $150/day after taxes.

These girls charge $250-$300/hour.

So who here is the real victim - the beta male that has to put in 16 hours of work to have sex for an hour, or the whore who fucks 8 different men and leaves with $1500? Oh and did mention it's tax free?

1-2 years as prostitutes in their sexual prime and they can literally rack up thousands of dollars in savings.

[pants]

You have my deepest condolences.

Nigerian prostitutes grabbing your cock on the way into 7/11, if you accidentally gets horny the cops is on the other side ready to lock you up!

Fuck this world!

[jimukr104]

Quote:

These girls charge $250-$300/hour.

That is about double the USA rate. You guys pay so much to freeze your balls off.

[Downtown]

http://esnoticia.co/noticia-8790-swedens...his-before

[DarkTriad]

""We are targeting johns and pimps, those that treat sex services as a commodity,"

Aren't the people selling it also treating it a commodity?

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(11-11-2014 02:36 PM)Downtown Wrote:  

http://esnoticia.co/noticia-8790-swedens...his-before

Found the article somewhere else - the link does not work anymore.

Researched it a bit more now to see what is going on. It seems the Nordic model is being implemented in ever more countries with rather bad results.

Here a few choice quotes from the articles:

http://justicewomen.com/cj_sweden.html

Quote:

"In Sweden prostitution is regarded as an aspect of male violence against women and children. It is officially acknowledged as a form of exploitation of women and children and constitutes a significant social problem... gender equality will remain unattainable so long as men buy, sell and exploit women and children by prostituting them."

Feminist propaganda as usual.

Quote:

Prostitution is a form of male violence against women. The exploiter/buyers need to be punished, and the victim/prostitutes need to be helped. The Swedish government put up extensive funds and the country's police and prosecutors, from the top ranks down to the officer on the beat, were given intensive training and a clear message that the country meant business. It was then that the country quickly began to see the unequaled results.

To even work they had to indoctrinate the police into the gender crap ideology for years.

Quote:

Today, not only do the Swedish people continue to overwhelming support their country's approach to prostitution (80% of people in favor according to national opinion polls)

Yes - no doubt almost 100% of women and 80% of Beta White Knights.

But has it curbed prostitution really?

Quote:

According to some statistics, prostitution is almost back up to the level it was at when the law was introduced.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/au...rime-palme

Nope - biz as usual but changed.

What's the perception of prostitutes of the new laws?

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jinamoore/in-swe...g-one-isnt

Quote:

it also creates “the problem of telling women, ‘You don’t have a right to your own body.’ What are you allowed to do? What kind of decisions are you allowed to make? Are you allowed to work in an industry in India where you make, like, nothing? Are you allowed to make that decision?”

Yes - most women report that they want "out of prostitution" - what they don't tell you that they want out and still make at least 50% of what they make as a prostitute - that is a little tidbit they never ask prostitutes. As usual a woman cannot make a decision as an adult, but is treated like a child who is coerced into the work.

Another little added element here - they have started to treat prostitutes as mentally ill people and take away their children:

Quote:

Jakobsson told me the story of one young woman, named Eva Marree Smith Kullander but known by her street name, Petite Jasmine. She lost custody of her two children because of her line of work; her partner, who had a criminal record for violent behavior and had been issued restraining orders to stay away from two other women, was given custody instead.
A judge later ruled that a series of supervised visits might allow for joint custody. Jasmine’s partner would bring the children to a social worker’s office, and Jasmine would meet them there.
One day last July, her partner allegedly showed up at one visit with a knife. He then allegedly (he hasn’t been convicted) stabbed the social worker, who survived, and Jasmine, who did not.

Yeah - taking away the kids because she was a prostitute and giving it into the custody of an ex-con is not a good idea, but the liberal state of Sweden thinks otherwise.

Also they use excessive shaming tactics on men:

Quote:

And Sweden’s appetite for social shaming seems voracious. Though men can quietly pay a fine — the equivalent to two months’ salary, calibrated to an individual offender’s earnings — tabloids regularly expose men charged with purchasing sex. In 2010, Sweden’s justice minister suggested sending notice of alleged sex-buying to a suspect’s home in a purple envelope so that he couldn’t hide his derelict behavior from his family or his neighbors (or, for that matter, his mailman).
The weight of all that communal approbation creates severe stress during an arrest. “The men that [the police] caught were really, really, really upset. Not just upset — the whole world was falling down for them,” said Johan Christiansson, a social worker with the city of Stockholm. “They were crying and they were saying they were going to commit suicide.”

Yeah - and listen to this:

Quote:

Young Swedes think “paying for sex is pathetic; if you pay for sex you’re a loser,” said Kajsa Ekis Ekman, the author of Being and Being Bought. “Today if you come out and say you’ve gone to a prostitute, people would look at [you] like, ‘What? You can’t get it yourself? You can’t even talk to women? You can’t charm anyone?’”

I have no problem with that perception to a degree, but the difficulty is that they are not going to teach men Game at school. What about the incels and those who are too short, ugly or fat and will hardly ever get sex by any woman? I guess they should just suck it up according to the new feminist laws.

What about rape and sexual violence? You guessed it gents:

http://time.com/3005687/what-the-swedish...stitution/

Quote:

One recent study of data from Rhode Island—where a loophole allowed legal indoor prostitution in 2003-2009—found the state’s rape rate declined significantly over this period, especially in urban areas. (The gonorrhea rate also went down.) “Decriminalization could have potentially large social benefits for the population at large–not just sex market participants,

That's a real-life study from Rhode Island - US.

Quote:

Keeping prostitution illegal is done in the name of women, yet it only perpetuates violence against them while expanding the reach of the carceral state. Decriminalization would end the punitive system wherein sex workers—a disproportionately female, minority and transgender group—are being separated from their families, thrown in jail, and saddled with court costs and criminal records over blow-jobs. It would also allow them to take more measures of precaution (like organizing in brothels) and give them access to the legal protections available other workers (like being able to go to the police when they’ve been wronged). Yet for Swedish Model advocates, only the total eradication of the sex trade will “save” women from the violence and exploitation associated with it.

Yes - indeed, because of criminalizing the buyers, men do not want to meet the whores at their places, but drive them away to their home or in some remote location. And the women have to accept it - it's a serial killer's dream out there. In most countries the women either work in a brothel or even pay for security near their place.

And let us compare rape rates to Germany with complete decriminalization:

http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2013/11/do...hange.html

Quote:

Rape Rate per 100,000 population - rates reported to police

2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

Germany
10.610.7 9.9 9.8 9.1 8.8 8.9 9.4
Sweden
25.025.241.946.351.859.063.863.5

As was to be expected Sweden's rape rate rose by 300% even from the 2003 level - which was already 4 years into their "experiment". The shit follows suit with the Rhode Island experiment.

Quote:

Both the Swedish and the German laws originated in the feminist and left-leaning movements in these countries. But whereas progressive Swedes view their state as able to set positive goals, Germans (the Greens, especially) mistrust the state on questions of personal morality as a hypocritical and authoritarian threat to self-expression. . . .

Yeah - New Zealand completely legalized the sex market and all people there are satisfied with it.

But I guess if you want to go the Swedish model and actually believe that all prostitution is based in female subjugation (earning 10.000$/month) and there is no basis in male sex drive at all, since we have the sex drive of women of course. So you shame men for learning Game, you shame men for trying to do Daygame, you shame men for not getting any pussy (the lower 10% of men have a much harder time - even if they become Red Pill - never mind if they remain Blue Pill) and then finally you shame men for trying to buy sex. What happens to the Dark Triad men out there who can neither buy nor get pussy? How about guys like Eliott Rodgers?

Well - rape & sexual violence of course - plus quite a few murders & "missing" persons numbers - which I have no doubt is based on some men one day not taking it anymore.

But I guess that is beside the question here, since that Scandinavian model is a big "success". They only need to eradicate prostitution and let 30% of men live contentedly as celibates. I see no problem in that assumption - we are all equal aren't we?

[Shitlord]

Basically, women coddled and men punished because "equality."

[Wadsworth]

(11-10-2014 09:14 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

Sounds like the bottom line of this is:

1. Shame and punish the men who patronize prostitutes.

2. Coddle, excuse, elevate, and pamper the women who chose to become prostitutes.

3. Give taxpayer money to women who chose to become prostitutes.

4. Remove personal responsibility from the equation when it comes to women choosing the profession of prostitution, but keep personal responsibility when it comes to punishing men who patronize prostitutes.

5. Rebrand every prostitute as a victim, deserving and worthy of sympathy, government subsidies, and favoritism.

Yeah, that's about it. Did I miss anything?

6. Invite them on the CBC to talk about how they're victims.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(11-11-2014 04:21 PM)Wadsworth Wrote:  

(11-10-2014 09:14 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

Sounds like the bottom line of this is:

1. Shame and punish the men who patronize prostitutes.

2. Coddle, excuse, elevate, and pamper the women who chose to become prostitutes.

3. Give taxpayer money to women who chose to become prostitutes.

4. Remove personal responsibility from the equation when it comes to women choosing the profession of prostitution, but keep personal responsibility when it comes to punishing men who patronize prostitutes.

5. Rebrand every prostitute as a victim, deserving and worthy of sympathy, government subsidies, and favoritism.

Yeah, that's about it. Did I miss anything?

6. Invite them on the CBC to talk about how they're victims.

7. Effectively multiply real rape & violence against women - the dark side of the Scandinavian model.

[Bad Hussar]

(11-11-2014 05:13 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  

...

Prostitution was prosecuted more as a public order offense than a moral offense where I was. The problem was that women on the boundaries of where the streetwalkers were walking were always getting propositioned by sleazebags, and kids were picking up used condoms in school parking lots and thinking they were balloons.

Those public order problems are always going to be there, because some prostitutes will always be too fucked up to operate within any regulated legalized system.

I agree with this. In my opinion prostitution should be legal at the federal/national level, but each municipality should have the authority to restrict it's activities to certain areas or ban it altogether, with the local police enforcing the ordinances.

Is this even possible constitutionally? Something is legal, but a municipality is allowed to restrict or ban it?