[infowarrior1]

MGTOW and AVFM fallout:

[Basil Ransom]

This guy's voice sounds like one of those computerized text to speech services.

Anyhow, I guess Elam is branding himself a MGTOW now, but he is quite the opposite. He is an MRA flavored feminist. Feminists and MRAs seek to enlist the state to eliminate traditional sex roles. MGTOWs are more or less libertarians, and seek to keep the state out of such affairs as much as possible.

[infowarrior1]

(11-03-2014 01:08 AM)Basil Ransom Wrote:  

This guy's voice sounds like one of those computerized text to speech services.

Anyhow, I guess Elam is branding himself a MGTOW now, but he is quite the opposite. He is an MRA flavored feminist. Feminists and MRAs seek to enlist the state to eliminate traditional sex roles. MGTOWs are more or less libertarians, and seek to keep the state out of such affairs as much as possible.

That guy talking in the video is actually 36 years old.

And with regards to Paul Elam I agree. Note that he uses the same tactics of redefinition that leftists use in order to manipulate perception and hence shift the balance of power.

[dholland662]

I asked something like this a few days ago, but I was vague and came across as a troll trying to start something so I left it after getting a warning.

But I always wondered what sort of relationship they expect from men and women, MRAs like Elam I mean.
No doubt they did a lot of good against the tide, but men are never going to be a protected group in the same way as women. Women vastly prefer big government so it makes sense for the gov to favor them.

[infowarrior1]

(11-03-2014 02:38 AM)dholland662 Wrote:  

I asked something like this a few days ago, but I was vague and came across as a troll trying to start something so I left it after getting a warning.

But I always wondered what sort of relationship they expect from men and women, MRAs like Elam I mean.
No doubt they did a lot of good against the tide, but men are never going to be a protected group in the same way as women. Women vastly prefer big government so it makes sense for the gov to favor them.

The thing is if everyone is protected who is doing the protecting? And considering masculinity and the male experience it is men who have to face harsh reality head on. With many perishing in the process and the remainder becoming very good at what they are doing.

[vinman]

He has the biggest platform with AVFM, and he's probably claiming MGTOW to sell more books. He has about 4 or 5 women on staff at AVFM. That's very un- MGTOW.

[Maciano]

I never get this sectarianism, infighting over marginal differences signals unserious thinking. I thought MRAs wanted better laws concerning divorce, child custody and to treat rape as a crime in need of evidence if it comes to law (vs arrest based on suspiscion & hearsay). If they'd focus on that, they'd, in the end, become more influential, because society really is unfair to men in many of these cases.

Politics is the struggle over the control of the state. To get there, you'll need allies. An ally is someone you agree ~80% with -- not 100%, but enough.

[It_is_my_time]

Sandman is excellent. The backlash against this leftist/progressive/liberalism anti-male western govt is really picking up steam.

[IvanDrago]

Paul Elam gives me the creeps. His look, the way he speaks... everything. He puts out the same spooky vibe that greasy used car salesmen, cult leaders, child molesting priests and politicians put out.

[Basil Ransom]

"I never get this sectarianism, infighting over marginal differences signals unserious thinking. I thought MRAs wanted better laws concerning divorce, child custody and to treat rape as a crime in need of evidence if it comes to law (vs arrest based on suspiscion & hearsay). If they'd focus on that, they'd, in the end, become more influential, because society really is unfair to men in many of these cases."

You are confused, and wish others to be so.

MRAs and MGTOWs are polar opposites, ideologically speaking. One small example: ladies nights. MRAs have sued to stop them, due to some perceived injustice when these ladies nights are meant to benefit men to begin with. Meanwhile MGTOWs are content to let private businesses do as they may.

MRAs want to make men victims too (valorizing male victims of domestic abuse for God's sake), MGTOWs say fuck victimhood for everyone, and want to make everyone independent and responsible while keeping the hand of the law light.

[Maciano]

(11-03-2014 10:39 AM)Basil Ransom Wrote:  

"I never get this sectarianism, infighting over marginal differences signals unserious thinking. I thought MRAs wanted better laws concerning divorce, child custody and to treat rape as a crime in need of evidence if it comes to law (vs arrest based on suspiscion & hearsay). If they'd focus on that, they'd, in the end, become more influential, because society really is unfair to men in many of these cases."

You are confused, and wish others to be so.

MRAs and MGTOWs are polar opposites, ideologically speaking. One small example: ladies nights. MRAs have sued to stop them, due to some perceived injustice when these ladies nights are meant to benefit men to begin with. Meanwhile MGTOWs are content to let private businesses do as they may.

MRAs want to make men victims too (valorizing male victims of domestic abuse for God's sake), MGTOWs say fuck victimhood for everyone, and want to make everyone independent and responsible while keeping the hand of the law light.

I think you should try to achieve what's really important to all interested parties instead of focusing on minor issues that divide you.

I'd choose pragmatism over ideological purity any day.

[IvanDrago]

(11-03-2014 04:03 PM)Maciano Wrote:  

I think you should try to achieve what's really important to all interested parties instead of focusing on minor issues that divide you.

I'd choose pragmatism over ideological purity any day.

Govt. marriage is not a minor issue.

[dholland662]

(11-03-2014 06:38 AM)infowarrior1 Wrote:  

(11-03-2014 02:38 AM)dholland662 Wrote:  

I asked something like this a few days ago, but I was vague and came across as a troll trying to start something so I left it after getting a warning.

But I always wondered what sort of relationship they expect from men and women, MRAs like Elam I mean.
No doubt they did a lot of good against the tide, but men are never going to be a protected group in the same way as women. Women vastly prefer big government so it makes sense for the gov to favor them.

The thing is if everyone is protected who is doing the protecting? And considering masculinity and the male experience it is men who have to face harsh reality head on. With many perishing in the process and the remainder becoming very good at what they are doing.

I know. I agree. To risk sounding off a platitude, the world is a dangerous place

[WestIndianArchie]

(11-03-2014 10:31 AM)IvanDrago Wrote:  

Paul Elam gives me the creeps. His look, the way he speaks... everything. He puts out the same spooky vibe that greasy used car salesmen, cult leaders, child molesting priests and politicians put out.

Creeps?
Vibe?

I'm all for adopting Feminist smear tactics to use against them...but there's definitely a limit.

WIA

[IvanDrago]

(11-03-2014 09:48 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

(11-03-2014 10:31 AM)IvanDrago Wrote:  

Paul Elam gives me the creeps. His look, the way he speaks... everything. He puts out the same spooky vibe that greasy used car salesmen, cult leaders, child molesting priests and politicians put out.

Creeps?
Vibe?

I'm all for adopting Feminist smear tactics to use against them...but there's definitely a limit.

WIA

Point taken and lesson learned.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(11-03-2014 07:49 AM)Maciano Wrote:  

...

Politics is the struggle over the control of the state. To get there, you'll need allies. An ally is someone you agree ~80% with -- not 100%, but enough.

Frankly MRAs, MGTOWs, PUAs as well as many Game-aware men have way more in common than it seems. If the MRA movement was sincere in rallying the men behind support of some top-down change, then they would try to reach out to all Red Pill groups - even their most hated specimen - those nefarious Game-practitioners. The reason is really as you stated correctly @Maciano - we all agree on over 80% of our perceptions of laws and feminism.

Instead they furiously attack everyone not playing their fiddle. They invite women into their midst and give them almost more important positions than themselves.

A movement will never succeed when they lash out at everyone instantly after being criticized only slightly - I only have to think about the Matt Forney article after which Paul Elam himself wrote an angry rebuttal. Why? Why take offense at all? You will need the support of every Red Pill man out there as we all agree that we would like to change something like the crazy divorce laws. It is about as dumb as a platoon firing at each other while being completely surrounded by Vietkong. Top down reform will fail.

[The Reactionary Tree]

The reason MRAs attack the red pill crowd is because they are essentially progressives. So many of them are leftists and "egalitarians." They want to push for more government intervention into the gender wars to help aid men. It will never work. They are essentially the male version of feminists in a lot of ways. Too many of them are too stupid to realize that the SJWs and Cultural Marxists have men labeled as the bad guys so their leftist tactics to achieve "equality" for males will never materialize.

The Red Pill crowd is more effective than the MRAs. At least the red pill is enriching men's lives with the truth instead of just complaining about feminists all day.

[Lemmo]

(11-03-2014 10:39 AM)Basil Ransom Wrote:  

"I never get this sectarianism, infighting over marginal differences signals unserious thinking. I thought MRAs wanted better laws concerning divorce, child custody and to treat rape as a crime in need of evidence if it comes to law (vs arrest based on suspiscion & hearsay). If they'd focus on that, they'd, in the end, become more influential, because society really is unfair to men in many of these cases."

You are confused, and wish others to be so.

MRAs and MGTOWs are polar opposites, ideologically speaking. One small example: ladies nights. MRAs have sued to stop them, due to some perceived injustice when these ladies nights are meant to benefit men to begin with. Meanwhile MGTOWs are content to let private businesses do as they may.

MRAs want to make men victims too (valorizing male victims of domestic abuse for God's sake), MGTOWs say fuck victimhood for everyone, and want to make everyone independent and responsible while keeping the hand of the law light.

Yeah, I agree with the substance of many of his positions but he completely adopts the language of the left and victim/weakness worship to argue his points. I stopped reading.

[infowarrior1]

(11-07-2014 03:12 PM)The Reactionary Tree Wrote:  

The reason MRAs attack the red pill crowd is because they are essentially progressives. So many of them are leftists and "egalitarians." They want to push for more government intervention into the gender wars to help aid men. It will never work. They are essentially the male version of feminists in a lot of ways. Too many of them are too stupid to realize that the SJWs and Cultural Marxists have men labeled as the bad guys so their leftist tactics to achieve "equality" for males will never materialize.

The Red Pill crowd is more effective than the MRAs. At least the red pill is enriching men's lives with the truth instead of just complaining about feminists all day.

I am actually thankful that men are not made another victim class. What could be more pathetic than male professional victimhood?

[dholland662]

RockingMrE noted this trend a while ago. I will just post some links.
He's married and the MRA (and some MGTOW) crowd said they couldn't wait for him to get divorced and fucked over apparently. Says a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cg9vWmx7...e=youtu.be

http://www.rockingphilosophy.com/2013/03...o-mra.html

http://www.rockingphilosophy.com/2012/06...festo.html

http://www.rockingphilosophy.com/2013/09...alues.html

[Royale]

As much as I like and respect the MGTOW movement (hell, even I harbor/ agree with some of their tendencies), one thing never made sense to me. Browsing their forums, reddit page, and blogs is an interesting sight to see. While majority of the people who post in those mediums are liberated from whatever societal ills plagued their lives, there are still some members amongst that ilk that spew tons of hatred and bitterness. This content includes:

- Rants about how women in the West suck, even though they've sworn off them

- How dudes using the acronym are not "true" MGTOW

- How if you're not going "ghost", then you can't effectively claim MGTOW as your lifestyle choice

- If you still want to have sex, you're not an MGTOW

- How Paul Elam and his AVFM marauders are using the term to describe something that's not what MGTOW is

Last I checked, I thought it was about a man going his OWN way. Why give a fuck that people are using aspects of the philosophy to cater to their own personal relativity? If you are "going your own way", why would any of this bother you?

Look, I'm not saying that you shouldn't get together and talk about how MGTOW is meaningful to you. But complaining about the issues listed above seems trivial to me.

Right now, I'm working on finishing school and saving some money so I can move to Asia. The AVFM/MGTOW crusade to change the West holds absolutely no significance to me.

[Vaun]

(11-07-2014 08:27 PM)infowarrior1 Wrote:  

(11-07-2014 03:12 PM)The Reactionary Tree Wrote:  

The reason MRAs attack the red pill crowd is because they are essentially progressives. So many of them are leftists and "egalitarians." They want to push for more government intervention into the gender wars to help aid men. It will never work. They are essentially the male version of feminists in a lot of ways. Too many of them are too stupid to realize that the SJWs and Cultural Marxists have men labeled as the bad guys so their leftist tactics to achieve "equality" for males will never materialize.

The Red Pill crowd is more effective than the MRAs. At least the red pill is enriching men's lives with the truth instead of just complaining about feminists all day.

I am actually thankful that men are not made another victim class. What could be more pathetic than male professional victimhood?

There is also the anti child support agenda. Literally, increase daddy's time, and do everything necessary to minimize and outright remove child support. Peel back the layer on some of these guys and look at their messages and personal ulterior motives.

[Days of Broken Arrows]

I don't care about MRAs, MGTOWs, or any of that.

I do care about issues affecting men and boys, though, and I think Elam and company deserve props for what they do in that area. A good example is their staging of the men's conference in Detroit this summer, which made Time magazine.

It doesn't matter if we agree with it all. The important thing is that he disrupted the media's agenda and forced them to take a break from their 24/7 "war on women" script and acknowledge there are problems in these areas.

The problem with A Voice for Men comes down to two things, both of which moderators clamp down in here:

1). Constant in-fighting and/or petty battles with people. This turns off outsiders who are interested in larger issues and/or trying to figure what they're all about. It's one thing to take down a Jezebel writer or YouTube star once in a while to make a specific point. It's another to battle people constantly -- especially people the general public has never heard of.

2). The quality of the writing is poor. Often, blog posts start with what looks like it should be the third paragraph. Ideas are not explained properly, references are obscure, and the focus is thrown by too many asides and digressions. I've been reading manosphere blogs since '07 and even I'll go over there and think "What are they talking about?" It's like walking into a movie a half hour after it starts.

But as I said, I'm inclined not to come down too heavy on the site or Elam. He uses his real name, has helped define some of the ideas we speak of here, and is willing to put himself out there. I just think there is room for improvement.

[Vaun]

(11-08-2014 07:36 AM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  

2). The quality of the writing is poor. Often, blog posts start with what looks like it should be the third paragraph. Ideas are not explained properly, references are obscure, and the focus is thrown by too many asides and digressions. I've been reading manosphere blogs since '07 and even I'll go over there and think "What are they talking about?" It's like walking into a movie a half hour after it starts.

But as I said, I'm inclined not to come down too heavy on the site or Elam. He uses his real name, has helped define some of the ideas we speak of here, and is willing to put himself out there. I just think there is room for improvement.

I would agree. Much of the writing is preaching to the choir, starting with the assumption the reader is one of them, or completely and totally bought in to their argument. I feel like they could take a step back and educate more, as I see with ROK.

[DrewP]

(11-03-2014 07:49 AM)Maciano Wrote:  

I never get this sectarianism, infighting over marginal differences signals unserious thinking. I thought MRAs wanted better laws concerning divorce, child custody and to treat rape as a crime in need of evidence if it comes to law (vs arrest based on suspiscion & hearsay). If they'd focus on that, they'd, in the end, become more influential, because society really is unfair to men in many of these cases.

Politics is the struggle over the control of the state. To get there, you'll need allies. An ally is someone you agree ~80% with -- not 100%, but enough.

That may be, but I never understood how MRAs could possibly summarize their ideology without sounding like complete hypocrites.

MRA: "I hate feminists, they're always trying to play the victim card and it's pathetic."
"So what do you believe?"
MRA: "It's actually we MEN who are victimized by society."

That's never going to fly with the general populace.