[Seth_Rose]

It's been interesting to watch the direction Turkey is going in. It will be even more interesting to see where they will be in 5-10 years with all the events going on in that country and that region (Erdogan, ISIS, Israel, Russia).

This new ban represents what appears to be Turkey's increasingly conservative society.

Quote:

Turkey’s government has banned all school pupils nationwide from having tattoos or body piercings in a new dress code deemed oppressive and unenforceable, according to the law’s critics.

While tattoos are not widespread among older generations, they have seen a surge in popularity amongst the young and secular sectors of society.

The measure, imposed by the government and published in the Official Gazette on Saturday, also prohibited a number of other things such as dyeing hair, wearing makeup and moustaches and beards for boys, according to local media reports.

http://rt.com/news/191340-turkey-tattoo-piercing-ban/

[lefonque]

Do you know that Usa has supported (and still supporting) islamists in Turkey for long time ?

[Feisbook Control]

I don't think this is a bad thing at all.

I went to a private school in the 80s/90s. Back then, piercings didn't exist (they must have existed in a very tiny subset of the population somewhere, but I don't know where) and tattoos were most definitely not something teenagers got, even amongst the working class. Tattoos were something associated with criminals, motorcycle gangs and the navy.

Anyway, my school had very strict hair and uniform policies. We weren't allowed to have hair over our eyebrows or below our collars at the back. We weren't allowed to wear excessive hair gel or hairspray to hide the length of our hair. Sideburns were limited to 2cm, and we couldn't have any other facial hair. We had to wear our blazers, ties (with the top buttons of our shirts fastened) and school shoes at all times (so no sports shoes unless in full sporting uniform). If we wore anything under our white school shirts it could not be visible through our shirts. Members of staff all wore full suits, except P.E. teachers. Members of staff would patrol the major thoroughfares away from the school after school, and one would go to the local train station and onto the platform to check uniforms. You could be told to get a haircut. Back in the day, they actually used to give you a haircut then and there and then bill your parents.

Of course, at the time, we all hated these rules (I was walking home in the stifling Australian hear in December and wasn't wearing my blazer and the school accountant stopped his car and told me to put it on!). Immediately after we finished school, many of us grew our hair long, grew facial hair and dressed down -- it was the days of grunge, after all -- yet slowly, but surely, I suspect most of us have come to understand and appreciate why our school was like that and how much society has degenerated since.

[Faust]

"Do you know that Usa has supported (and still supporting) islamists in Turkey for long time ?"

I don't know this. In fact, I've never heard anything about it.
Can you tell me more?

[turkishcandy]

The youth in Turkey is divided into 2 groups. On one hand you have the islamists who cover their head and who are against drinking, drugs, sex, partying and any social activity that involves both genders. They live by quran and vote for the conservatives. On the other hand you have a degenerate group who defies all religious and traditional rules. They are pro-gay, pro-feminist, pro-slutdom, pro-alcohol&soft drugs and of course tattoos&piercings. This polarization is due to the lack of non-religious traditional values that hold a society together even for non-believers. So when the religion is out of the picture for a young Turkish, he/she goes to the other extreme without stopping to think for a second.

I don't believe in anything religious but even I can see the wrong thing in trashing your body with ugly tattoos and piercings and ending up looking like a cum-receptacle white-trash in a desperate attemp to stand out from the others and to mimic TV characters. The second group in Turkey doesn't see this because any argument against their degenerate choices is perceived as religious and oppressing. You couldn't argue with them about this without being called ''close-minded''.

So the problem is much beyond tattoo ban or alcohol prohibition or porn ban (each and every porn site is banned in Turkey) etc. The traditional values are not being passed on to half of the last 2 generations. Turkey is like a medieval country trying to hold it together in a globalizing world. And Islam is a tough pill to swallow. So the liberals and conseratives seem like they are from different galaxies. Anyone over 30 will tell you it's probably a bad idea to get a visible tattoo, whether it's due to religious reasons or just common sense, but the youth will be either religiously against it or totally approve and encourage it. Same goes for alcohol, sex out of wedlock, drugs, dating, abortion, feminism, LGBT rights etc. We can't seem to find the midpoint.

[lefonque]

(09-28-2014 10:48 PM)Faust Wrote:  

"Do you know that Usa has supported (and still supporting) islamists in Turkey for long time ?"

I don't know this. In fact, I've never heard anything about it.
Can you tell me more?

Yes , i may try & apologies for spelling mistakes .. Long story short ,it all started back in the cold war days .. Like in Afganistan. They backed islamists cause of commies.Our world famous scholar Fetullah Gulen founded his first school after the 1980 coup in turkey . I thınk now he has more han 500 high schools and 6 universities in 92 countries all around te world including U.s.
Some of the former ussr countries banned his schools because they're related to Cia.

For example , While most of the nationalists and leftists were jailed,tortured and killed in 1980 which was the third coup in Turkish Republics history , nothing happened to the islamists . They became stronger .
Erdogan was banned from politics back in the days when his party had a clear victory against leftists Chp in 2002.
Surprisingly by the help of the opposition party and its leader has made a change in 2003 and aftr that he had been elected . You know his story i think ..

[lskdfjldsf]

Better to have a conservative Islamic society in Turkey, held at arms length, than a moderate one benefiting from EU membership.
In terms of immigration, Turkey is the Mexico of Germany, except Mexicans actually integrate to some extent.

[turkishcandy]

(09-29-2014 12:27 AM)Blick Mang Wrote:  

Better to have a conservative Islamic society in Turkey, held at arms length, than a moderate one benefiting from EU membership.
In terms of immigration, Turkey is the Mexico of Germany, except Mexicans actually integrate to some extent.

I agree about the immigration. But Turkey is very close to being visa-free. I'm already visa-free due to special passport. So after that point membership won't make things much worse for EU, considering the economy is doing good now.

[lefonque]

(09-28-2014 11:37 PM)turkishcandy Wrote:  

The youth in Turkey is divided into 2 groups. On one hand you have the islamists who cover their head and who are against drinking, drugs, sex, partying and any social activity that involves both genders. They live by quran and vote for the conservatives. On the other hand you have a degenerate group who defies all religious and traditional rules. They are pro-gay, pro-feminist, pro-slutdom, pro-alcohol&soft drugs and of course tattoos&piercings. This polarization is due to the lack of non-religious traditional values that hold a society together even for non-believers. So when the religion is out of the picture for a young Turkish, he/she goes to the other extreme without stopping to think for a second.

I don't believe in anything religious but even I can see the wrong thing in trashing your body with ugly tattoos and piercings and ending up looking like a cum-receptacle white-trash in a desperate attemp to stand out from the others and to mimic TV characters. The second group in Turkey doesn't see this because any argument against their degenerate choices is perceived as religious and oppressing. You couldn't argue with them about this without being called ''close-minded''.

So the problem is much beyond tattoo ban or alcohol prohibition or porn ban (each and every porn site is banned in Turkey) etc. The traditional values are not being passed on to half of the last 2 generations. Turkey is like a medieval country trying to hold it together in a globalizing world. And Islam is a tough pill to swallow. So the liberals and conseratives seem like they are from different galaxies. Anyone over 30 will tell you it's probably a bad idea to get a visible tattoo, whether it's due to religious reasons or just common sense, but the youth will be either religiously against it or totally approve and encourage it. Same goes for alcohol, sex out of wedlock, drugs, dating, abortion, feminism, LGBT rights etc. We can't seem to find the midpoint.

Please add islamists kinda people too , who are not religious just using religion to rob the country and take advantage of people .. I have seen many so called islamist businessmen who startd drinking right after they got in to the plane.Most of them smoke pot too (like most of the arabs). and please lets not argue about sex before marriage , ever1 here knows that the everage joe in turkey is ready to fuck a 50 years old fatty .

[Quintus Curtius]

Good for them. Finally, someone has to try to stop this nonsense.

Maybe we should be thanking Muslims instead of bashing them.

[kaotic]

So...we want a conservative muslim society...who knows how far it will go.

But we want a secular muslim society...which can include booze piercings and tattoos.

Where do we draw the line, what's the medium, what's extreme, what's too liberal ?

[la_mode]

I really doubt Turkey has a problem with overtattooed/pierced youth. It's basically them announcing they condemn this sort of behavior on everyone.

Even in the US, the majority of American kids aren't getting sleeves and gauges until after high school. Yes, there are some alternative kids who do, but it's not a large percent by any means.

[TheWastelander]

(09-29-2014 06:39 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

Good for them. Finally, someone has to try to stop this nonsense.

Maybe we should be thanking Muslims instead of bashing them.

As long as they don't try to destroy Turkey's moderate state secularism.

[berserk]

(09-28-2014 11:37 PM)turkishcandy Wrote:  

The youth in Turkey is divided into 2 groups. On one hand you have the islamists who cover their head and who are against drinking, drugs, sex, partying and any social activity that involves both genders. They live by quran and vote for the conservatives. On the other hand you have a degenerate group who defies all religious and traditional rules. They are pro-gay, pro-feminist, pro-slutdom, pro-alcohol&soft drugs and of course tattoos&piercings. This polarization is due to the lack of non-religious traditional values that hold a society together even for non-believers. So when the religion is out of the picture for a young Turkish, he/she goes to the other extreme without stopping to think for a second.

This is interesting, but I find it hard to believe that your grouping is correct. It is more likely that social (islamic) control is so powerful in Turkey, that only the most deviant break out.

Moderation in vice and sex seems to be a concept that is absent in the minds of that region. How do Christian turks behave? Are they all pro-gay, drug addicts who whore around?

[turkishcandy]

What started all the controversy and eventually led to this ban:
Previous PM current President Erdogan (conservative leader) criticized this 18 year old football player on his tattoos.

He said something like: ''What's with those tattoos? Why are you harming your body like this? Don't try to mimic foreigners. It can get you skin cancer, God forbid.''
He sounded pretty reasonable to me. But the liberals protested against him and started hastags like ''Stay away from my body'' ''My body my freedom''.

This ban is practically unenforcable if you don't have visible tattoos in your hands or face. The rest of your body is already covered by the school dress-code. So I don't see the big deal about this. Interestingly, I was educated in an American school with American headmaster and with semi-free dress-code and even there it was forbidden to have visible tattoos. Now the rest of the schools in Turkey merely adapted to this rule.

[tomtud]

Being Turkish in Europe isn't a cake walk. You have some of their compatriots or government officials encouraging them to not integrate, to keep their identity. While others want to integrate and be productive citizens in their new countries.

I see nothing wrong with keeping public schools up to a standard in etiquette.

[lefonque]

(09-29-2014 07:10 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

(09-29-2014 06:39 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

Good for them. Finally, someone has to try to stop this nonsense.

Maybe we should be thanking Muslims instead of bashing them.

As long as they don't try to destroy Turkey's moderate state secularism.

You think its a secular state , anymore ?

[turkishcandy]

(09-29-2014 07:13 PM)berserk Wrote:  

(09-28-2014 11:37 PM)turkishcandy Wrote:  

The youth in Turkey is divided into 2 groups. On one hand you have the islamists who cover their head and who are against drinking, drugs, sex, partying and any social activity that involves both genders. They live by quran and vote for the conservatives. On the other hand you have a degenerate group who defies all religious and traditional rules. They are pro-gay, pro-feminist, pro-slutdom, pro-alcohol&soft drugs and of course tattoos&piercings. This polarization is due to the lack of non-religious traditional values that hold a society together even for non-believers. So when the religion is out of the picture for a young Turkish, he/she goes to the other extreme without stopping to think for a second.

This is interesting, but I find it hard to believe that your grouping is correct. It is more likely that social (islamic) control is so powerful in Turkey, that only the most deviant break out.

Moderation in vice and sex seems to be a concept that is absent in the minds of that region. How do Christian turks behave? Are they all pro-gay, drug addicts who whore around?

There are 2 things to know about Turkish society. If you understand these, you are half-way through understanding Turkish politics.

1) The society is extremely polarized. We came to the edge of civil war 35 years ago, only a military coup prevented it. Now, it's like there are not conservatives and liberals, instead there are islamists and progressivists. For example, you would think Turkey is much more conservative than EE countries like Lithuania, Serbia, Poland, Ukraine. But for many years there is a gay parade being held in Istanbul's center every year and it receives 0, absolutely zero protests. Not a single soul went there and held a protesting sign. In countries like Serbia, Lithuania and Poland there are many more protestors than the participants whereas in Ukraine it doesn't exist. In such a 'powerfully' conservative society, you would expect the opposite. But it's not, because the islamists don't really care about LGBTs and the progressivists are all for it. Same goes for feminism and abortion. Feminism faces no criticism in Turkey whereas abortion is legal and not criticized by the public. Also, in Turkey conservatives don't protest. Workers, liberals and separatists do. When conservatives protest, it's a riot followed by a massacre. It happened in 1993, 1978 and a few times before that. Sunni Muslims butchered non-Sunni's every time.

2) There are 2 major and 2 minor groups (from biggest to smallest): conservatives, liberals, nationalists and separatists (Kurds). The conservatives have been on the rise for the last 12 years and this pushes the liberals to the other extreme. In June 2013 there were mass protests in Istanbul and many other cities against the conservative regime, 5 people died, but it didn't accomplish anything. Now the liberals are too sensitive about any signs of change in the society that is remotely conservative-ish.

Christian Turks? I never heard of such thing.

[Sebastian]

Yeah I used to go to Boys only high school. I wore uniforms and cut my hair short. Obviously no piercings, tattoos (you kidding me), no perfume, no gums in class, can't walk like thugs in front of teachers OR you will get beaten badly.

When I tell American friends about it, they get shocked and thank their Freedom.

I agree with such restrictions now. (maybe I am grown up or since I don't have to deal with it anymore)

Here is the difference though. When my son tries to do one of those bad things and doesn't listen to me, I can Discipline him (probably not on american soil especially in a physical manner)
What about those friends who got shocked about my experience? their kid does all of those things and tell their parents 'Fuck you I am 16', what can they do?

[lefonque]

(09-29-2014 07:15 PM)turkishcandy Wrote:  

What started all the controversy and eventually led to this ban:
Previous PM current President Erdogan (conservative leader) criticized this 18 year old football player on his tattoos.

He said something like: ''What's with those tattoos? Why are you harming your body like this? Don't try to mimic foreigners. It can get you skin cancer, God forbid.''
He sounded pretty reasonable to me. But the liberals protested against him and started hastags like ''Stay away from my body'' ''My body my freedom''.

This ban is practically unenforcable if you don't have visible tattoos in your hands or face. The rest of your body is already covered by the school dress-code. So I don't see the big deal about this. Interestingly, I was educated in an American school with American headmaster and with semi-free dress-code and even there it was forbidden to have visible tattoos. Now the rest of the schools in Turkey merely adapted to this rule.

Lets forget those liberals and tattoos but think about armenian,jewish and other non muslim kids who were enrolled to imam hatip schools which provide islamic religious education ?
Do you think they are over reacting ?

[TheWastelander]

(09-29-2014 07:32 PM)lefonque Wrote:  

(09-29-2014 07:10 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

(09-29-2014 06:39 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

Good for them. Finally, someone has to try to stop this nonsense.

Maybe we should be thanking Muslims instead of bashing them.

As long as they don't try to destroy Turkey's moderate state secularism.

You think its a secular state , anymore ?

I'm not sure. But they seem to try to keep a lid on the more radical elements.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[lefonque]

(09-29-2014 07:50 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

(09-29-2014 07:32 PM)lefonque Wrote:  

(09-29-2014 07:10 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

(09-29-2014 06:39 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

Good for them. Finally, someone has to try to stop this nonsense.

Maybe we should be thanking Muslims instead of bashing them.

As long as they don't try to destroy Turkey's moderate state secularism.

You think its a secular state , anymore ?

I'm not sure. But they seem to try to keep a lid on the more radical elements.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Well, thanx to Mr.Biden ;
http://youtu.be/rih_6etlCPI?t=18s

[lskdfjldsf]

Just got back from a trip to Turkey last week. If you have tattoos, you will be stared at.

[Foolsgo1d]

I dont think it is in the interests of anyone on this board for something like this to occur with such drastic and draconian fashion.

This sort of thing turns into mission creep. We have anti-smoking laws in the UK which are now being extended to include parks. Open parks I must add. Its is a method of control.

Now whilst I abhor piercings and tatts, feminism and the like, bossing people around makes it worse. I dont want to see people imprisoned because they want a rose on their shoulder. We do not live in the middle ages for fucks sake.

Besides, we here know tatts and piercings are the #1 sign of "I am a slut, fuck me". Do players want it to be harder to spot sluts?

It may be seen as degenerative but an all out ban on these things does not lead down a good road.

[SteveMcMahon]

(09-28-2014 10:47 PM)Feisbook Control Wrote:  

I don't think this is a bad thing at all.

I went to a private school in the 80s/90s. Back then, piercings didn't exist (they must have existed in a very tiny subset of the population somewhere, but I don't know where) and tattoos were most definitely not something teenagers got, even amongst the working class. Tattoos were something associated with criminals, motorcycle gangs and the navy.

Anyway, my school had very strict hair and uniform policies. We weren't allowed to have hair over our eyebrows or below our collars at the back. We weren't allowed to wear excessive hair gel or hairspray to hide the length of our hair. Sideburns were limited to 2cm, and we couldn't have any other facial hair. We had to wear our blazers, ties (with the top buttons of our shirts fastened) and school shoes at all times (so no sports shoes unless in full sporting uniform). If we wore anything under our white school shirts it could not be visible through our shirts. Members of staff all wore full suits, except P.E. teachers. Members of staff would patrol the major thoroughfares away from the school after school, and one would go to the local train station and onto the platform to check uniforms. You could be told to get a haircut. Back in the day, they actually used to give you a haircut then and there and then bill your parents.

Of course, at the time, we all hated these rules (I was walking home in the stifling Australian hear in December and wasn't wearing my blazer and the school accountant stopped his car and told me to put it on!). Immediately after we finished school, many of us grew our hair long, grew facial hair and dressed down -- it was the days of grunge, after all -- yet slowly, but surely, I suspect most of us have come to understand and appreciate why our school was like that and how much society has degenerated since.

Same here. When I was at school, you'd be sent home for the most minor uniform infractions.

That included girls wearing skirts that didn't cover their knees, any kind of makeup or jewelry, boys with "cool" haircuts, turning up without a white shirt and school tie, wearing the wrong kind of shoes, and a host of other things that seemed petty and annoying at the time, but that as a parent I now appreciate.

My personal bete noire was the prohibition on facial hair. I started shaving at the age of 13 after being made aware that my attempts at sporting a bumfluff moustache were not welcome on school grounds. I thought it made me look cool and sophisticated.

I don't remember anybody even mentioning tattoos or piercings, the idea would have been too ridiculous even for the most rebellious of teenagers to contemplate. Tattoos were for squaddies and taxi drivers, and facial piercings were something you only saw on pink-haired lesbian art students from the local university. I'm sure if anybody had been brave and foolish enough to try it, they'd have been expelled instantly. I saw kids being thrown out of school permanently for less.

We still got up to all kinds of mischief, whenever we thought we could get away with it, which wasn't as often as we would've liked. I remember the feeling of absolute horror when me and some other boys got caught smoking in the toilets. In our adolescent naivety, it never occurred to us that the teachers might have seen that one before.

While it didn't make sense to me at the time, in retrospect the uniform code helped reign in some of our natural waywardness and allowed some vague understanding of the concepts of self discipline, pride in your appearance, and school spirit to osmose through our formidable barriers of childish know-it-all-ness to our hormone-addled teenage brains. I resented - sometimes even flat out hated - most of my teachers when I was a lad, but I've since grown extremely grateful for them putting up with me for all those years when I was an insufferable little bastard.

There's a popular TV show in the UK called "The Inbetweeners". It's about a group of teenage boys and their adventures in and out of school, and it is hilarious. I can't watch it though, it's too close to the bone and causes me psychic pain to recall that, yes, I was like that too.