[The Beast1]

Hey guys,

I've been using this routine in a 5x5 set up that has been giving me steady gains. I'd like to hear a critique simply because well I appreciate it. Body type wise, i'm a hard gainer with a high appetite. At 17 I was 6ft tall and 150lbs. This routine has brought me to 183 lbs with a ~15% bodyfat ratio. My goals are general strength and fitness as well as looking good naked. I consume about 3000 calories a day.

Monday:
Weighted pull ups
Bent over row
Deadlift

Tuesday
Military Press
Stand up Row
Clean and Press

Wednesday:
Squats
Deadlifts

Thursday:
Weighted Dips
Incline Bench Press
Flat Bench Press
Dumb bell pull over

I modified it from this article http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/wotw46.htm

[Ensam]

You could probably cut the deadlifts to once a week and add in another hamstring exercise (I really like glute ham raises).

Are you cleaning with a strict overhead press or a push press? You might want to drop the military press and replace it with a strict overhead press - especially if you're push pressing the cleans.

[The Beast1]

(09-14-2014 04:39 PM)Ensam Wrote:  

You could probably cut the deadlifts to once a week and add in another hamstring exercise (I really like glute ham raises).

Are you cleaning with a strict overhead press or a push press? You might want to drop the military press and replace it with a strict overhead press - especially if you're push pressing the cleans.

Push pressing, I always have to lower the weight because I'm burned out by the time I get to them.

What's the difference between a military press and a strict press (remember newb here).

[Hannibal]

You'll want to do the biggest exercises first in your routine when you are fresh.

So for your first workout do the deadlift first, then rows and weighted pullups.

On tuesday I would do the clean and press before everything else.

Then on thursday the benching should come first. Weighted dips are a great exercise, but you can do them after the benching. It's safer and the only spotter you need for weighted dips is your feet.

[Ensam]

(09-14-2014 05:19 PM)frenchie Wrote:  

What's the difference between a military press and a strict press (remember newb here).

Actually I should have asked if you were doing your military presses seated or standing. If you're doing them standing there's not much of a difference and it probably doesn't matter much.

[Mongo]

Add some legs into Thursday's lift. Doesn't have to be heavy, especially after Wednesday, but something like some DB Walking Lunges will help you pack on muscle everywhere.

[Bilboswaggins]

As long as you're progressing, why change it? I would personally make following modifications.

Monday:
Deadlift
Weighted chin ups
Bent over row

Wednesday:
Flat Bench Press
Incline Bench Press
Weighted Dips

Friday:
Squats
Accessory leg work
Military Press + additional shoulder isolation.

Something along those lines. Giving more rest between squats and deadlifts and toning the frequency of deadlifts to just once a week. Also, putting together the squats/deadlifts workout with shoulders. Why go 4 days a week when 3 is enough?

[StrikeBack]

What kind of weights are you lifting?

Also, a routine for one week is only a part of overall programming. You slowly need to learn to look past that and see the bigger picture first. No strong man plans for just a week. That's complete novice stuff. A random week that has no context can't be optimally planned for.

When writing a program for myself or for people I coach (in powerlifting), I go through these views in order:

- The whole cycle - from today until the next competition date
- Write down blocks of training backwards from the comp date back to today, each block is usually 4 weeks, but sometimes longer (up to 10 in the off season)
- Write down definition and goals for each block (some are for pure comp specialisation, some are for hypertrophy of certain muscle groups for example)
- Then, from those goals, write the main lifts to address the goals
- Write the major supporting exercises (SPP) for those main lifts (usually a variation of the main lift)
- Write the minor supporting exercises (GPP) for those main lifts
- Throw them together in a certain order to form a 4 weeks block or a week of training within the block
- Optional: write the recovery exercises to support the training

Sets, reps and weights (average intensity) will vary between blocks, and in many cases between each week of the same block.

Even if you don't compete, plan so that you may be at your absolute strongest (peak) every 3-4 months.

[The Reactionary Tree]

If it aint broke, dont fix it.

But if you want some critique, I would drop deadlifts to once a weak like Ensam said. I would also add in another day of squats. So maybe on Monday, just replace deadlifts with squats.

Also, how are you doing your deadlifts? Is it 5x5? 5 singles? If you want to go hard on deadlifts since you'd be dropping it to once a week, you could do what I do. I do 10 singles of about 85-90% of my 1RM. It avoids high reps since each pull is a single, thus avoiding form crumbling. Then just increase by 10lbs every week. That's the only lift I do like that. Other than that, all my main lifts: squat, bench, pendlay rows (I prefer to bent over rows - more explosiveness), and overhead press are 5x5.

[Saweeep]

I deadlift twice per week too. Once heavy, once for reps.

A really underestimated exercise that I don't think anyone in my gym does bar me is straight leg deadlifts…nothing hits my hamstrings and promoted growth like them.

[Fortis]

^ Agreed. I do stiff leg DL and traditional DL on different days.

[The Beast1]

(09-15-2014 02:22 AM)StrikeBack Wrote:  

What kind of weights are you lifting?

Also, a routine for one week is only a part of overall programming. You slowly need to learn to look past that and see the bigger picture first. No strong man plans for just a week. That's complete novice stuff. A random week that has no context can't be optimally planned for.

When writing a program for myself or for people I coach (in powerlifting), I go through these views in order:

- The whole cycle - from today until the next competition date
- Write down blocks of training backwards from the comp date back to today, each block is usually 4 weeks, but sometimes longer (up to 10 in the off season)
- Write down definition and goals for each block (some are for pure comp specialisation, some are for hypertrophy of certain muscle groups for example)
- Then, from those goals, write the main lifts to address the goals
- Write the major supporting exercises (SPP) for those main lifts (usually a variation of the main lift)
- Write the minor supporting exercises (GPP) for those main lifts
- Throw them together in a certain order to form a 4 weeks block or a week of training within the block
- Optional: write the recovery exercises to support the training

Sets, reps and weights (average intensity) will vary between blocks, and in many cases between each week of the same block.

Even if you don't compete, plan so that you may be at your absolute strongest (peak) every 3-4 months.

Here are some rough numbers. All are 5x5s

Monday:
Weighted pull ups (20 lbs)
Bent over row (185 lbs)
Deadlift (250 lbs)

Tuesday
Military Press (105 lbs)
Stand up Row (115 lbs)
Clean and Press (65 lbs)

Wednesday:
Squats (205 lbs)
Deadlifts (250)

Thursday:
Weighted Dips (10 or 20 lbs)
Incline Bench Press (140 lbs)
Flat Bench Press (150 lbs)
Dumb bell pull over (80 lbs)

[StrikeBack]

OK no offence meant, but your strength level (in serious lifting circles) would be in the novice category. You're not doing an optimal program by going with 5x5. The 5x5 scheme was popularised by Reg Park and later by Bill Starr for his high school footballers. Those blokes were very strong, to say the least, and 5x5 would be appropriate for their level, but not yours.

You need to do on average higher reps. You can periodize this as I mentioned above and progress from higher reps to lower reps over the course of your training cycle, so you may end up doing 5x5 at some stage, but it shouldn't be the major part of your training. As a hard gainer, you'll benefit from higher volume as well.

I'd go to 5x10 for the earlier weeks of the cycle, and go down to 5x8 and 5x5 towards the end (assuming 12 weeks block, you can do 4 weeks 5x10, 4 weeks 5x8, 4 weeks 5x5 - do just 3 sets on the 4th week of each block to drop the volume a bit) for most compound lifts except maybe deadlift. That you can do lower reps on.

As for your routine, overall you're just not doing enough volume for a hard gainer novice.

Why are you deadlifting twice a week (nothing wrong with it by itself) but only squatting once? Injury related? I'd say swap one of those for a variation of the deadlift. Stiff Leg Deadlift is a good one, and you can go slightly higher reps e.g 3x8 or 3x10.

I'd lose the stand up row. It's a dumb exercise which is also murder for your shoulders. Just do more press or front raises if you like bigger shoulders. Or do some lateral raises to get some lateral delt development since you're already working your front delts a lot.

If you want to do clean & press as well as military press, save yourself some time by cleaning the 1st rep of every set you're going to press i.e merge the two exercises and do more volume.

You need to throw in some rear delt exercises (Face pulls, rear delt flyes etc.) for shoulder health, and bicep curls for elbow health.

You need to train your abs. I know some people would say you use your abs in squat deadlift blah blah but the ones I've run into will always fail the abs strength tests I throw at them. I suggest: Ab Wheel rollouts, Hollow Body Position, Russian Twists, Superman Pushups, Hanging Leg Raises (remember, the lowering part IS the main workout so do that slowly). Pick a couple and rotate them for fun.

Perhaps swap Thursday exercises around to have Flat Bench first, Incline second and Dips third.

Whichever you think is the hardest workout (looks like Wednesday with both squat and deadlift), move it to Monday after you've had a 3-days break.

[The Beast1]

(09-15-2014 09:03 PM)StrikeBack Wrote:  

OK no offence meant, but your strength level (in serious lifting circles) would be in the novice category. You're not doing an optimal program by going with 5x5. The 5x5 scheme was popularised by Reg Park and later by Bill Starr for his high school footballers. Those blokes were very strong, to say the least, and 5x5 would be appropriate for their level, but not yours.

You need to do on average higher reps. You can periodize this as I mentioned above and progress from higher reps to lower reps over the course of your training cycle, so you may end up doing 5x5 at some stage, but it shouldn't be the major part of your training. As a hard gainer, you'll benefit from higher volume as well.

I'd go to 5x10 for the earlier weeks of the cycle, and go down to 5x8 and 5x5 towards the end (assuming 12 weeks block, you can do 4 weeks 5x10, 4 weeks 5x8, 4 weeks 5x5 - do just 3 sets on the 4th week of each block to drop the volume a bit) for most compound lifts except maybe deadlift. That you can do lower reps on.

As for your routine, overall you're just not doing enough volume for a hard gainer novice.

Why are you deadlifting twice a week (nothing wrong with it by itself) but only squatting once? Injury related? I'd say swap one of those for a variation of the deadlift. Stiff Leg Deadlift is a good one, and you can go slightly higher reps e.g 3x8 or 3x10.

I'd lose the stand up row. It's a dumb exercise which is also murder for your shoulders. Just do more press or front raises if you like bigger shoulders. Or do some lateral raises to get some lateral delt development since you're already working your front delts a lot.

If you want to do clean & press as well as military press, save yourself some time by cleaning the 1st rep of every set you're going to press i.e merge the two exercises and do more volume.

You need to throw in some rear delt exercises (Face pulls, rear delt flyes etc.) for shoulder health, and bicep curls for elbow health.

You need to train your abs. I know some people would say you use your abs in squat deadlift blah blah but the ones I've run into will always fail the abs strength tests I throw at them. I suggest: Ab Wheel rollouts, Hollow Body Position, Russian Twists, Superman Pushups, Hanging Leg Raises (remember, the lowering part IS the main workout so do that slowly). Pick a couple and rotate them for fun.

Perhaps swap Thursday exercises around to have Flat Bench first, Incline second and Dips third.

Whichever you think is the hardest workout (looks like Wednesday with both squat and deadlift), move it to Monday after you've had a 3-days break.

Thanks for the post, none taken that's why I posted in this thread.

I've only been doing this routine for about a year. Around June of this year I switched to the 5x5. I used to do a 15, 8, 8, 6 split for each exercise. I was having a lot of issues with gaining any mass and strength at all. I did ok, but the progress was incredibly slow and I hit plateaus very very quickly.

My diet is between 3000-3500 calories daily (dinner count varies) and roughy ~1 gram of protein per pound.

I had no physical strength training until roughly 2 years ago.

That's when I had a personal trainer set me up with proper form and a rudimentary mass gaining program. It wasn't until I got onto this forum that I stopped using his routine and focused strictly on compound lifts (per other people's suggestions).

The whole workout was adapted from this article:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/wotw46.htm

I followed it to the letter before I modified it. I don't know how to do the deadlift variations so I cut out the deadlift variations. I also removed the front squat. Might consider adding that back in.

So, yeah I would consider myself a novice simply because I never did any gym training in my youth.

I do a rest week every 7th week where I cut the weight in half and up the reps to 10 so it's a 5x10. It seems to break the plateaus.

What would be the reason I didn't see any hypertrophy and strength gains doing a higher volume work out in the past?

Edit: nvm here's a good article describing what occurred with me http://jasonferruggia.com/how-many-reps-...ld-muscle/
I'd say the 5x5 probably was a good starting point for me. I should probably consider upping the rep range in a few months then considering i've been at the gym for 2 years.

[StrikeBack]

Quote:

What would be the reason I didn't see any hypertrophy and strength gains doing a higher volume work out in the past?

You were lifting weights too light, and for too long. Also likely, too slowly, but that's for another time.

"Time under tension" is the golden rule of bodybuilding, and to gain, you increase either time or tension or both. IOW, lift as heavy as you can for as many reps (total reps over all your sets in a training session, or week, or month) as you can, while resting as little as you can.

That is not a good article explaining things, because it lacks a lot of context, or is just flat out wrong.

Captain Kirk Kawowski did do tons of reps higher than 5s. In the book The Purposeful Primitive by his coach Marty Gallagher, he wrote about the entire training of Kirk. It's mostly based around the classic powerlifting cycle just like Ed Coan's (also in the book). He started the cycle out with high reps (usually 10), then down to 5 reps near the end of the cycle. You only hear about the 5s because that's where the weights get heavy enough to make people go wow.

Arthur Saxon did few reps with super heavy weights, but he trained and performed many times a day, 7 days a week, all year round. His total volume (poundage) was sky high.

Olympic lifters like David Rigert, while favouring low reps, also trained a few times a day, 6-7 days a week, with really heavy weights.

They are also a shitload stronger than most people who ever lived on Earth while doing those particular routines. You don't actually know what they did as novices. Actually you would if you read further about them than the author of the above article. Young Oly lifters did a lot more reps than their older more experienced counterparts. Guess where, for example, the 10x10 training comes from? It's called German Volume Training, used by German Oly lifters to go up the next weight class. Another example is the old school 20 reps widowmaker squats (I used to do them up to 1.5xBW for 20 reps) which is famous for making you gain size, strength and mental fortitude like nothing else.

Now if you ONLY lift high reps for too long, you will make very slow gains in both size and strength, because with high reps, you can only handle relatively light weights (to your potential 1RM). The body doesn't want to get huge lifting puny weights regardless of reps, because it doesn't need to. You need to get stronger as well (hence lower reps in the latter part of the training cycle), so your high reps can be done with heavier weights, which will in turn give you more gains in the next cycle during the hypertrophy blocks.

[Ensam]

I don't agree you need to up the reps. Just up the weight and you'll be fine. Follow something like 5-3-1 once you're comfortable with the form. I never do more than 4 reps on deadlifts and only do 8+ reps on squats one day a week as an assistance (50-70% depending on the reps). My strength gains have been consistent and I feel great. I do do high reps on the assistance exercises but even then I'm only doing 3-5 sets.

The problem with high reps is that your form will tend to break down towards the end of the set. Unless you're working with a coach who's correcting every rep (like the olympic lifters do) you're just asking for injury.

[imcca001]

(09-14-2014 04:24 PM)frenchie Wrote:  

Hey guys,

I've been using this routine in a 5x5 set up that has been giving me steady gains. I'd like to hear a critique simply because well I appreciate it. Body type wise, i'm a hard gainer with a high appetite. At 17 I was 6ft tall and 150lbs. This routine has brought me to 183 lbs with a ~15% bodyfat ratio. My goals are general strength and fitness as well as looking good naked. I consume about 3000 calories a day.

Monday:
Weighted pull ups
Bent over row
Deadlift

Tuesday
Military Press
Stand up Row
Clean and Press

Wednesday:
Squats
Deadlifts

Thursday:
Weighted Dips
Incline Bench Press
Flat Bench Press
Dumb bell pull over

I modified it from this article http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/wotw46.htm

Frenchie, its hard to know exactly how this workout will be used because it dosent show sets and reps. If you have 4 days in the gym I would focus on some of the smaller muscles. The workout you are doing now has you hitting quite a bit of the body almost every day. Even for a beginner that is a little much. Dont get me weong, if you are progressing in weight or reps every week you are good, but I doubt you could do that on that routine. I would suggest you use a basics first routine that splits the body up a little easier. If you truly can make gains from a program like that I would do something a little simpler and hit the whole body a little more evenly. Dont get me wrong. Thats a great program and an awesome program for your whole body as you use many compound barbell movements and do split the body up. Great job with that. A simple program I have used that I think would be perfect for your goals "general strength and fitness, looking good naked".


Day 1 (Monday)

5-min walk for warm-up.
Deadlift 2-3 sets of 4-5 reps reverse pyramid style.
Rest 5-10 mins.
Leg extensions - Same setup as deadlifts, but reps a bit higher (6-8).
Rest 5-10 mins.
Chins - Same as deads.



Day 3 (Wednesday)

5-min walk for warm-up.
Bench press 2-3 sets of 5-7 reps reverse pyramid style.
Rest 5-10 mins
Pull-ups 2-3 sets with body weight.
Rest 5-10 mins


Day 5 (Friday)

Squats 2-3 sets of 5-7 reps reverse pyramid style.
Rest 5-10 mins.
Walking lunges 2-3 sets same as squats.
Rest 5-10 mins.
Overhead Press 2-3 sets of 5-7 reps reverse pyramid style.
Rest 5-10 mins

I hope this helps. The main thing is that you need to be progressing on strength regardless of what you are doing. Anyway I hope this helps.

[The Beast1]

(09-24-2014 09:09 PM)imcca001 Wrote:  

(09-14-2014 04:24 PM)frenchie Wrote:  

Hey guys,

I've been using this routine in a 5x5 set up that has been giving me steady gains. I'd like to hear a critique simply because well I appreciate it. Body type wise, i'm a hard gainer with a high appetite. At 17 I was 6ft tall and 150lbs. This routine has brought me to 183 lbs with a ~15% bodyfat ratio. My goals are general strength and fitness as well as looking good naked. I consume about 3000 calories a day.

Monday:
Weighted pull ups
Bent over row
Deadlift

Tuesday
Military Press
Stand up Row
Clean and Press

Wednesday:
Squats
Deadlifts

Thursday:
Weighted Dips
Incline Bench Press
Flat Bench Press
Dumb bell pull over

I modified it from this article http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/wotw46.htm

Frenchie, its hard to know exactly how this workout will be used because it dosent show sets and reps. If you have 4 days in the gym I would focus on some of the smaller muscles. The workout you are doing now has you hitting quite a bit of the body almost every day. Even for a beginner that is a little much. Dont get me weong, if you are progressing in weight or reps every week you are good, but I doubt you could do that on that routine. I would suggest you use a basics first routine that splits the body up a little easier. If you truly can make gains from a program like that I would do something a little simpler and hit the whole body a little more evenly. Dont get me wrong. Thats a great program and an awesome program for your whole body as you use many compound barbell movements and do split the body up. Great job with that. A simple program I have used that I think would be perfect for your goals "general strength and fitness, looking good naked".


Day 1 (Monday)

5-min walk for warm-up.
Deadlift 2-3 sets of 4-5 reps reverse pyramid style.
Rest 5-10 mins.
Leg extensions - Same setup as deadlifts, but reps a bit higher (6-8).
Rest 5-10 mins.
Chins - Same as deads.



Day 3 (Wednesday)

5-min walk for warm-up.
Bench press 2-3 sets of 5-7 reps reverse pyramid style.
Rest 5-10 mins
Pull-ups 2-3 sets with body weight.
Rest 5-10 mins


Day 5 (Friday)

Squats 2-3 sets of 5-7 reps reverse pyramid style.
Rest 5-10 mins.
Walking lunges 2-3 sets same as squats.
Rest 5-10 mins.
Overhead Press 2-3 sets of 5-7 reps reverse pyramid style.
Rest 5-10 mins

I hope this helps. The main thing is that you need to be progressing on strength regardless of what you are doing. Anyway I hope this helps.

Thanks, take another look at that page. Scroll down. Here are the set and rep counts.



I swapped to a 5x5. Today I lowered the weight slightly and up the reps to 8 for chest day just to see what would happen. I think it helped.