[infowarrior1]

Fellow travellers of the manosphere. This is the question that is bugging me for a long time.

Why is it that there are men who are manly in all the classical ways acting as a man should act then when encountering the opposite sex fold and submit?

Those men are unafraid of bullets and enemy soldiers yet cower before bull-headed pseudo-masculine women when they crack the whip.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

A) Being spoiled - too used to success. A man who has for some reason (natural game, extremely good looks, vast riches and social status...) enjoyed women falling in his lap his whole life will be devastated the first time he gets seriously dumped, especially if it's by some unattractive woman who "by all rights" should be worshipping him

B) Infection with feminist and white knight beliefs - being taught that you are supposed to be a doormat to the superior gender your whole life is like the switch in Aasimov's robots, overriding any masculine tendencies otherwise developed

C) Being out of touch with your emotions, uncontrolled and prone to mood swings based on your surroundings - a woman manipulating you can throw you out of wack and cause you to start doing ridiculous things, even if they're against your beliefs

IMO B is the most common reason, followed by C, but watching A when it happens (even though it's the most rare) is more exciting. It's like a trainwreck in slow-motion.

Memento mori, natural Alphas. Memento mori.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

I would add:

D) Raised by a strong mother/grandmother without influence of a father or a strong father figure.

That can fuck up a man pretty much, especially if it goes on all through childhood. Those men can sometimes be great achievers being born to very disciplined and hard-ass mothers, but it ingrains a certain subservience to women in their minds. Funny is that those guys usually seem totally Alpha with men and sometimes even when meeting women at first. Only in a LTR they are becoming a slave to the woman.

[Mage]

Most naturals are rather stupid. Stupidity gives them great confidence that attracts women and makes them do risky (perceived as manly) behavior that also attracts women. But the more they are removed from their high school years the more their stupidity hurts them. The women around also change from fun seeking high school girls to materialistic pre-wall bitches who start realizing that they must limit partying and start screwing some dumb loser for financial security.

The path to true masculinity is a conscious one.

[infowarrior1]

Agreed. You all make valid points. Perhaps men cannot be completely and truly men unless they manage to escape the orbit of their mother and hence the governance of the feminine overall.

What do you guys think? Is a man truly a man if he demonstrates all the classic manly traits yet submits to women?

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(09-10-2014 04:35 AM)infowarrior1 Wrote:  

Agreed. You all make valid points. Perhaps men cannot be completely and truly men unless they manage to escape the orbit of their mother and hence the governance of the feminine overall.

What do you guys think? Is a man truly a man if he demonstrates all the classic manly traits yet submits to women?

Game works equally well on mothers/grandmothers/cousins/sisters/daughters. (Just without any sexual innuendo of course.)

Many of those tough-as-steel women are not bad, since they have a lot of positive discipline. They just need a man who makes fun of them, is even stronger around them and then they are suddenly all happy and fun. Especially the Game concepts of Amused Mastery & Agree and Amplify work on female family members.

[Felix88]

(09-10-2014 12:18 AM)infowarrior1 Wrote:  

Why are men who seem manly end up submitting to women?

They're just seem manly but they're never manly in the first place.

[infowarrior1]

(09-10-2014 06:00 AM)Felix88 Wrote:  

(09-10-2014 12:18 AM)infowarrior1 Wrote:  

Why are men who seem manly end up submitting to women?

They're just seem manly but they're never manly in the first place.

My mistake. By that statement I am already putting the cart before the horse. What I meant was those men were as manly as manly can be but they fold and submit to women.

[infowarrior1]

(09-10-2014 05:57 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

(09-10-2014 04:35 AM)infowarrior1 Wrote:  

Agreed. You all make valid points. Perhaps men cannot be completely and truly men unless they manage to escape the orbit of their mother and hence the governance of the feminine overall.

What do you guys think? Is a man truly a man if he demonstrates all the classic manly traits yet submits to women?

Game works equally well on mothers/grandmothers/cousins/sisters/daughters. (Just without any sexual innuendo of course.)

Many of those tough-as-steel women are not bad, since they have a lot of positive discipline. They just need a man who makes fun of them, is even stronger around them and then they are suddenly all happy and fun. Especially the Game concepts of Amused Mastery & Agree and Amplify work on female family members.

You may be right. But I do have my misgivings about them. I especially have a nagging suspicion that being tough-as-steel makes them more masculine and less feminine. Perhaps you can correct me on that.

[StrikeBack]

I used to see this big bloke at my gym, a massive unit who played rugby and lifted a ton of weights. His voice was thunderous and he had a commanding presence around other men in the gym.

I will never forget the day I ran into him on his phone during a break outside the gym. He sounded so....soft and sweet, with a submissive smile and body language. Turned out that he was talking to his girlfriend. He was the exact opposite of himself when being around men.

[RawGod]

(09-10-2014 01:59 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

I would add:

D) Raised by a strong mother/grandmother without influence of a father or a strong father figure.

That can fuck up a man pretty much, especially if it goes on all through childhood. Those men can sometimes be great achievers being born to very disciplined and hard-ass mothers, but it ingrains a certain subservience to women in their minds. Funny is that those guys usually seem totally Alpha with men and sometimes even when meeting women at first. Only in a LTR they are becoming a slave to the woman.

I was not surprised to see that the OP is an Australian, like myself, where this remarkable phenomenon of the manliest of men being completely submissive towards women is so obvious.

For a long time I wondered the same thing, until I heard Stefan Molyneux identify the answer, with his emphasis on spanking of infants and children.

Simply put, male children are traumatized and abused by their mothers, and this is considered completely normal.

While it is an understudied area, the studies that do exist show that spanking occurs much more frequently than is admitted by parents, is likely to be more frequent and severe with boys than with girls, and has measurable hormonal and epigenetic effects.

The personality change has occurred before the age of 5, and males learn that women are to be placated at all costs. For the terrified infant, it is a matter of life and death, and this is thoroughly internalised.

So you get these impressive football players walking around like Achilles, until they get a text message, sheepishly tell you "happy wife, happy life" and have to go home immediately.

edit: and I wrote that last line before reading Strikeback's post directly above...

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(09-10-2014 06:08 AM)infowarrior1 Wrote:  

You may be right. But I do have my misgivings about them. I especially have a nagging suspicion that being tough-as-steel makes them more masculine and less feminine. Perhaps you can correct me on that.

Of course it is not attractive.

And those women are dying out - you can still find more of them in the Asian community where they rule with an iron fist, but at least the son is going to Harvard.

The only positive thing is that I encountered is that they are often widows or had truly tough survival conditions in their lives to overcome. And frankly that is about the only excuse they could have had. They usually do not divorce their Beta husbands. When coupled with an Alpha they are actually quite mellow and feminine. In one case unfortunately the Alpha husband died and she did as best as she could.

In a way it is similar to dog psychology - when you let a dominant dog walk all over you the dog assumes command and rules as best as he can - of course being essentially ill-suited to do so in a world of humans, but at least the pooch does his best With women it is similar - they are all more happy & balanced when living with a strong dominant man in their household.

And yeah - physical punishment above the age of 2 is completely useless - male children get the brunt of it being the more active gender. As soon as a kid understands you, there is simply no need for physical punishment anymore. Discipline can be taught in a million ways - best by the stern look of a father being the best. Again very similar to dog psychology - I only have to look at my dog a certain way and he knows he is busted.

[infowarrior1]

(09-10-2014 06:21 AM)RawGod Wrote:  

(09-10-2014 01:59 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

I would add:

D) Raised by a strong mother/grandmother without influence of a father or a strong father figure.

That can fuck up a man pretty much, especially if it goes on all through childhood. Those men can sometimes be great achievers being born to very disciplined and hard-ass mothers, but it ingrains a certain subservience to women in their minds. Funny is that those guys usually seem totally Alpha with men and sometimes even when meeting women at first. Only in a LTR they are becoming a slave to the woman.

I was not surprised to see that the OP is an Australian, like myself, where this remarkable phenomenon of the manliest of men being completely submissive towards women is so obvious.

For a long time I wondered the same thing, until I heard Stefan Molyneux identify the answer, with his emphasis on spanking of infants and children.

Simply put, male children are traumatized and abused by their mothers, and this is considered completely normal.

While it is an understudied area, the studies that do exist show that spanking occurs much more frequently than is admitted by parents, is likely to be more frequent and severe with boys than with girls, and has measurable hormonal and epigenetic effects.

The personality change has occurred before the age of 5, and males learn that women are to be placated at all costs. For the terrified infant, it is a matter of life and death, and this is thoroughly internalised.

So you get these impressive football players walking around like Achilles, until they get a text message, sheepishly tell you "happy wife, happy life" and have to go home immediately.

edit: and I wrote that last line before reading Strikeback's post directly above...

That guys comment is reminiscent of the response of a boy to his mother
"Is it OK for me to be me, Mommy?"

Such men have not truly cut the apron strings off themselves. Deep inside they are still little boys terrified of their mother.


Cultures used to have initiation rites to transition the boy to manhood. Ensuing that he breaks free of the tyranny of the mother and becomes his own man. We have lost that. And so we have this phenomenon.

[infowarrior1]

Anyway here is a video of how one man overcome his trauma. And healed himself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJ1F4a7SjZg

[MrXY]

Scarcity mentality

[infowarrior1]

(09-10-2014 10:12 PM)MrXY Wrote:  

Scarcity mentality

Possibly. But earlier posters suggested deeper reasons that make a lot of sense.

Many behaviours have their roots in something especially in childhood. It is up to the man to find the roots and the deal with that. All else follows from that.

[Jaydublin]

Some of the most alpha people I know end up submitting to women.... And I mean true alphas in every way. I have never quite understood it but they always end up submitting to an unstable girl who they allow to call the shots. In the cases I have experienced the girls they end up with is not nearly as hot as the girls they bang.... Usually it is a fixer upper type.

[Vitriol]

(09-10-2014 02:00 AM)Mage Wrote:  

Most naturals are rather stupid. Stupidity gives them great confidence that attracts women and makes them do risky (perceived as manly) behavior that also attracts women. But the more they are removed from their high school years the more their stupidity hurts them. The women around also change from fun seeking high school girls to materialistic pre-wall bitches who start realizing that they must limit partying and start screwing some dumb loser for financial security.

The path to true masculinity is a conscious one.

Pretty much all the "natural" guys I knew who were getting tons of pussy during their high school years ended up doing low paying manual labor jobs and got slammed with at least a couple misdemeanors. But women love that because dumb guys generally can't see through their bullshit or understand the big picture... in other words, they're easy to manipulate and women love to play that game.

[runsonmagic]

What makes men "seem manly" is their utility to women, not their ability to fulfill their own needs.

The most manly "seeming" men are higher betas - cops, firemen, soldiers - men who put their own safety in jeopardy for women.

Is it any surprise they'd do the same in their personal lives?

Same for naturals. Naturals are men good at pleasing women's emotions. If you live by women's validation, you'll die by it.

At thirty, when women see them as being irresponsible and unwilling to commit - will they have the strength to reframe or just try to please her?

It's lonely at the top. Submitting to a woman and falling to her level is the easy out.

[Vitriol]

(09-10-2014 10:42 PM)runsonmagic Wrote:  

It's lonely at the top. Submitting to a woman and falling to her level is the easy out.

That's definitely a lucid thought. The ancients understood this idea well if you study their works. Unfortunately, in our times it gets labeled as "misogyny" and no further discussion is needed.

Submitting to a woman is the life of a slave.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(09-10-2014 10:42 PM)runsonmagic Wrote:  

..
The most manly "seeming" men are higher betas - cops, firemen, soldiers - men who put their own safety in jeopardy for women.

Is it any surprise they'd do the same in their personal lives?

Same for naturals. Naturals are men good at pleasing women's emotions. If you live by women's validation, you'll die by it.

Soldiers and firemen live according to an honor code which makes sense among men. Indoctrinated into the White Knight status they believe that this should work with the female psyche, but of course they are disappointed and bewildered to find out that female minds see a lot of that behavior as weak or boring - Beta or Omega even.

If part of additional Base Training was Red Pill we could easily half the divorce rates in half in the military.

And Naturals have the problem of unconscious competence. Since they don't have a fucking clue about female nature, but only certain parts and guidelines which work at pick-up, their lack of understanding comes up stronger and stronger in a long relationship or marriage. In the end they may even submit to a woman due to being beaten down by life.

[Dalaran1991]

My Karate instructor is a 4th degree black belt in both Karate and Aikido. At 45 he still has 6 packs and everyone like and respect him. Has a commanding presence and when he throws a punch it fucking shakes the earth.

He becomes a puppy whenever he talks to his girlfriend, also 40s, she is 5"1' and soft-spoken.

Im like, what the fuck? And he should also be dating much younger and hotter girls.

[infowarrior1]

(09-11-2014 03:56 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

My Karate instructor is a 4th degree black belt in both Karate and Aikido. At 45 he still has 6 packs and everyone like and respect him. Has a commanding presence and when he throws a punch it fucking shakes the earth.

He becomes a puppy whenever he talks to his girlfriend, also 40s, she is 5"1' and soft-spoken.

Im like, what the fuck? And he should also be dating much younger and hotter girls.

The reasons probably reside quite deep in his psychology. That is the need for female validation or mother need. Or some experience and conditioning that taught him to submit to women.

[infowarrior1]

(09-11-2014 12:16 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

(09-10-2014 10:42 PM)runsonmagic Wrote:  

..
The most manly "seeming" men are higher betas - cops, firemen, soldiers - men who put their own safety in jeopardy for women.

Is it any surprise they'd do the same in their personal lives?

Same for naturals. Naturals are men good at pleasing women's emotions. If you live by women's validation, you'll die by it.

Soldiers and firemen live according to an honor code which makes sense among men. Indoctrinated into the White Knight status they believe that this should work with the female psyche, but of course they are disappointed and bewildered to find out that female minds see a lot of that behavior as weak or boring - Beta or Omega even.

If part of additional Base Training was Red Pill we could easily half the divorce rates in half in the military.

And Naturals have the problem of unconscious competence. Since they don't have a fucking clue about female nature, but only certain parts and guidelines which work at pick-up, their lack of understanding comes up stronger and stronger in a long relationship or marriage. In the end they may even submit to a woman due to being beaten down by life.

That's why initation rites are so important. It is to break men from the tyranny of the feminine and to teach them to be masculine and not to fold in the presence of the feminine. I think if we can get enough momentum and cultural change the red pill will play an instrumental part in informing the initation rites of boys at the age of 12 examples also can be used of ancient tribal initation rites that has been used to transition a boy to manhood.

Men have been cowed by women too long. Its time to change that.

[jamaicabound]

I think alot of times guys fall into the mindset of its easier to just go along than fight back. I hate to compare it to getting a puppy but when you get a dog you have to really have pateince and perseverence with making them go to the bathroom outside. Sometimes that means sitting out on your porch for 45 minutes ready to kill someone cuz the dog keeps smelling stuff and playing and not pooping. It would be much easier to say fuckit and just go inside but if you really want your puppy trained how you want you have to persevere. Not comparing women to puppies, lol, but same concept.

Also, I think alot of guys choose the wrong women. I think part of it is setting expectations and not falling into a shit taking guy is always wrong type thing but I also think it's about chosing the right person, some people just have a bossy or my way personality and there's no changing that.