[Vivaldo]

When I first finished university I used to take frequent trips outside the US everytime I got a bit of money together. Usually I'd spend two to 12 weeks away. While these trips did a lot to free my mind of the conventional American delusions, they held me back from building up substantial personal savings. In my mid-20s I finally concluded short trips were counterproductive because they prevented me from saving enough to leave the country for good. My thinking is that once you determine that the women and life generally are better abroad, why take short trips when it is possible to settle permanently on the continent of your choice?

So, I've consciously forgone travel of late with the goal of accumulating north of $150,000 of savings inside the next year and a half. I started saving a year ago and have tucked away a respectable sum already.

For the minority of men here who have successfully settled in Europe, what amount did you save prior to making the move? How did you decide on your "magic number"? What game plan did you arrive at for securing residency (or existing without it), gainful employment, and &c. Also, what factors led you to settle in the country you chose over others?

[TheMan]

I have lived in and am presently working on returning very soon to stay (matter of months).

For me settling means living and working there.
So by that definition, even for Western Europe ...that number is WAY more than enough </polite understatement >

[Mentavious]

I'm also looking to move to Lyon, France or the North-Rhine Westphalia region of Germany to woke in the next couple of years so this thread will be of great interest.

[Joga Bonito]

--

[Vivaldo]

TheMan,

I recognize that to some the figure I am working toward might seem high, but I have seen people try and fail at expatriation as a result of underestimating the cost of establishing themselves abroad. My intent is to remove that risk entirely. I am now in my late 20s and feel I am too old to fail.

Also, I my sense is that renumeration culture in Europe is more conservative than the US so I want to build a strong financial base before transitioning into the unknown.

For me, the ideal would be to replicate Roosh's experience and kind of meander the entire continent in search of "paradise," however I view settling in one place and just working like hell (while making time to sample the local fare) as the surest route to wealth, comfort, and security.

[pitt]

If you can save 150k in less than 2 years in the US, you may want to stay there a bit longer and try to save 500k and then you probably won't need to work again if you are smart on how to use this amount of money.

[Sherman]

I lived in the Netherlands for a few years, but I got a job before moving there. I wouldn't recommend moving to Europe without first having a job. It is difficult to get a residence permit and Europe is expensive.

[saeta119]

Not all Europe is the same first of all, Eastern Europe cost of living is much lower (but also salaries are low too).

Finding a job at least here in Slovakia is quite easy, but you are looking at a salary around 1,500/month

I moved here with less than 10k, found a job within 2 months and been living here for 4yrs now.

You have to put things in perspective, back in the US I was making over 60k/yr and had almost all my Credit cards maxed out, while here I make around a 3rd of what I used to make but I'm debt free and quite happy living here.

[Exiled Princeling]

(09-09-2014 03:18 AM)saeta119 Wrote:  

Not all Europe is the same first of all, Eastern Europe cost of living is much lower (but also salaries are low too).

Finding a job at least here in Slovakia is quite easy, but you are looking at a salary around 1,500/month

I moved here with less than 10k, found a job within 2 months and been living here for 4yrs now.

You have to put things in perspective, back in the US I was making over 60k/yr and had almost all my Credit cards maxed out, while here I make around a 3rd of what I used to make but I'm debt free and quite happy living here.

Just out of curiosity...what drew you to Slovakia? Being on the Euro, I found it quite expensive compared to other EE countries.

[saeta119]

Being on the Euro to me makes things much easier, cost of living is low (except for real state).
First year was rough as I didn't make any effort to learn the language.

Takes time to know the city but I love it living here, I like small cities and just fits perfect for what I want in a place to live.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(09-09-2014 03:18 AM)saeta119 Wrote:  

Not all Europe is the same first of all, Eastern Europe cost of living is much lower (but also salaries are low too).

Finding a job at least here in Slovakia is quite easy, but you are looking at a salary around 1,500/month

I moved here with less than 10k, found a job within 2 months and been living here for 4yrs now.

You have to put things in perspective, back in the US I was making over 60k/yr and had almost all my Credit cards maxed out, while here I make around a 3rd of what I used to make but I'm debt free and quite happy living here.

That is one way of doing it. The other way is to save up 100k or more and then invest it in some business that keeps you afloat. But even in Eastern Europe - you would be surprised to find out that 100k does not buy you that much. Best is to stay in your area of experience.

Another less likely way is to find a high-level job that pays well even in EE - by well I mean around 10.000$/month or more. Those jobs are available, but it is only in big corporations.

But plenty of small businesses make you that kind of money, but you have to find a good niche - not some BS like a restaurant.

[TheMan]

(09-08-2014 09:00 PM)Vivaldo Wrote:  

TheMan,

I recognize that to some the figure I am working toward might seem high, but I have seen people try and fail at expatriation as a result of underestimating the cost of establishing themselves abroad. My intent is to remove that risk entirely. I am now in my late 20s and feel I am too old to fail.

Also, I my sense is that renumeration culture in Europe is more conservative than the US so I want to build a strong financial base before transitioning into the unknown.

For me, the ideal would be to replicate Roosh's experience and kind of meander the entire continent in search of "paradise," however I view settling in one place and just working like hell (while making time to sample the local fare) as the surest route to wealth, comfort, and security.

Fair enough.

Just note that it is not necessary, unless you only fancy living in London's Chelsea Neighbourhood, Notting Hill Gate area or perhaps even living out of The Royal Suite at the Mandarin Oriental ... in which case, keep saving (Using UK as it is what I know) .


I Moved to Western Europe (London, UK) on a fraction of that which you've posted.
Lived there rather prosperously for almost 5 years (the reason I had to return was not financial)

Eastern Europe... has very different standards and ways of life so you definitely wont need that much there unless again, you're looking to not work.



...Also by renumeration do you mean pay in general? If yes then (at least in London) the pay is pretty good... depending in your job. I got paid more at my job in the UK than I had ever before in Canada (taking exchange and PPP into consideration ) not to mention more vacation days than your north american self will know what to do with.

I guess my point is really fuck N/A. get out and get out quick.
If you are only half way to your stated goal you have absolutely no reason to not be on a plane already!

Maybe there is some stalling going on for some other reason? dunno that is between you ad yourself.
Also dunno what that Sherman guy above is on about permits are easy as piss to get as long as you pass their requirements. ...maybe I am lucky and its a country of origin thing

[TheMan]

dupe

[Vivaldo]

I am at the door step of my goal but now consider it too meager a sum to eject. Targeting to get to $250k-$275k in savings over the next year and angle to transfer with my current job to London. However, I am somewhat dissuaded from London by recent threads picking it apart as an overpriced hellhole with a challenging romantic scene.

I think I will need to hang around large cities where it is possible to make money for a while more, with the goal of getting to a million by age 35-37. Then I will make the move to a desirable European city. In the meantime I will learn how to bartend, cook, or some other craft. I think owning a bar/cafe/women's hair salon is a good route to meeting lots of women in a foreign town.

Putting this into words because I believe ideas should be scrutinized, goals should be vocalized. Maybe there are other guys working towards expatriating themselves.

[RawGod]

(01-21-2017 10:56 PM)Vivaldo Wrote:  

I am at the door step of my goal but now consider it too meager a sum to eject. Targeting to get to $250k-$275k in savings over the next year and angle to transfer with my current job to London. However, I am somewhat dissuaded from London by recent threads picking it apart as an overpriced hellhole with a challenging romantic scene.

I think I will need to hang around large cities where it is possible to make money for a while more, with the goal of getting to a million by age 35-37. Then I will make the move to a desirable European city. In the meantime I will learn how to bartend, cook, or some other craft. I think owning a bar/cafe/women's hair salon is a good route to meeting lots of women in a foreign town.

Putting this into words because I believe ideas should be scrutinized, goals should be vocalized. Maybe there are other guys working towards expatriating themselves.

You've apparently got a high-earning job and intend to save a substantial amount and then set up shop elsewhere already pretty secure. Sounds like a good plan given a strong income tied to a US-only position.

Meanwhile, others are more the vagabond and scoundrel type and move to another continent with perhaps less than 10k in the bank account. Personally I've focused on location independence and have already been living in the location of my choice for a few years. Now my income curve is rising and I'm seeing good growth which may well approach an income like yours before long.

Different strokes and all that...

[Leonard D Neubache]

Dear Lord.

Why would you want to leave the US now?

Desperate to get in on ground level for the up-coming holy war?

[Leads]

Wouldn't sweat it. I left a year ago and now live in the Balkans where the life is great. If you get tired of the 3 month limit, remember that Albania and Georgia give you one year visa-free stay. I still have a passive business back in the states and will have to head back to scale it, before selling, likely to asians (which will then require some Asian travel)

[OCZ]

Depends on which part of Europe a guy is hoping to live in. In many west european countries there area quite a few requirements in order to get a residence permit and also some are very expensive to live in while others quite affordable. Let's take where I am living for example: Sweden. With 1000€ you barely make it to the end of the month with no luxuries, so if you want to enjoy yourself you will need waay more.. which is the case for all the nordic countries at least. On the otherhand if you compare that to any city in the south east, close to the sea. i am pretty sure is more than enough.

[Henny]

(01-23-2017 03:47 AM)Leads Wrote:  

Wouldn't sweat it. I left a year ago and now live in the Balkans where the life is great. If you get tired of the 3 month limit, remember that Albania and Georgia give you one year visa-free stay. I still have a passive business back in the states and will have to head back to scale it, before selling, likely to asians (which will then require some Asian travel)

If I was Albania and Georgia I would be desperate enough to offer 1 year visas for people to live there too

Quote:

Meanwhile, others are more the vagabond and scoundrel type and move to another continent with perhaps less than 10k in the bank account. Personally I've focused on location independence and have already been living in the location of my choice for a few years. Now my income curve is rising and I'm seeing good growth which may well approach an income like yours before long.

For some people it's not much to do with bank balance but location independent income. Starting out as location independent with less than $10k in the bank and a decent income can be very nice indeed

[Vivaldo]

Hit the goal mentioned in the original post today. I'm marching onwards toward the next target.

In thinking of potential destinations and the levels required to sustain myself, my goal is to maintain or improve upon my current lifestyle once in Europe. Hence the drive to accumulate significant savings and establish myself in some kind of career or business in Europe. For some guys 1.000 euro per month is enough, for me I tend to think I will want 8.000 to 12.000 net from a combination of work and investment income.

Working to obtain two qualifications likely to boost my value in the eyes of European employers.

[rudebwoy]

(09-09-2014 06:10 AM)TheMan Wrote:  

I Moved to Western Europe (London, UK) on a fraction of that which you've posted.
Lived there rather prosperously for almost 5 years (the reason I had to return was not financial)

Eastern Europe... has very different standards and ways of life so you definitely wont need that much there unless again, you're looking to not work.



...Also by renumeration do you mean pay in general? If yes then (at least in London) the pay is pretty good... depending in your job. I got paid more at my job in the UK than I had ever before in Canada (taking exchange and PPP into consideration ) not to mention more vacation days than your north american self will know what to do with.

I guess my point is really fuck N/A. get out and get out quick.
If you are only half way to your stated goal you have absolutely no reason to not be on a plane already!

Maybe there is some stalling going on for some other reason? dunno that is between you ad yourself.
Also dunno what that Sherman guy above is on about permits are easy as piss to get as long as you pass their requirements. ...maybe I am lucky and its a country of origin thing

I did the same thing and stayed there the same time before I had to return.

As a older guy, I strongly you suggest you get up and go now.

Waiting on a nest egg is good for retirement, but you aren't retiring.

$150,000 is a hell of a lot of money. You could easily move to Europe on $15,000, I moved to the UK with about $7500 and was able to find a job pretty quickly.

You could also store a lot of that money away in some high interest fund or something that gives you good returns.

Stop thinking you are old at 29, far from it.

[iknowexactly]

If you have 150k cash , buy 300k on margin at Interactive Brokers with nursing home stocks OHI SNR getting about 8% dividends. giving 24k yearly income minus about 2% per year on the 150K you're borrowing.

No trading, market timing, watching stock prices, no one is kicking granny out of her nursing home anytime soon, tons of aging people in USA no-kids culture, OHI has raised dividend $0.01 per quarter for 18 quarters, today got paid 0.62 per share, huge company good balance sheet.

If you want more risk you could go another 150k leveraged and make 36 k minus interest yearly with zero trades. Just wait for the USA population to age.

[rudebwoy]

^ That is gold.

$2K a month I would head straight to somewhere warm for a few months, then straight to Eastern Europe for the summer season.

[HustleNomad]

Left for Europe with $5000, ended up with 6 figures in the bank after expenses after a year travelling.

Location independent business is the way to go. Whatever form that takes, you have to get really really really good at it. It has to be your all consuming focus, and in order for that to be possible you need to know exactly why you want it, why you deserve it, what you're going to do with it, and how you're going to help others with it. With $4-5k/mo you can live a good life anywhere in Europe. Put all your focus into achieving this location independent income, and all other questions and concerns will basically resolve themselves. Then work to 10x it because what you've achieved is nothing compared to what is possible. Even $50k/month is nothing compared to what's possible online.

Re living, I shift every 3 months for visa reasons which suits my needs perfectly - change keeps life interesting, I'm there long enough to get well and truly familiar and build a network, and I find out where I truly like and want to revisit. Hopping between 2+ places each year, 3mo chunks, suits me fine... I get restless easily.

Having the freedom to live wherever you want in the best areas, do whatever you want, and know that you have no "deadline" and will never run out of money is an amazing feeling. Your mindset strengthens, near permanent good mood, more energy, feel more secure, no monetary crap playing on your mind. Until there's a couple mil in the bank just don't get too distracted because work is still required... and don't go dumping your money into an overleveraged investment like above no matter how good it seems. You do not run 8% on a consistent basis on a single stock without significant risk. Look deeply into the state of the US dollar/Fed situation, really consider the implications of this on an already failing retirement system starting to get hammered by hordes of baby boomers retiring at the same time... and suddenly investing in nursing homes doesn't seem like such a great idea. In the long term you will lose. But hey, at the end of the day it's your money.

[Brodiaga]

(01-27-2017 10:26 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

If you have 150k cash , buy 300k on margin at Interactive Brokers with nursing home stocks OHI SNR getting about 8% dividends. giving 24k yearly income minus about 2% per year on the 150K you're borrowing.

No trading, market timing, watching stock prices, no one is kicking granny out of her nursing home anytime soon, tons of aging people in USA no-kids culture, OHI has raised dividend $0.01 per quarter for 18 quarters, today got paid 0.62 per share, huge company good balance sheet.

If you want more risk you could go another 150k leveraged and make 36 k minus interest yearly with zero trades. Just wait for the USA population to age.

I took a quick look at OHI and SNR.

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/OHI?p=OHI
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/SNR?p=SNR

These are healthcare/retirement home REITs (real estate investment trusts) with very high dividend yields. Btw I'm not a financial adviser, just a random guy from the internet.

Dividend yields seem great, but I can see a few potential issues:

-REITs are relatively tax inefficient. Generally, they should be held in tax advantaged accounts because most of the dividends are taxed as non-qualified dividends (meaning higher tax rate). More about tax efficiency here: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax-effi..._placement

-Both of these REITs are already highly leveraged (have a lot of debt on their balance sheets). This is fine while the economy and the sector are doing well, not so good when the next recession hits and/or the company is in trouble.

-SNR's income statements show net losses for the last three years.

-Finally, I believe, within reason, in the efficient market hypothesis meaning that the relationship between risk and return is similar across asset classes and already "priced in" by market participants.

For example, if you invest in the S&P500, you make around 8-9% per year on average (not necessarily every year, no guarantee this will continue going forward either). If you use leverage (borrow money) to invest in an already leveraged asset such as these REITs, can you make 2X that just on dividends + more gravy on capital appreciation? Perhaps you can for awhile, but when the average investor gets screwed, you'll get screwed a lot more.

While these REITs look interesting, I would definitely not recommend to anybody to invest all of their hard earned cash in them, particularly using leverage. I would not invest more than 5-10% of capital in them.

Of course, we all have different levels of risk tolerance and different circumstances. For example, if you get a pension which covers your expenses and keep an emergency fund, you can pretty much gamble with the rest of the money. However, a relatively young guy who has saved up a bit of money should realize that using leverage to invest in these REITs is basically a gamble. If it was a low risk/high return opportunity, professional investors would have arbitraged it away.