[Sonsowey]

So I usually gym solo, and usually bench free weights. I'm skinny, doing 5x5, doing 70lb dumbells. About to move up to 75.

Any real pros or cons to free weights? I have always heard free weights are preferable because you need to exert more control to do it properly, training the muscles more fully. Anyone have a reason to agree/disagree with that?

[Skye]

Stabilizing muscles.

[The Reactionary Tree]

I use dumbbells in addition to barbells and used to prefer them to the barbell when doing bench press. I still use barbell for 5x5 and supplement with dumbbell presses and flies for chest. One issue you may have with dumbbells is shoulder issues. You can have shoulder issues with barbells but I think it's easier to aggravate your shoulder using dumbbells (maybe its just me). However, this can be alleviated with proper form. Going heavy can compromise your form some though as you try to press the weight. When using dumbbells, one side will be locked out but the other will still be struggling to push up the weight.

If you want to do the barbell and you are rolling solo, you can do your bench press in a squat rack and set the safety pins just an inch below your chest (when in bench press position). That way when you are doing your barbell press with proper form (a small arch in back) the bar wont hit the pins but if the weight is too much, when you collapse, your chest will be below the pins and the weight will be caught by the pins, thus not crushing you.

[BigBoyPants]

(08-29-2014 01:34 PM)objectivist tree Wrote:  

I use dumbbells in addition to barbells and used to prefer them to the barbell when doing bench press. I still use barbell for 5x5 and supplement with dumbbell presses and flies for chest. One issue you may have with dumbbells is shoulder issues. You can have shoulder issues with barbells but I think it's easier to aggravate your shoulder using dumbbells (maybe its just me). However, this can be alleviated with proper form. Going heavy can compromise your form some though as you try to press the weight. When using dumbbells, one side will be locked out but the other will still be struggling to push up the weight.

If you want to do the barbell and you are rolling solo, you can do your bench press in a squat rack and set the safety pins just an inch below your chest (when in bench press position). That way when you are doing your barbell press with proper form (a small arch in back) the bar wont hit the pins but if the weight is too much, when you collapse, your chest will be below the pins and the weight will be caught by the pins, thus not crushing you.

Power Rack*

Just ask for a spotter, nobody is going to get pissed about it. If i'm unable to get the bar off me, I just roll it onto my legs, and set it on the ground. This works fine, unless you are lifting really heavy.

[bojangles]

I do dumbells for chest press, on the odd occasion I'll use the bar but I'm up to 34kg on each hand now, doing well for a skinny runt

[Sonsowey]

I am just wondering if this helps you get bigger as much as regular bench? Does anyone know?

[The Reactionary Tree]

(08-29-2014 02:18 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

I am just wondering if this helps you get bigger as much as regular bench? Does anyone know?

I think all you are going to find out there is broscience when it comes to that.

Usually its the amount of reps you do that determine endurance, hypertrophy or strength. I cannot say whether or not dumbbells are superior to barbells or vice-a-versa for hypertrophy.

For a regular press, I dont think it matters. Dumbbells are used for hypertrophy with exercises like incline presses and flies.

[Sonsowey]

Ahh bro science.

"I want to get big" -> "I intend to achieve hypertrophy"

[scorpion]

Heavy benching with either dumbbells or barbell is both the most overrated and most dangerous exercise you can do. A totally pointless exercise for anyone except competitive powerlifters for whom it is an athletic event. For guys focused on bodybuilding and aesthetics, there are better ways to induce hypertrophy in your pecs. For athletes, there are superior movements to train both upper body strength and explosive power. For casual lifters, you're more likely to fuck up your rotator cuff trying to bench heavy than you are to make great gains from benching.

Laying against a hard surface with a heavy weight balanced over your chest is a totally unnatural movement that has zero biomechanical transfer into the real world. In this regard benching actually has more in common with some of the weird isolation machines than it does with the other compound lifts (squat, deadlift, press, clean, snatch).

Also, while it's fairly uncommon, guys regularly die while benching from having a loaded bar slip out of their hands and fall across their neck. Many more are seriously injured in this manner. The injury rate on benching far exceeds any other lift, which is exactly what you'd expect from an unnatural and biomechanically unsound movement.

I haven't benched in years and my chest development and overall upper body strength are both excellent. If anyone wants alternative exercises to benching post here or PM me.

[BigBoyPants]

(08-29-2014 04:24 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

If anyone wants alternative exercises to benching post here or PM me.

Weighted Dips. /thread

Benching heavy isn't dangerous if you are doing it in a power rack. All you have to do is set the safety pins, and you're good to go.

[polymath]

Free weights are better because they don't constrain the motion -- YOU do. Keep at it, eat with a purpose, sleep more than adequately, and you will see gains.

You don't have to optimize your routine to improve yourself. You just have to work hard at something reasonably close to optimal.

[Doctor]

I think stating "guys regularly die benching" may be a slight overstatement.

[TheFinalEpic]

To the "guys regularly die" comment. Bench with a spotter then, and don't use a "suicide grip" in which your thumbs are not wrapped around the bar, and you press with the lower palm of the hand.

Now, regularly switch between barbell and dumbbell presses, in order to achieve a solid pectoral workout. Hit all of the incline, flat, and decline variations. Supplement with flies, dips, and loaded machines as well.

The only benefit of dumbbells is a larger range of motion and an incorporation of stabilizers. With a barbell you can load more weight. Its a trade off. Train both.

[Hades]

Barbells have a greater range of motion than dumbbells with respect to bench pressing.

I wouldn't say that db bench press is worthless but you can't really load it enough to make it worth doing once you flat or incline bench bodyweight. If you want to get in a bunch of easy backoff sets after you do your regular flat bench then go ahead.

If you have terrible shoulder mobility, ignore hitting your rear delts, don't do military press, or press behind the neck, or rows, and/or don't pull your scaps back when you bench, then you can probably expect rotator cuff problems eventually.

Most people who trash talk the bench as a lift are terrible at it. While I think it has taken too much attention away from the military press and the olympic lifts, society at large measures your worth as a lifter in how many pounds you can flat bench. Women and pantywaists are generally terrible at it, making it a fairly masculine lift. And Arnie benched often and heavy, and had an enormous chest as a result, and everybody loves Arnold. That's enough reason to bench, IMO.

[Laser]

I use both barbells and dumbells. The main advantage to a barbell vs. a dumbell is that you can load the bar in smaller increments than a dumbell, which helps in a linear progression. The standard dumbell progression is 5 pounds between dumbells. With microplates, you can increase a barbell by as little as 1.25 pound increments

[scorpion]

(08-30-2014 12:38 AM)Hades Wrote:  


Most people who trash talk the bench as a lift are terrible at it. While I think it has taken too much attention away from the military press and the olympic lifts, society at large measures your worth as a lifter in how many pounds you can flat bench. Women and pantywaists are generally terrible at it, making it a fairly masculine lift. And Arnie benched often and heavy, and had an enormous chest as a result, and everybody loves Arnold. That's enough reason to bench, IMO.

Lifting is not a dick measuring contest. You aren't "more masculine" because you bench. If anything, you're just a sheep for going along with an unsound lift simply because it's culturally popular. You don't have to bench just because Arnold benched. Are you going to fuck a fat, Hispanic maid too, just because Arnold did?

Anyway, my point is simply that benching really has no purpose except to get better at benching. The bench press is such an extremely unnatural movement that the strength you get from it has very little function compared to a deadlift, squat, press or clean. Those lifts work because they mirror natural human movements while adding weight. The bench press is not a natural human movement.

So you're doing this pointless movement that serves no real purpose, and at the same time you're placing enormous stress on the shoulders. The bench press is the number one cause of shoulder injuries in the gym. While its rare to die while benching, it's extremely common to fuck up your rotator cuff. Shoulder injuries and pec tears from benching are the most common injuries among bodybuilders and powerlifters.

The bench press is just a disaster waiting to happen. There's absolutely no reason to be doing them unless you're a competitive powerlifter.

So why don't you hear this opinion more often? It's a combination of most people not knowing what they're talking about, overconfidence and historical bias. Guys like to bench because benching is the cultural standard for strength. And who is some random asshole to tell you that you shouldn't be benching? You've been benching heavy for years with no problems. But then one day your shoulder pops and it's too late. Now you get it. Now you understand, but it's too late now. You're going to be dealing with that bad shoulder for the rest of your life.

If you go to a serious gym, notice how many of the guys who are 40+ and still jacked are benching heavy. In my experience, it's a very small percentage. The guys who are in it for the long run understand that joint health is the number one priority, and shoulder health in particular is especially important. It's absolutely fucking stupid to overstress your shoulders on a pointless lift like the bench, especially when there are tons of superior alternatives.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/bench-pr...cise-40883

http://www.tonygentilcore.com/blog/5-way...-friendly/

[Moma]

(08-29-2014 04:24 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

I haven't benched in years and my chest development and overall upper body strength are both excellent. If anyone wants alternative exercises to benching post here or PM me.

Describe excellent.

[MikeS]

I'm using dumbells as a bench press alternative at the moment for the first time in countless years. But the only reason is pretty much a minor wrist injury where the barbell puts too much strain on the area.
Assorted minor injuries to wrists, elbows and shoulders - plus fairly poor shoulder mobility in general, as Hades mentioned above - have been the primary reasons for occasionally using dumbells instead of barbells for assorted exercises over the years. They often make it possible to twist the hands or arms enough to put less strain on an injury.

I do remember doing plenty of dumbell exercises the first several years I worked out in my teens though, back then mostly because I thought doing a greater variety of exercises would lead to faster gains. (On a mostly unrelated side note, I've never since been as strong as I was in my late teens - after around three or four years of working out. Almost 20 years later I've long since settled for the athletic look rather than the massive bodybuilder look I dreamed of when I was 15 or 16.)

[Doctor]

Can you explain how a clean or press (assuming overhead) is somehow more natural or mimics more natural human movements? And by clean, I mean an actual clean. Not a reverse power curl.

And I am pretty sure no one is arguing that everyone should bench heavy for 30+ years or everyone 40+ should be be benching heavy.

I don't get why people rationalize avoiding everything for the sake of injury avoidance. You can break you leg, or worse, walking down stairs.

[scorpion]

(08-30-2014 12:50 PM)Moma Wrote:  

(08-29-2014 04:24 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

I haven't benched in years and my chest development and overall upper body strength are both excellent. If anyone wants alternative exercises to benching post here or PM me.

Describe excellent.

For upper body strength, I weigh around 205 and hit a strict press (not push press) at 175 for 5 reps.

For pec development, just imagine this:



Ok, maybe not really on that level. But my chest development is well in-line with the rest of my physique and doesn't lag behind any other body parts.

[scorpion]

(08-30-2014 01:21 PM)Doctor Wrote:  

Can you explain how a clean or press (assuming overhead) is somehow more natural or mimics more natural human movements? And by clean, I mean an actual clean. Not a reverse power curl.

And I am pretty sure no one is arguing that everyone should bench heavy for 30+ years or everyone 40+ should be be benching heavy.

I don't get why people rationalize avoiding everything for the sake of injury avoidance. You can break you leg, or worse, walking down stairs.

Press = lifting something over your head while standing. A natural biomechanical movement.

Clean = lifting something quickly off the floor. A natural biomechanical movement.

Bench = laying with your back flat against an elevated, hard surface and perilously balancing a weight with your outstretched arms over your head and neck. A biomechanical movement that occurs nowhere in nature.

Also, please point out where I advised people to "avoid everything". I simply advised avoiding heavy bench pressing. Not squatting. Not deadlifting. Not cleans. Not lifting in general. Heavy bench pressing. One lift.

And yes, you can break your leg walking down the stairs. But that's a bad analogy. Because stairs serve a practical purpose to which there are (elevator notwithstanding) no alternatives. The bench press is not like this - not only is it unsafe, it is wholly unnecessary, with numerous better options available to replace it. Instead of walking down stairs, the proper analogy would be jumping down the entire flight of stairs either as an "exercise" or as a dick measuring contest. In both cases you'd be needlessly doing an activity with a high rate of injury for no real benefit.

[Moma]

(08-30-2014 01:30 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

(08-30-2014 12:50 PM)Moma Wrote:  

(08-29-2014 04:24 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

I haven't benched in years and my chest development and overall upper body strength are both excellent. If anyone wants alternative exercises to benching post here or PM me.

Describe excellent.

For upper body strength, I weigh around 205 and hit a strict press (not push press) at 175 for 5 reps.

For pec development, just imagine this:



Ok, maybe not really on that level. But my chest development is well in-line with the rest of my physique and doesn't lag behind any other body parts.

Your pec development is also to do with your genetics. I know a guy who was weak overall on presses but used the handlebar pushup bars religiously and had nice pecs.

I strongly believe that there is nothing that beats growing upper body strength than the bench press. I've been working out for years now and hung out with tons of swole cats. If you believe there is something that counters that as effectively in the same space of time, I welcome your input.

[scorpion]

(08-30-2014 02:05 PM)Moma Wrote:  

I strongly believe that there is nothing that beats growing upper body strength than the bench press. If you believe there is something that counters that as effectively in the same space of time, I welcome your input.

It's very simple: lift heavy in your squats, deadlifts and presses. Those are the core lifts for putting on size and strength. For chest development I recommend a mix of HIT (high intensity training) push ups, medium-heavy (i.e. 15-20 rep max) HIT dumb bell benches, weighted dips and cable flies.

Most of the functional upper body strength you gain from benching can be gained better through pressing. Then you the other pec-specific exercises I mentioned to fill in the gaps.

[Foolsgo1d]

I have done pressing ever since I started going to the gym.

Plenty of alternatives to the bench press, which in itself is a recent development that powerlifters find a staple of their diet. Its not very athletic.

However its one true advantage is the weight you can move. Many lifters are driven by ego and it is seen to be much more safer than the overhead variety. Even though you can get pinned or crushed/killed by a failed bench.

A proper bench rack is golden if you have long limbs and over 6ft in height.

However as much as I like bench now, I do not focus on it. I do 5x5 and 4x10 on alternate days for size and endurance. My arms and shoulders are thicker because of this.

I also do;

- Standing push press (heavy)
- DB one arm press (heavy)
- Incline DB press (moderate)


The bench press if done incorrectly can injure you pretty easily. The pressure in your shoulders can create issues and put you out of action for some time. It has been a while since I hurt myself on the bench and this is through better technique. If you want a big chest and arms to match you shouldn't take bench pressing (barbel) out of your workout.

Just don't focus on it.

I'd also like to say that weighted dips is even more hazardous than bench pressing. You can dislocate your shoulders if you fuck it up.

[Doctor]

You described press and clean. And then stated they are a natural movement. A clean is far more than "lifting something quickly off the floor". And picking stuff up quickly is not "natural". Ask older dudes about that.

Unless you are going to explain any bio mechanical process to me, just stating that lifting something over your head is more "natural" is irrelevant. Go live in nature and tell me how many times you do a strict overhead press.

Newsflash; nothing you do in the gym is "natural. You're using a bar (or machine) that is a set length and symmetrically loaded and it allows you to keep it close to your center of gravity. Also, muscles contract. That's it. They don't contract functionally. The don't contract dynamically. They're dumb. If your numerous is moving in a certain direction in a certain ROM, you pecs don't care what you're doing.

If my stairs analogy was bad, yours is no better. I think mine is less of an extrapolation.

You keep stating high rate of injury. I guess if you say it enough it then it becomes fact. You originally stated people regularly die benching. How is that an even remotely credible statement? I think you keep overstating things. Crossfit has a high rate of injury and that is all "natural" and "functional" training.

I'm not even pro-benching. I think you're overstating and fear mongering against the bench press. A lot of guys on here have said it correctly; if you use proper technique, programming, and spotters you will drastically cut chances of injury and see a massive for relational benefit.