[scorpion]

(08-30-2014 02:32 PM)Doctor Wrote:  

You described press and clean. And then stated they are a natural movement. A clean is far more than "lifting something quickly off the floor". And picking stuff up quickly is not "natural". Ask older dudes about that.

Unless you are going to explain any bio mechanical process to me, just stating that lifting something over your head is more "natural" is irrelevant. Go live in nature and tell me how many times you do a strict overhead press.

Newsflash; nothing you do in the gym is "natural. You're using a bar (or machine) that is a set length and symmetrically loaded and it allows you to keep it close to your center of gravity. Also, muscles contract. That's it. They don't contract functionally. The don't contract dynamically. They're dumb. If your numerous is moving in a certain direction in a certain ROM, you pecs don't care what you're doing.

If my stairs analogy was bad, yours is no better. I think mine is less of an extrapolation.

You keep stating high rate of injury. I guess if you say it enough it then it becomes fact. You originally stated people regularly die benching. How is that an even remotely credible statement? I think you keep overstating things. Crossfit has a high rate of injury and that is all "natural" and "functional" training.

I'm not even pro-benching. I think you're overstating and fear mongering against the bench press. A lot of guys on here have said it correctly; if you use proper technique, programming, and spotters you will drastically cut chances of injury and see a massive for relational benefit.

I don't know how I can explain it any more clearly. You read but you don't understand.

Natural movement essentially means that very similar biomechanical motions are performed in everyday life with varying degrees of weight. For example, babies regularly bust out bodyweight squats. The squat is a natural human movement. Barbell squats simply add weight.

Men have been lifting things overhead for millennia, and lifting heavy things off the ground (clean, deadlift). Barbells just replicate these natural movements.

Prior to the 1950s no one ever lifted anything similar to a barbell bench press, because the movement didn't exist. You don't naturally mimic the bench press biomechanics when running, jumping, climbing or picking up and carrying things the way you do with other exercises. Cavemen were not laying down on rocks and balancing other heavy rocks over themselves.

And I'm not saying high rate of injury and pulling it out of my ass. It's a well-known and documented fact that bench pressing results in a ton of injuries at all experience levels. And yes, people do regularly die while benching. Google bench press deaths.

To be honest, I think you should simply stop posting in this thread. You simply have no idea what you're talking about and are making nonsensical and/or uninformed arguments.

[Doctor]

One more before I take your advice and stop posting is this thread. Just because I'm bored.

I'll forego listing I've lifted X amount in competition or I weigh X amount with a pretty low BF %. I probably have no idea about Ny of that either.

Of course squats are a natural movement. Nobody is disputing that. I'm pretty sure I never once mentioned the squat.

Guys have been lifting things overhead for millennia? I'm pretty sure that was the original (well maybe not quite THE original) pissing match.

I'll make you a deal. I'll google "bench press deaths" if you YouTube "olympic weightlifting clean" and explain the me how that is "natural" and/or any safer than a bench press.

[Hades]

True, the bench press did not exist before the 50s. I'm pretty sure Doug Hepburn helped popularize it in North America.

If the only movements one can and should do in the gym must be "natural" and "functional" movements, then it follows that you can pretty much kick out all the over-40 crowd from the gym, as I'm sure if they're not pressing and deadlifting they're using the Cybex machines and fraying their ACLs on the leg extension. Unnatural, for sure.

If you don't like the bench press and disagree with it fundamentally as a bullshit lift that was invented in the 50s, that's a good stance I can relate with. In another world where the golden age of iron (Saxon, Sandow, Goerner) went straight to the modern age with no Joe Weider and Arthur Nautilus fucking everything up then the bench press would not have happened. We would still be scrambling for 19 inch plates to beat Hackenschmidt at the floor press.

I'm still going to flat and incline bench, as I have found that doing these lifts with a close grip hits the triceps pretty well and helps most of my other lifts.

Good alternatives do exist to the bench press, as you've pointed out, Scorpion. Overhead pressing is pretty badass. There were lifters who existed prior to the invention of the bench press, ripped and jacked and doing lifts that have yet to be duplicated to the point where the average RVFer would claim dbol and dead by thirty, despite testosterone not having been isolated yet. I guess it's a testament to the soft modern age.

I think carryover from one lift to another is worth mentioning but not to the degree that the "functional strength" crowd would have it.

Overhead pressing carries over more to bench press than the obverse, but benching is still worth doing and can be done safely. I don't jump into a car and fantasize about how an 18 wheeler is going to go screaming down the wrong side of the freeway and turn me into hamburger in the same way I'm not going to avoid bench pressing because a few Darwin award recipients do high risk lifts without a spotter.

It can cause rotator cuff injuries, for sure, but I can guarantee that my shoulder mobility and health is leagues ahead of practically everyone else in the gym. I can do a 40 pound shoulder dislocation with my hands at shoulder width apart because I've been training it for two years.

If a regular lifter does his reading and has a lot of variability in his upper body lifts (bench, incline, regular dips, behind the neck presses, BTN push presses, jerks, military, db clean and presses, overhead squat lockouts, heavy supports, unilateral db oly lifts, handstand pushups, various gymnastic movements, etc) and never fails to do enough pulling with respect to pressing volume, then the overuse injuries prevalent in bench bros can be mitigated. The shoulder joint has an enormous range of motion and you have to train it from many angles for safety.

[Moma]

I agree with doctor and hades. Bench press isn't as dangerous as it is made out. I've worked out for years and bench press is a very good way to get that raw pushing strength. I've also worked out with tons of bodybuilders and real personal trainers..not those cornflakes crash course jokers.

You can't load as much up with the dumbbells since you need to balance a weight per hand. You can compensate on a total overall raw weight with the barbell since you are using both hands.

Of course, it's good to mix up your workout routine, adhere strictly to technique and warm up before working out.

But saying that millions of people die from bench press is invalid as a reason not to do it. I hear people die from planking on their balconies and falling off but that's because they are dumb asses.

We do pushups to simulate the bench press. We use a bench press because we don't have enough weight to simulate the force to accomplish that in a pushup unless you get a really fat lizard to spread herself equally on your back.

Doing 15-20 reps of pushups won't cut it. You don't put on size by high reps. You need about maybe 6-8 reps of high intensity to get that raw muscle. Going into the 15-20 rep range will just get muscle endurance. Different goal there.

[BortimusPrime]

(08-30-2014 02:57 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

Prior to the 1950s no one ever lifted anything similar to a barbell bench press, because the movement didn't exist. You don't naturally mimic the bench press biomechanics when running, jumping, climbing or picking up and carrying things the way you do with other exercises. Cavemen were not laying down on rocks and balancing other heavy rocks over themselves.

What about if a fat woman is trying to sit on your face and you have to push her off?

[bojangles]

Scorpion is right about fucking up your rotator cuff though, I did mine doing capoeira 2 years ago, it's never recovered and whilst pressing dumbells at an incline I feel the strain on it.

[The Lizard of Oz]

(08-31-2014 06:38 AM)bojangles Wrote:  

Scorpion is right about fucking up your rotator cuff though, I did mine doing capoeira 2 years ago, it's never recovered and whilst pressing dumbells at an incline I feel the strain on it.

Guys, please do not neglect the stick exercise for rehabilitating rotator cuff injuries, and as a preventive exercise to maintain rotator cuff health. I wrote about it here:

(03-28-2014 08:58 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

I want to emphasize once again the immense benefits of the rotator cuff stick exercise for general shoulder health and for both healing and preventing shoulder injuries.

I used to get more or less serious rotator cuff tweaks all the time from bench pressing and other movements. Now I never do and it's entirely because of this exercise.

I do sets of 50 of these -- yeah it sounds like a lot but you want to always be coming in a little with your grip as the set progresses. However, you don't need to start with 50. Do these religiously and your shoulders and rotators cuffs will be thanking you every day.

Here is a great thread that describes the exercise in detail, posted by the guy who basically invented it (the great Dante):

http://www.intensemuscle.com/showthread.php?t=6997

And this is the absolute best video demo on how it's done. I posted it before but I'm doing it again because this demo is so good:

Also see some subsequent posts in that thread where I gave more detailed suggestions.

The guy that I recommended this exercise to, Blackwell, had a serious rotator cuff injury. By using the stick exercise consistently with rigorous form, he was able to effectively heal the injury:

(04-20-2014 11:50 AM)Blackwell Wrote:  

Lizard - The stick exercise has made a dramatic difference to my shoulder pain and my ability to battle it whilst training.

I'm currently doing a set of 25, taking 30 seconds and then another 25. I'm slowly edging my hands closer together maybe every 2-3 days.

Every week the pain lessens and my mobility improves, I can finally flat and incline bench again. It is liberating to actually have close to full functionality and be able to embrace my physicality again. I'm getting back to the point I was at before the pain crippled me. Muscle memory is a beautiful thing. I will continue pushing with the stick exercise trying to get it to a straight 50 set and all of this will hopefully allow me to peak in time for summer. I got a lot of pick up rivalries that need taken care of.

Huge thanks to you man, seriously just one little thing like this can make such a difference. You can't fathom how appreciative I am, my physicality is everything to me.

The ankle is ok, I have implemented a couple of the rehab and prevention exercises you suggested into my leg routine and the braces I bought are excellent and I do think they will prevent further rolls. However this last sprain is still not quite healed yet, I took a few weeks off but I played the other for maybe 3 hours of on off physical pick up and it swelled a little that evening, I iced, rested and watch the playoffs and it feels a little better today. It's a delicate joint I know that so I will probably just hit the weights hard this week and rest it until the end of the week.

Please take a look at this exercise -- even if you do not currently have rotator cuff problems, it is an awesome exercise to do to maintain rotator cuff health, break scar tissue, and increase flexibility

[Mage]

(08-30-2014 01:41 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

Bench = laying with your back flat against an elevated, hard surface and perilously balancing a weight with your outstretched arms over your head and neck. A biomechanical movement that occurs nowhere in nature.

Wrong
There is a practical use for bench pressing

Altrough I must admit I had to apply this practical use only once in my life but hey - many people train in martial arts for life and are glad to never have to use them in real life.

So I introduce you to:
   

Once I had to move a similar shaped furniture while making repairs in my home. This thing was filled with stuff on both sides and I didn't really want to waste time to unload it and then load it all back. The shape of this furniture is very unhandy for lifting, mere pulling would scratch the floor. Solution? I lied under the center and bench pressed the whole thing and moved it slighty sideways each time when I lifted it up!

Note: even trough it is possible to move this thing by two people lifting each side simultaneously, bench pressing is a saver if you are just one or if you must move this furniture in corner where there is no place between the furniture and the wall for a person to stand.

Now all the world's bench press douchebags may sigh in a relief! Mage has discovered a practical use for our sweat-honed talent!

[Little Dark]

I passed out once with over 220, could have been 245 lbs on the bar with no spotter. I simply blacked out for 1-2 seconds and realized a loaded bar was on my chest.

I have experience training alone and know how to handle failing with a barbell over you(roll of shame). Learn this.

I possibly tore my rotator cuff about 2 years ago and haven't lifted since then so to be honest I think you should just pass on flat benching, incline is safer and has an easier groove. Balance it out with some heavy overhead work and you're laughing.

[rhodey]

(08-30-2014 12:38 AM)Hades Wrote:  

Barbells have a greater range of motion than dumbbells with respect to bench pressing.

I think you meant to say the opposite, correct?

[rhodey]

(08-30-2014 12:43 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

(08-30-2014 12:38 AM)Hades Wrote:  


Most people who trash talk the bench as a lift are terrible at it. While I think it has taken too much attention away from the military press and the olympic lifts, society at large measures your worth as a lifter in how many pounds you can flat bench. Women and pantywaists are generally terrible at it, making it a fairly masculine lift. And Arnie benched often and heavy, and had an enormous chest as a result, and everybody loves Arnold. That's enough reason to bench, IMO.

Lifting is not a dick measuring contest. You aren't "more masculine" because you bench. If anything, you're just a sheep for going along with an unsound lift simply because it's culturally popular. You don't have to bench just because Arnold benched. Are you going to fuck a fat, Hispanic maid too, just because Arnold did?

Anyway, my point is simply that benching really has no purpose except to get better at benching. The bench press is such an extremely unnatural movement that the strength you get from it has very little function compared to a deadlift, squat, press or clean. Those lifts work because they mirror natural human movements while adding weight. The bench press is not a natural human movement.

So you're doing this pointless movement that serves no real purpose, and at the same time you're placing enormous stress on the shoulders. The bench press is the number one cause of shoulder injuries in the gym. While its rare to die while benching, it's extremely common to fuck up your rotator cuff. Shoulder injuries and pec tears from benching are the most common injuries among bodybuilders and powerlifters.

The bench press is just a disaster waiting to happen. There's absolutely no reason to be doing them unless you're a competitive powerlifter.

So why don't you hear this opinion more often? It's a combination of most people not knowing what they're talking about, overconfidence and historical bias. Guys like to bench because benching is the cultural standard for strength. And who is some random asshole to tell you that you shouldn't be benching? You've been benching heavy for years with no problems. But then one day your shoulder pops and it's too late. Now you get it. Now you understand, but it's too late now. You're going to be dealing with that bad shoulder for the rest of your life.

If you go to a serious gym, notice how many of the guys who are 40+ and still jacked are benching heavy. In my experience, it's a very small percentage. The guys who are in it for the long run understand that joint health is the number one priority, and shoulder health in particular is especially important. It's absolutely fucking stupid to overstress your shoulders on a pointless lift like the bench, especially when there are tons of superior alternatives.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/bench-pr...cise-40883

http://www.tonygentilcore.com/blog/5-way...-friendly/

I agree with some of the things said here , disagree with others. In my experience the standard grip flat bench press has caused me nothing but problems. For many it supposedly places the shoulder joint in a vulnerable position coupled with ample shearing force.

That said ,I think an individuals mileage will vary with the flat bench based on their individual leverages. Some guys are just built for this movement. I notice guys with big rib cages and shorter arms don't have the same level of shoulder discomfort when they go heavy. For them it's a great movement.

I can Incline barbell bench with much less discomfort . IMO this a great exercise since it carries over to both your flat bench and military press. Also flat barbell benching with a closer grip takes a lot of pressure off my shoulders - picked that up from Paul Carter.

Dumbbell presses in my (and many others) experience is a superior movement for pectoral stimulation. Provided you have shoulder mobility , the range of motion and planes transversal, exceeds Barbell bench press by far. I don't get this argument that you cant load up on dumbbells? Why not? I see many guys who are too damn weak to kick dumbbells up without a spot because they lack the core strength and thus give up on the movement . But Imo because of the range (and scope) of motion advantages you really don't need super heavy dumbbells to build good full pecs.

I'm no superman,my flat bench is maybe 290 lb but since emphasizing dumbbells , my pecs have blown up like balloons. Guess what? My work sets are currently a measly 80 lbs for reps of 10-12. I lift these "doggcrapp" style, explosive on the positive and slow and controlled (4 secs or so) on the negative portion. 4 sets is all it takes and my pecs are on fire... Flat barbell bench for me never hit my pecs nearly as well and after 250lbs or more my shoulders would be sore.

Just my 2 cents.

[The Reactionary Tree]

Relevant video:

For strength: use barbell

For hypertrophy: use dumbbells

Recommendation: do both in your routine

[berserk]

I'm with Scorpion on this one. Bench has given me nothing but shoulder problems. I used to be weak in it, but after training with a guy who benches heavy, I quickly got up in kg, so it's not because I am weak, but because it feels very uncomfortable to bench.

I almost purely train overhead press now and there is no doubt in my mind that it's a much better lift for overall upper development than the bench. My traps have blown up like crazy, triceps huge, upper chest good, even strengthens abs and back. It's a true compound movement. I also seriously question the effect of the bench on pec development, unless you're juicing or has genetics which respond well to it. Most bodybuilders I see don't bench heavy, but do lots of incline and flyes. I find it very hard to hit upper and inner chest with the flat bench.

You say, those who criticize bench are weak at it, but those who criticize overhead press are definitely weak in that lift. And that is very common, because the press is the slowest lift to progress in and lifting 40kg over your head as a noob doesn't look as cool as benching 80kg, never mind pressing 80 kg vs benching 120 kg.

I just challenge you to try switching to overhead press as your main press/chest exercise for a month or two and report back on results. I think you will like what you see.

[Sonsowey]

Scorpion,

I have hurt my shoulder before while going up in weight doing dumbell shoulder press. So I am totally amenable to hearing alternative ideas of how to maintain your joints healthy.

I am still not very big though. I am benching 70lbs in each hand. When you say doing "heavy" bench press is dangerous, exactly how heavy do you mean?

If I understand you right, you also do dumbell bench press, correct? I am far from a place where I can bench 2x my bodyweight, for example. Do you think 5x5 dumbell bench press is itself dangerous at around 70-75lbs per hand?

[scorpion]

(09-01-2014 02:45 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

Scorpion,

I have hurt my shoulder before while going up in weight doing dumbell shoulder press. So I am totally amenable to hearing alternative ideas of how to maintain your joints healthy.

I am still not very big though. I am benching 70lbs in each hand. When you say doing "heavy" bench press is dangerous, exactly how heavy do you mean?

If I understand you right, you also do dumbell bench press, correct? I am far from a place where I can bench 2x my bodyweight, for example. Do you think 5x5 dumbell bench press is itself dangerous at around 70-75lbs per hand?

In terms of what's safe to lift, absolute weight isn't as meaningful as relative weight. What's safe for one guy will be way to heavy for another, obviously, so it's best to speak it terms of a rep range. I think 5 rep sets on any form of bench is too low for a new lifter. You'll get superior gains more safely by lifting something you can hit for 10-15 reps in a very controlled fashion (slow negatives like rhodey mentioned, for example).

As for maintaining joint health, it's a combination of being very strict with your form, listening to your body (i.e. if you're feeling a little weak one day just go a little lighter, don't try to push your max just because) and warming up the joints prior to lifting.

[Sonsowey]

Thanks for the advice Scorpion

[clever alias]

as far as training.exercises go, bench press should be down the list. for contact sports, squats and cleans are big.

and cleans are not natural lifts at all, otherwise they wouldnt be so damn hard to do correctly, just like snatches. jump and shrug == oly lifts

and everyone here should probably check out mikes podcast on training and ego