[Sonsowey]

"Israel broadened its assault on Gaza on Tuesday, reportedly wrecking the region's only power plant and killing more than 125 Palestinians.

The shelling of the power plant, which Palestinian officials described as taking a devastating hit, will bring additional hardship. The lack of electricity will make existing problems with water and sewage far worse.

"We need at least one year to repair the power plant, the turbines, the fuel tanks and the control room," Fathi Sheik Khalil of the Gaza energy authority told the Guardian. "Everything was burned.""

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014...ower-plant

What would you do if you were in Gaza?

[Luvianka]

(08-02-2014 11:13 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

"Israel broadened its assault on Gaza on Tuesday, reportedly wrecking the region's only power plant and killing more than 125 Palestinians.

The shelling of the power plant, which Palestinian officials described as taking a devastating hit, will bring additional hardship. The lack of electricity will make existing problems with water and sewage far worse.

"We need at least one year to repair the power plant, the turbines, the fuel tanks and the control room," Fathi Sheik Khalil of the Gaza energy authority told the Guardian. "Everything was burned.""

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014...ower-plant

What would you do if you were in Gaza?

Ladies and Gentlmen, we are witnessing a Genocide carried on in the largest concentration camp ever!

[The Beast1]

Not sure what to feel about this, but I'm starting to see this as genocide.

[Veloce]

(08-02-2014 11:47 PM)frenchie Wrote:  

Not sure what to feel about this, but I'm starting to see this as genocide.

Which is exactly what Hamas would want you to say and feel.

[MidWest]

Damn! For real? Wow, I always thought those countries bombed each other all the time and thought nothing of it now.

Are they invading with soldiers, tanks and the whole nine yards? or?

[Sonsowey]

Yes israel is invading Gaza with ground troops, tanks and airstrikes. http://www.smh.com.au/world/gaza-ceasefi...zzlv2.html

As far as I know, rockets fired from Gaza have killed zero Israelis. The only Israeli casualties have been the soldiers actually invading. Gaza has suffered over 1,000 deaths, most of them civilian.

[Feisbook Control]

Maybe the Palestinians will finally start to realise that there are consequences to actions. Probably not though.

You don't fight wars to give the enemy a fighting chance. You fight wars to win, and decisively (if possible) at that.

[TheTemple]

If Isreal is in the process of enforcing full genocide on its borders, then they are no better than the German Nazi party for their holocaust.

Its quite shameful.

[svenski7]

(08-03-2014 12:08 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

As far as I know, rockets fired from Gaza have killed zero Israelis.

Because of a missile defense system that took a decade to create and was funded in large part by the US taxpayer. If it wasn't for Israel's Iron Dome technology, there would have been dozen if not 100-200 civilian casualties on their side.

So what you're telling us to feel sorry for the Palestinians because they failed to see the writing on the wall that eventually Israel would find a way to effectively stop their rocket attacks? You mean to tell me that because of a DISRUPTIVE TECHNOLOGY that is saving countless innocent lives in Israel this fight is all of a sudden no longer fair?

That's like feeling sorry for IRT because his only opener was:

"Do you know how much a polar bear weighs? .... Enough to break the ice!"

...and now its not working out for him anymore.

Fuck both sides but why feel sorry for a group of people run by a genocidal junta that can't adapt to Fourth Generation warfare or even accept and honor a cease fire. Is there no honor in Islam when you accept a cease fire? Because the very next day they snuck over and kidnapped a soldier and probably cut his throat by now.

[Sonsowey]

It was a small group within Hamas that started this conflict, not the Palestinian people as a whole. Elements within Hamas urged against a conflict but some people wouldnt listena nd began firing rockets. This is not a modern military but a group that obviously can not even impose order within its own ranks.

To punish all Gazans by bombing them into the stone age for the actions of a particular group is cruel. We do not bomb Mexico for gang violence here. Imagine if we knocked out all the electricity in mexico because gang members were killing people here. Would you say "Well, maybe Mexicans will learn that there are consequences for their actions."?

[svenski7]

(08-03-2014 12:20 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

It was a small group within Hamas that started this conflict, not the Palestinian people as a whole. Elements within Hamas urged against a conflict but some people wouldnt listena nd began firing rockets. This is not a modern military but a group that obviously can not even impose order within its own ranks.

Where is the personal responsibility? Why is the larger populace allowing a small group of extremists to control it? Why aren't they forcing them out of power so that their children and grandchildren can live in peace?

Were the Germans victims because the NSDAP (Nazi) party was not the majority? Did they not democratically elect them and put Adolf Hitler into power August 1, 1934?

Do you not believe in responsibilities for the way you vote and the people you choose to follow?

The people of Gaza Strip have continually supported and democratically elected this group that continuously runs them into war and open conflict with Israel.

They are getting what they voted for and yes, the majority of the inhabitants of the Gaza Strip DO want to KILL, MAIM, TORTURE JEWS and DESTROY the State of Israel utterly.

I am saying this as a person who thinks both of these groups should be COMPLETELY separated from the rest of the West.

[svenski7]

(08-03-2014 12:16 AM)Feisbook Control Wrote:  

Maybe the Palestinians will finally start to realise that there are consequences to actions. Probably not though.

You don't fight wars to give the enemy a fighting chance. You fight wars to win, and decisively (if possible) at that.

^This 100%

TheTemple Wrote:

If Isreal is in the process of enforcing full genocide on its borders, then they are no better than the German Nazi party for their holocaust.

Its quite shameful.

Stockholm Syndrome, absolutely.

[Sonsowey]

Svenski you assure us that those being bombed and dying deserve it because they would, according to you, like to do bad things. Yet no blame is being placed on those who are bombing an entire country to the stone age.

[TheWastelander]

War is war.

[VincentVinturi]

I train with an Israeli guy who saw action on the Gaza strip. He talks about it from time to time.

For what it's worth, he says that Hammas fabricates stories of Israelis killing children and such. They use children as human shields, whom the Israelis do not shoot (according to my buddy). Hammas uses photographs from Afghanistan and pawn them off as happening in Palestine.

Then the international media (CNN et al) pick it up and disseminate it as the truth. "Look what these terrible Jews are doing to the poor Palestinians".

Here's what I'm saying: The only people that know what the hell is really going on are the people on the ground. Don't trust a damn thing you hear from the world media.

[Feisbook Control]

The idea that the Palestinian rockets haven't killed anyone is asinine.

You're walking down the street. A guy throws a rock at your head, but misses, or you deflect it, etc. You run up to him to hit him. A third guy says, "Dude, it's cool. He missed! Don't hit him."

Hamas is committed to destroying Israel and the Jews. Not just in Israel, but all over the world. At this point, there is so much bad blood between both sides that I only see three long term possibilities: 1) Israel (and the Jews) are destroyed, or at least forced to flee, 2) the Palestinians are destroyed or forced to flee, 3) a third power keeps the peace (most likely without the consent of either group, i.e. as an imperial force) with the use, or threat, of extreme force. That's basically it.

It never ceases to amaze me how people can be so red pill about how human biology and power intersect in other ways, and yet we, in the blue pill West, have this absurd notion that everyone can, and will get along. This will be the end of us. Ten thousand years of human civilisation, and tens and hundreds of thousands more of humanity, say that people don't get along and never will.

[weambulance]

I don't know enough about the conflict to pick a side. Don't really care, honestly. Most of the world sucks, I'm not going to cry myself to sleep every time Group A decides to beat the shit out of Group B. That is the natural state of man. We are a tribal species.

However, the argument that a larger population is wholly innocent just because only a small, extremist faction is committing terrorist acts is horseshit. There's no way that small faction could continue to operate without tacit approval from the population at large. What Israel is doing is making things really fucking suck for the larger population, and showing them there are consequences for harboring the extremists.

How do you win a war? There are exactly two ways: you destroy the enemy's ability to fight, or you destroy their will to fight. It's sort of a combination in this case, in that Israel is destroying the will of the population to harbor the extremists, and as a result destroying the extremists' ability to fight.

Like I said, I'm not taking a side. But some of you are obviously absolutely clueless about the realities of war. You're upset over this? Maybe you should study up on the tactics used in WWI and WWII by all participants.

---

And what is this bullshit talk of genocide? Are you fucking kidding me? Less than 2000 people have died in a month. During the Vietnam war the US military was killing 7300 people per month on average over 10 years. Get a sense of perspective.

[Feisbook Control]

(08-03-2014 12:45 AM)VincentVinturi Wrote:  

I train with an Israeli guy who saw action on the Gaza strip. He talks about it from time to time.

For what it's worth, he says that Hammas fabricates stories of Israelis killing children and such. They use children as human shields, whom the Israelis do not shoot (according to my buddy). Hammas uses photographs from Afghanistan and pawn them off as happening in Palestine.

Then the international media (CNN et al) pick it up and disseminate it as the truth. "Look what these terrible Jews are doing to the poor Palestinians".

Here's what I'm saying: The only people that know what the hell is really going on are the people on the ground. Don't trust a damn thing you hear from the world media.

Quote:

Once a newspaper touches a story, the facts are lost forever, even to the protagonists.

-- Norman Mailer

[Sonsowey]

(08-03-2014 12:45 AM)VincentVinturi Wrote:  

For what it's worth, he says that Hammas fabricates stories of Israelis killing children and such. They use children as human shields, whom the Israelis do not shoot (according to my buddy).

You can't say "they use kids as human shields" but then say "we don't kill kids". The "human shield" excuse is a justification for killing civilians, saying that getting at Hamas outweighs the value of the civilian's life. Israel is not "shooting" at anyone, they are bombing.

Women and children are dying in Gaza. That's undeniable. Most deaths there have been Civilian.

Ask your friend now, I doubt he would deny right now that Israeli attacks have killed women and children. He may justify it with the "human shield" excuse, but whatever the reason he thinks it's acceptable, if he's a normal person he'll admit Israel is definitely dropping bombs which kill civilians.

[Glaucon]

I do not really care what they are doing. The only way this will end if one side gets totally destroyed. Fanatics are not capable of compromise.

[Vicious]

Israel is really losing the Information War in this conflict. That's really their only mistake.

[RawGod]

The war will end when the Zionist entity fades into the pages of history.

[WanderingSoul]

(08-03-2014 01:01 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

(08-03-2014 12:45 AM)VincentVinturi Wrote:  

For what it's worth, he says that Hammas fabricates stories of Israelis killing children and such. They use children as human shields, whom the Israelis do not shoot (according to my buddy).

You can't say "they use kids as human shields" but then say "we don't kill kids". The "human shield" excuse is a justification for killing civilians, saying that getting at Hamas outweighs the value of the civilian's life. Israel is not "shooting" at anyone, they are bombing.

Women and children are dying in Gaza. That's undeniable. Most deaths there have been Civilian.

Ask your friend now, I doubt he would deny right now that Israeli attacks have killed women and children. He may justify it with the "human shield" excuse, but whatever the reason he thinks it's acceptable, if he's a normal person he'll admit Israel is definitely dropping bombs which kill civilians.

Then it sounds to me like Hamas is the real villain here.

What kind of pieces of shit use children as human shields? Especially THEIR OWN children. And the Palestinians voted Hamas into office, right?

I don't see how Israel is taking an absolute beating in the media, but Hamas is not. The media and shit I see posted on Facebook makes it seem as if the Palestinians are being ruthlessly bombed by Israel for no reason at all.

But from what I'm reading it seems like Hamas, who was voted in by the Palestinian people, shot hundreds of rockets at Israel, who then returned fire on where those rockets were stored at, which also happened to be schools and places that Palestinian children frequent. And that Hamas intentionally did this.

Is that correct?

[soup]

[Sp5]

What is the Israeli end game? They exercise dominion over 4.5 million Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza. Plus there are 1.5 million Arabs who are Israeli citizens. Are they going to kill them all? Expel them to Jordan and Egypt?

It seems like they think they can keep them cooped up in non-sovereign, non-viable "bantustans" indefinitely and bomb them periodically when they get uppity. This Gaza campaign shows that is not going to work forever. World opinion is turning.

Everyone knows what the boundaries of a real settlement are - they were laid out by the Saudis and others in the Geneva proposal of a few years ago. A Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, roughly along the 1967 borders with some adjustments for the major Israeli settlements. Recognition of Israel by the Arab states.

I would add a common market for the region and some kind of trench highway/railway between Gaza and the West Bank. In the event of a real peace settlement, the aid money would flow into the area from the Gulf states, Europe and the USA.

The problem now is that Netanyahu and his coalition partners like Lieberman and Bennett, and the settlers, are fanatics who think they have a religious right to all of the West Bank. They insist on keeping huge swaths of land on the West Bank, including the whole Jordan valley, and all of Jerusalem, including the Arab quarters. That is not going to work, for all of their faults the Arabs do not give in.

Israel used to be populated by Central European Jews who were well educated, western in outlook. Now it's full of peasants from Morocco, Yemen, and Ethiopia and a lot of ex-Soviets, who have internalized the Soviet mentality. The country has changed through immigration.

If I were the Palestinian leader, I would dissolve the Palestinian authority and state that the Arabs on the West Bank and Gaza are now subject to Israeli direct rule with no participation of Palestinians. Then I would announce a "non-cooperation" movement like Gandhi's and make any payment of taxes conditional to being able to vote for representatives in the Knesset. Basically, give up on the separate state and demand the vote over my government and taxation.

That the Palestinian politicians have not done this is evidence of their own corruption - they are sucking on the teat of western aid and enjoying their own powerless titles - "president," "prime minister," "minister" etc.

As an American, my main concern is how this is dragging down my country. So many of our problems can be traced to blind support for Israel - Lebanon in the 1980s, even 9/11 and the Iraq war have their antecedents in Middle East involvement related to Israel. General Petraeus pointed this out a couple of years ago. Even war with Iran is being proposed, when Iran is not and will not be a threat to the USA.

It's as if the whole world is being held hostage by a few thousand fanatic settlers in the Jordan valley.