[Andy_B]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3YA6u4ttN0

This interview is long but 100% worth the watch.

If you ever thought that Sweden was some kind of feminist worst-case-scenario, it might make you think again. The guy being interviewed does a pretty good job showing that the situation in America re: Divorce is actually about 10 times worse & that Sweden's system is actually pretty reasonable. Covers alimony, child support caps, and other interesting topics.

[cool guy]

This is why Scandinavian girls are in no hurry to get married as they will get no cash and prizes after divorce court ends only child support for 6 months ha ha.

[jimukr104]

You pay for it from your taxes.

[Brian Boru]

Yes, it's bad, but North America isn't far behind.

[rudebwoy]

North America is worse.

[Menace]

Scandinavian system is very interesting. Certainly sounds way more reasonable than the US system. The problem in implementing this in the US is that family law is state law, not federal law. To have this happen in the entire country would require the US federal government to request a change in state law as a condition for getting funding. For example, the drinking age is set at 21 in each state as a condition of getting highway funds (it was the subject of a Supreme Court case actually).

I hope this doesn't turn into a Swedish bashing session, as these things often do. They have different priorities.

[Chaos]

For a long time I didn't know why Americans make such a big deal about marriage.
Before RVF I had never heard about words like "divorce rape".

Well, now I know better and I know that the woman has the right to claim 50% of the stuff you have. Isn't there any way around it?

What people do where I'm born is that before marriage they make a "marriage contract" of what will happen IF a divorce will happen. Usually it's written so the women can't walk away with nothing more than what she brought into the house. She can't claim anything of the guy's business or propety. BUT if this contract is not made, she has right to claim 50%.

One of my old friends inherited a big chunk of land and and sone houses of his parents.
The parents wrote in their testament that no woman who marry our son will have the right to make any claims of this land in case of a divorce. That the normal thing where I'm born.

But yeah, I've seen also horrible divorces who didn't make a contract before marriage.
Poor guys who got ruined.

[Chaos]

Sweden has also better taxation policies than for example Finland.

In Sweden you don't need to pay tax on things you inherit or gifts.
Everything OK if you grandparents want to give you a million dollars or their house or whatever.

But try the same thing in Finland you get raped on at least 30% in taxes.
It's unreal that you can't inherit a family business that have been in the same family for centuries without paying a lot of tax when every generation switch takes place.
It's already been taxed multiple times.

Fucking communist style.

[nomadicdude]

(07-28-2014 04:52 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

You pay for it from your taxes.

This is actually somewhat of a myth in America. When you factor in what Americans pay for taxes plus add what they pay for in premiums and co-pays for private health insurance their total is at or above western European countries.

Euros pay a lot in taxes but they get a lot back in terms of healthcare and social safety net benefits. Americans pay less in overall taxes but get back a lot less since most of the money is used for the military. Plus, America spends about twice as much for healthcare as a part of GDP than other developed countries.

[Deluge]

^Yup. It's not surprising really that Americans have a lower pain threshold for taxes then the other Western industrial countries once you consider how relatively little bang they get for their bucks. Echoing what cool guy said, it all comes down to incentives.

[jimukr104]

(07-28-2014 08:37 PM)Chaos Wrote:  

For a long time I didn't know why Americans make such a big deal about marriage.
Before RVF I had never heard about words like "divorce rape".

Well, now I know better and I know that the woman has the right to claim 50% of the stuff you have. Isn't there any way around it?

What people do where I'm born is that before marriage they make a "marriage contract" of what will happen IF a divorce will happen. Usually it's written so the women can't walk away with nothing more than what she brought into the house. She can't claim anything of the guy's business or propety. BUT if this contract is not made, she has right to claim 50%.

One of my old friends inherited a big chunk of land and and sone houses of his parents.
The parents wrote in their testament that no woman who marry our son will have the right to make any claims of this land in case of a divorce. That the normal thing where I'm born.

But yeah, I've seen also horrible divorces who didn't make a contract before marriage.
Poor guys who got ruined.

Actually if one isn't in a community property state and their is no children men don't really get that raped. Business guys often do because the profit is considered marriage property..and if reinvested in the business more so.
But the avg Joe with a 9-5 job and no kids basically walks away minus half of what is marriage property. In equitable division states it may not even by even.

[jimukr104]

(07-28-2014 09:16 PM)nomadicdude Wrote:  

(07-28-2014 04:52 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

You pay for it from your taxes.

This is actually somewhat of a myth in America. When you factor in what Americans pay for taxes plus add what they pay for in premiums and co-pays for private health insurance their total is at or above western European countries.

Euros pay a lot in taxes but they get a lot back in terms of healthcare and social safety net benefits. Americans pay less in overall taxes but get back a lot less since most of the money is used for the military. Plus, America spends about twice as much for healthcare as a part of GDP than other developed countries.

I meant that EU people get the services because of taxes paid.
True and not true. America is unequal. The avg Joe might only pay a small premium for Health care because of good coverage.Mine is free for example.
We pay much lower than most EU countries. We can even live in states where there is no income tax and VAT usually is higher than sales tax. Plus our costs are at least 20-30% lower for stuff.

To make an example. My federal taxes came out to 12k last year. My income( joint) was 104k. That means I paid only 12%.
Even if I paid full/city state taxes and Fica(retired so I don't)..my total would have been 20%. Guys in those earning brackets are paying 40-50% total in other countries.
Most Americans don't pay more than a few thousand per year for healthcare and with Obama care it won't be more than 9% I think.

We also have safety nets for the poor..medicaid..food stamps, etc.
In NYC seniors are even given rent freezes so their rent is never more than 1/3 income.

The real reason our education cost so much is because of cheap guaranteed loans. I always say get rid of easy loans and it will be the way it was. People have to work hard to go to school thus less demand for it. Costs would drop. They charge whatever they want because they know everyone will pay since they can get student loans.
In other countries people also have to earn their way in for the cheap education(not all countries)

Our medical system is similar..before insurance, costs were cheaper.

In the end I like our system better(except for medical). Rather have low taxes and pay for services I use than to subsidize a bunch of people I don't know or like.

Sure we also support immigrants and illegals but difference is those programs can always be reduced or cut. Tax rates rarely go down much once you have them.

That being said every country in EU is different so can't generalize.

[bojangles]

(07-28-2014 08:45 PM)Chaos Wrote:  

Sweden has also better taxation policies than for example Finland.

In Sweden you don't need to pay tax on things you inherit or gifts.
Everything OK if you grandparents want to give you a million dollars or their house or whatever.

But try the same thing in Finland you get raped on at least 30% in taxes.
It's unreal that you can't inherit a family business that have been in the same family for centuries without paying a lot of tax when every generation switch takes place.
It's already been taxed multiple times.

Fucking communist style.

Happens in the UK too, though you can easily bypass it

[corners]

Sweden versus United States, in pictures :

Been to Sweden, and the girls are in Top 5 Quality in Europe (number 1 remains Ukraine).

[berserk]

The interesting thing is that Sweden has a very vocal and political brand of feminism as I understand it. Constantly being talked about, you have political groups etc with a lot of influence, but the girls are actually very feminine, polite and sexy. Compare this to Denmark, where there is no political feminism or influential groups, but a lot of girls have internalized feminist ideas and dress and look the part. I don't know which is better. Denmark has much less Sovjet style propaganda and thought crimes, but dealing with the women sucks. Sweden has much better girls, but has an insane level of thought control.

Besides, I know it is 'in' and hipster for Americans to use Scandinavia as the poster child for socialism, but go and live there first before you claim it to be paradise. Try spending 12 hours in an emergency room or paying 180% taxes on your car.

Scandinavia is rich and functioning DESPITE socialism. Scandinavian countries made their wealth before the welfare states. Since implementing socialism, they've slid down all rankings of wealth and health care. The success of Scandinavia is because of a smart population with a high level of trust, or at least it used to be so. Low corruption etc.

[Brian Boru]

An a more positive note, the Sweden Democrats are gaining popularity and could return Sweden to a more common-sense path.

[Vicious]

Regarding the divorce.

Everything about the Swedish state is to encourage families living together and make it economically disadvantageous to dissolve a marriage. It's set up that way. The downside is that many couples with children live together without getting married.

This is an impossibility to implement in the US however since tort lawyers (where I bundle divorce lawyers) drive much of the legislation around marriage. If the US wants to regain the nuclear family it has to throw out these parasites from what is essentially a moral issue. I'm sure Scorpion would have a field day on that topic.

I would have zero issue getting married under the current system.

[Menace]

Certainly lawyers and other interested parties would lobby against it. The fulcrum in US politics is re-election, and the lever is money. But no one has more money than the federal government. You could really be creative and try to pass the Gender and Equity Fairness Legislation (you have to call it something retarded) and say that any state that amends its family law code to conform to X guidelines (in fact you would provide specific legislation so that lazy state senators could copy and paste directly), you can get a $15B block grant to do almost whatever you want with. How can the state divorce lawyer's bar association compete with that kind cash?

Of course you would make it seem like the grant was limited to protecting women and children, for example, but you would draft the legislation such that there was sufficient ambiguity for states to plausibly use the money for all sorts of other projects. In fact you could insert all kinds of Trojan horse funds, such as for lesbian and transgender counseling centers, to make it pass. Real catnip to left wing people. Are you against transgenders?? You bigot!

There's almost nothing that can't be bought with money in the US of A.

[Cheetah]

(07-29-2014 12:41 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

Regarding the divorce.

Everything about the Swedish state is to encourage families living together and make it economically disadvantageous to dissolve a marriage. It's set up that way. The downside is that many couples with children live together without getting married.

This is an impossibility to implement in the US however since tort lawyers (where I bundle divorce lawyers) drive much of the legislation around marriage. If the US wants to regain the nuclear family it has to throw out these parasites from what is essentially a moral issue. I'm sure Scorpion would have a field day on that topic.

I would have zero issue getting married under the current system.

It's the other way around. Couples in Sweden don't get married because there really aren't any economical incentives to do so. Sweden is known as a state of convenience when it comes to getting a divorce, which is very easy to get in Sweden. If both parties agree and no common children (under 16?) then immediate divorce is granted, if one disagrees or there is at least one common child it could take 6 months.

There's a completely different legal tradition in Sweden compared to the US. The latter is world famous for being contentious, the former is is known to the contrary.

[Cheetah]

(07-29-2014 09:08 AM)berserk Wrote:  

The interesting thing is that Sweden has a very vocal and political brand of feminism as I understand it. Constantly being talked about, you have political groups etc with a lot of influence, but the girls are actually very feminine, polite and sexy. Compare this to Denmark, where there is no political feminism or influential groups, but a lot of girls have internalized feminist ideas and dress and look the part. I don't know which is better. Denmark has much less Sovjet style propaganda and thought crimes, but dealing with the women sucks. Sweden has much better girls, but has an insane level of thought control.

Besides, I know it is 'in' and hipster for Americans to use Scandinavia as the poster child for socialism, but go and live there first before you claim it to be paradise. Try spending 12 hours in an emergency room or paying 180% taxes on your car.

Scandinavia is rich and functioning DESPITE socialism. Scandinavian countries made their wealth before the welfare states. Since implementing socialism, they've slid down all rankings of wealth and health care. The success of Scandinavia is because of a smart population with a high level of trust, or at least it used to be so. Low corruption etc.

I definately agree, well said. I assume that you compare Swedish girls with Danish (non of them can be compared with CIS girls in femininity).

It reminds me of a serious discussion a while ago in Denmark about implementing the possibility for 'judicial abortions'. For example, if the girl 'tricked' a man to get pregnant the man would be able to have a 'judicial abortion', basically having nothing to do with the child even economically. I don't think that it seems to happen anytime soon, but it was seriously discussed.

I am actually a little out of touch with Norway. How would you rate the femininity of the girls and how is the public healthcare, can you expect long waits in the emergency room for example?

[berserk]

Norway has a sizeable population of girls living outside big cities and a big part of norwegian culture is outdoors, so you get a lot of active, sweet, down to earth girls who aren't as infected by big city lifestyle, but you won't find as many hot girls in the classic sexy sense. Norwegian healthcare is better than danish, but probably worse than Sweden, Denmark is the worst. Cancer survival rates for stuff like prostata cancer are 20% lower in Denmark than Sweden for example. Private insurance is becoming mandatory in Denmark, now 800.000 people has private insurance, which is basically almost all private sector employees. Keep in mind this is after 8% healthcare tax. Perhaps the most expensive public healthcare sector pr. capita and people still need private insurance. That tells you everything you need to know about the 'scandinavian model'.

Yeah, I remember that discussion in Denmark. That would never even make the news in Sweden. I suppose it's because Denmark has this culture of free speech. It's pretty much the only value that is universally fought for these days.

[Vicious]

Cheetah, no.
People don't sit down and mull over the decision of marriage from an economical perspective here.

[Cheetah]

(07-29-2014 04:46 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

Cheetah, no.
People don't sit down and mull over the decision of marriage from an economical perspective here.

Where is 'here'?

[Wutang]

(07-29-2014 09:08 AM)berserk Wrote:  

Scandinavia is rich and functioning DESPITE socialism. Scandinavian countries made their wealth before the welfare states. Since implementing socialism, they've slid down all rankings of wealth and health care. The success of Scandinavia is because of a smart population with a high level of trust, or at least it used to be so. Low corruption etc.

That's a thought I've been mulling on in the past few weeks. Lots of progressives here in the US point to the Nordic countries as we should be working towards and the reasoning they typically use is that the Nordic countries have a high standard of living AND it also has massive amounts of feminism, welfare, and other things that make Republicans run shrieking from like vampires from garlic so therefore, if we implement these things then we can also have such a high standard of living. Or even there isn't a cause and effect relationship between these two things, surely it can't hurt to implement those things since it doesn't appear to be affecting the Nordic countries negatively.

My response to this is pretty much yours, I think the reason these countries can have all these perks is because they are already prosperous and wealthy and can therefore bear the costs of it. They are not wealthy and advanced BECAUSE of progressive social policies, rather the reason they can have these benefits is because they are already wealthy and socially advanced and so therefore can invest the massive amount of capital needed to keep the system in place. A lot of these American progressives get cause and effect mixed up. I was even as going as far as theorizing that the reason the Scandinavians were able to acquire the wealth and capital needed for their socialist paradise is because in generations past they had values that American progressives would deplore - the whole Protestant work ethic combined with dedication to family, community, and virtue. Ironically, this is most likely due to how influential Lutheranism was to Nordic society for centuries - ironic because of how secular these nations are in the present day and how hardcore atheist types constantly point to these societies as examples of what an atheist utopia would look like. I recall some Swedish academic talking about how Lutheranism in a secular form still dominates the way Nordics behave and act in their societies.

[Wutang]

(07-29-2014 05:17 AM)corners Wrote:  

These girls are actually Americans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Bikini_Team