[Katatonic]

France is probably the most responsible for WWII. The Treaty of Versailles placed an undeserved and unbearable burden upon the German people with France fighting every concession asked for by the other allied powers on Germany's behalf. There's also some interesting evidence that France knowingly undermined the Weimar Republic and secretly funded the rise of Hitler thinking he would be an ineffective leader.

France even kept that shit up 70 years later with threatening to veto the reunification of Germany unless they gave up their monetary sovereignty.

[eradicator]

Japan began world war 2 in 1931 by invading Manchuria.

Oh, you don't care about Asia?

[unbowed]

(06-02-2014 08:41 PM)eradicator Wrote:  

Japan began world war 2 in 1931 by invading Manchuria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_in...nal_impact

Very interesting; I didn't know Hitler and Mussolini were inspired by this event.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%8...nsequences

Also interesting how Tsuyoshi Hasegawa posits it was the Russian invasion of Manchuria that caused Japan to surrender; not the atomic bombs.

So much more to read now...

[Jukes]

^ I agree. Never knew Mother Russia fought Japan in WW2

[Feisbook Control]

(06-02-2014 09:16 PM)unbowed Wrote:  

(06-02-2014 08:41 PM)eradicator Wrote:  

Japan began world war 2 in 1931 by invading Manchuria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_in...nal_impact

Very interesting; I didn't know Hitler and Mussolini were inspired by this event.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%8...nsequences

Also interesting how Tsuyoshi Hasegawa posits it was the Russian invasion of Manchuria that caused Japan to surrender; not the atomic bombs.

So much more to read now...

Yes, the Western allies and Japanese leadership were concerned not only about the Soviet Union invading the home islands of Japan (I guess Hokkaido and northern Honshu), but about a communist revolution amongst the Japanese population, who were extremely impoverished by the end of the war. Japan would have ended up divided a la Germany or Korea.

As for the Allies and the Holocaust, Western nations didn't really care about the Jews. They knew what was going on and still refused to help, despite being offered the chance before the war at the Evian Conference. Hitler was actually willing to let the Jews leave Germany, but other Western nations refused or took minimal numbers of refugees.

[Truth Teller]

(06-02-2014 11:31 PM)Feisbook Control Wrote:  

Yes, the Western allies and Japanese leadership were concerned not only about the Soviet Union invading the home islands of Japan (I guess Hokkaido and northern Honshu), but about a communist revolution amongst the Japanese population, who were extremely impoverished by the end of the war. Japan would have ended up divided a la Germany or Korea.

As for the Allies and the Holocaust, Western nations didn't really care about the Jews. They knew what was going on and still refused to help, despite being offered the chance before the war at the Evian Conference. Hitler was actually willing to let the Jews leave Germany, but other Western nations refused or took minimal numbers of refugees.

Yeah, the Allies really didn't give a damn about the Jews. Adolf Eichmann was willing to release about a million Jews in return for trucks, but the Allies saw it as an attempt to divide the Western Allies from the Soviets. Also, refer to the S.S. St. Louis incident. Interestingly, there were elements in the US who would've let the Jews settle in Alaska (read the Ickes Plan).

My opinion is that the Japanese were going to be forced to surrender by the end of 1946/beginning of 1947. The submarine blockade completely destroyed their merchant and fishing fleet. Much like the UK, the Japanese depended on the seas, and the blockade was literally starving them out.

[Chaos]

One thing that interest me is that if there is any group of Germans who are angry today of the post WW2 borders? I mean Germany lost a lot of territory to Poland which never been
Polish. Like Breslau (Wroclaw) for example. I have a hard time to believe all Germans accepts this.

I like Germans, Germany and their history and I have met a lot of Germans but I very very rarely meet any Germans who are interested of discussing these things. They step out of the discussion as fast as they can. I'm curious to know how history is teached in German schools.
Sometimes it's forgotten that Germany and a lot of Germans were victims of the war also.

It reminds me of trying to discuss Chinese politics with a Chinese person. Impossible.

[Virtus]

Germans are conditioned to avoid that topic. everyone there has a grandpa who's killed people. they are ashamed.

[Chaos]

^ And? That goes for most European countries during WW2.
Germany is not unique in this matter.

[Que enspastic]

Hitler was in an unenviable position with Soviet Union in East. Germany didn't have oil. A Soviet takeover of Romanian oil fields would starve Wehrmarcht and Luftwaffe ability to fuel tanks and bombers. I think the only real option open to Germany post-Battle of Britain was to seize Suez Canal and close the Mediterranean (how without Spanish support?) and thereby secure resources needed to safeguard against possible loss of Romania.

I don't think Germany could have ever defeated the Soviets, they had to guard against them instead

[Mage]

(06-03-2014 01:37 AM)Chaos Wrote:  

^ And? That goes for most European countries during WW2.
Germany is not unique in this matter.

Germany is unique because they lost.

Therefore they take shame from the fact that their grandfathers killed people.

Russians on the other hand won.

Therefore they brag about it.

The loser always pays - Germany pays by being ashamed of it's national pride and by generally being emasculated and forced to open to all liberalisms and immigration.

Russians and Americans won and therefore can be unashamedly nationalistic and chauvinistic.

[Que enspastic]

Delete

[N°6]

(06-02-2014 08:10 PM)Katatonic Wrote:  

France is probably the most responsible for WWII. The Treaty of Versailles placed an undeserved and unbearable burden upon the German people with France fighting every concession asked for by the other allied powers on Germany's behalf. There's also some interesting evidence that France knowingly undermined the Weimar Republic and secretly funded the rise of Hitler thinking he would be an ineffective leader.

France even kept that shit up 70 years later with threatening to veto the reunification of Germany unless they gave up their monetary sovereignty.

In defence of France...

Since the Franco-Prussian war and the subsequent unification of the German states, continental European power has been based in Berlin. Since the French Revolution, French power had been in decline with the exception of the Napoléonic era after which, the defeated France came under British influence.

Therefore after WW1, the French knew perfectly well that the only reason why Germany did not win was because of an alliance with its traditional foe and with the USA which has a constitution which forbids it from getting embroiled into European affairs.

France knew that the German and Austrian-Hungarian armies were not defeated and after the fall of Imperial Russia had caused British and French lines to collapse and that the Germans, Austrians and Hungarians would be capable to do so again without the US Army.

This and because around 11 French departments had been completely destroyed during the war, meant that the French needed to turn an armistice with the Central Powers into a political victory.

[N°6]

(06-03-2014 12:00 AM)Chaos Wrote:  

One thing that interest me is that if there is any group of Germans who are angry today of the post WW2 borders? I mean Germany lost a lot of territory to Poland which never been
Polish. Like Breslau (Wroclaw) for example. I have a hard time to believe all Germans accepts this.

I like Germans, Germany and their history and I have met a lot of Germans but I very very rarely meet any Germans who are interested of discussing these things. They step out of the discussion as fast as they can. I'm curious to know how history is teached in German schools.
Sometimes it's forgotten that Germany and a lot of Germans were victims of the war also.

It reminds me of trying to discuss Chinese politics with a Chinese person. Impossible.

I know one German who was brought up in the DDR and therefore under Communist conditions who argues that legally, the German Reich is 1939 borders. He also argues that there hasn't been a peace treaty between the Allies and Germany.

What we in the UK and US fail to grasp however is that German TV programming and the German education syllabus need to be cleared by Washington DC - so it is little wonder that Germans are some of the most socially liberal, self-hating and guilt-ridden people in earth.

He mentioned that Germany and Japan are still classified as enemies of the United Nations. This makes me wonder if there was something greater behind WW2 than simply the desire 'to stop a madman taking over the world'.

Quote:

Chapter VIII of the United Nations Charter

Chapter VIII of the United Nations Charter deals with regional arrangements. It authorizes regional organizations (such as NATO) and even requires attempts to resolve disputes through such agencies (if available) prior to intervention by the UN Security Council. However, Article 53 provides that "no enforcement action shall be taken under regional arrangements or by regional agencies without the authorization of the Security Council."

Chapter VIII makes reference to enemy states, which were powers such as Japan and Germany that remained enemies of the UN signatories at the time of the promulgation of the UN Charter (in the closing months of World War II in mid-1945). There have been proposals to remove these references, but none have come to fruition. Chapter VIII is analogous to Article 21 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, which provides, "Nothing in this Covenant shall be deemed to affect the validity of international engagements, such as treaties of arbitration or regional understandings like the Monroe doctrine, for securing the maintenance of peace."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapter_VII...ns_Charter

[Que enspastic]

Delete

[cardguy]

@No6 - how does the US have control over German TV and education syllabuses.

Do you have a source for that? It sounds interesting.

Also - Germany now run Europe - so they ultimately have done quite well since WWII.

[No Habit]

Quote:

One thing that interest me is that if there is any group of Germans who are angry today of the post WW2 borders? I mean Germany lost a lot of territory to Poland which never been
Polish. Like Breslau (Wroclaw) for example. I have a hard time to believe all
Germans accepts this.

I like Germans, Germany and their history and I have met a lot of Germans but I very very rarely meet any Germans who are interested of discussing these things. They step out of the discussion as fast as they can. I'm curious to know how history is teached in German schools.
Sometimes it's forgotten that Germany and a lot of Germans were victims of the war also.

Never met anyone who complained about this.

Quote:

Germans are conditioned to avoid that topic.

I don't know if it's conditioning. We have to watch all kinds of movies and visit a former deathcamp during our education. Even this thread makes me cringe a bit.

[Chaos]

It's interesting how countries choose to educate children in schools about war history.
It varies a lot.

Especially in Russia, Japan, Korea and obviously Germany and US also.

Even here in little Finland people see themselves as victims of WW2 and educating people to believe that USSR were the only aggressors. In the Winter War in 1939-1940 it's true.

But not in the Continuation War. It's rarely mentioned that Finland were indeed brothers in arms with Germany and attacked USSR together in the summer of 1941. ( Look the video of the conversation between Hitler and Marshalk Mannerheim earlier in the thread. Finnish Army went deep into Russian Karelia and occupied areas for three years that never been Finnish. They made concentration camps and divided people into Finnish/Karelian people and Russians. The official explanation is that Finland only wanted to take back areas which were lost in 1940, but Finnish Army went far beyond 1940 borders.

This is an example of what schools never learn out.

I guess every country want to picture themselves as the "good guys"

[N°6]

(06-04-2014 02:25 AM)Chaos Wrote:  

It's interesting how countries choose to educate children in schools about war history.
It varies a lot.

Especially in Russia, Japan, Korea and obviously Germany and US also.

Even here in little Finland people see themselves as victims of WW2 and educating people to believe that USSR were the only aggressors. In the Winter War in 1939-1940 it's true.

But not in the Continuation War. It's rarely mentioned that Finland were indeed brothers in arms with Germany and attacked USSR together in the summer of 1941. ( Look the video of the conversation between Hitler and Marshalk Mannerheim earlier in the thread. Finnish Army went deep into Russian Karelia and occupied areas for three years that never been Finnish. They made concentration camps and divided people into Finnish/Karelian people and Russians. The official explanation is that Finland only wanted to take back areas which were lost in 1940, but Finnish Army went far beyond 1940 borders.

This is an example of what schools never learn out.

I guess every country want to picture themselves as the "good guys"

With the USSR's attack on Finland, its conquest of the Baltic States, its annexation of a Romanian oil province, its manipulation of Yugoslav politics and the Communist revolutions inside Germany and Romania, I don't think that it was unreasonable of the Germans to feel threatened.

They'd more reason to be fearful of the USSR than Blair and Bush had of Iraq and its mythical weapons of mass destruction but the difference is that they were not defeated and the US and UK have tremendous influence over the UN.

However, it is a mystery as to why the Soviet-German pact was broken as it seems clear to me that basic American and British strategy post-Bismark's unification of Germany is to stop Russia and Germany from forming an alliance.

[N°6]

(06-03-2014 12:43 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

@No6 - how does the US have control over German TV and education syllabuses.

Do you have a source for that? It sounds interesting.

Also - Germany now run Europe - so they ultimately have done quite well since WWII.

It was my German friend who mentioned this. He also said that Germany is still considered an enemy state of the UN (remember that its Western war was against the League of Nations which was born in Versailles) and that no peace treaty was made with the Allies.

I recently read in a book about Washington DC controlling German TV's content and that this arrangement would continue until the end of this century. I will find this book to check its references.

[cardguy]

I would love to see a reference for the book! :-)

Sound like the sort of book I will check out.

[Truth Teller]

(06-04-2014 04:16 AM)N°6 Wrote:  

(06-03-2014 12:43 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

@No6 - how does the US have control over German TV and education syllabuses.

Do you have a source for that? It sounds interesting.

Also - Germany now run Europe - so they ultimately have done quite well since WWII.

It was my German friend who mentioned this. He also said that Germany is still considered an enemy state of the UN (remember that its Western war was against the League of Nations which was born in Versailles) and that no peace treaty was made with the Allies.

I recently read in a book about Washington DC controlling German TV's content and that this arrangement would continue until the end of this century. I will find this book to check its references.

The League of Nations ceased to be a functioning organization in 1936. While several of the countries involved in World War II were members of the League, keep in mind that the United States never technically joined the League of Nations.