[Spikeball]

I recently have come to the decision to get a vasectomy at 24 and was reading related articles on wikipedia whenI came upon something rather interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_h...n_movement

Now I have great respect for humanity as a whole, I think the human condition is a beautiful thing and I'm rather optimistic about our species as a whole. I long for our species to voyage into the cosmos, etc...

However I did find the groups position and points logical and having come to the just-about permanent decision to have no descendants it peaked my interest.

I looked up some interviews with the founder and he was hilariously cheery considering his position:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm1QojjwGdo


Hope this an interesting topic for discussion.

[Col. Tigh]

Here's the rub: only the human species is capable of understanding, appreciating, and preserving the beauty of the universe. As a thought experiment, let's assume the human race went extinct--then, who or what exists to take in the wonderment of existence? Other than sentient beings (of which human beings are the only confirmed members), might as well be only rocks and trees out there to enjoy the cosmos.

[EisenBarde]

So if I tell greenies to go kill themselves, I'm doing Gaia's work?

[Mage]

I predict that his movement will go extinct long before humanity does.

[Big Country]

Yeah, it seems strange to purposely kill ourselves off to save the planet. The question I have is does this mean that this movement believes that the earth itself is more important than human life? Further, if they were not human and were another species they would not have any consideration of this. So we are the only species even able to consider our impact on the world, but we should voluntarily go extinct to save the planet.

My point is, if that was the goal, it would take a lot longer for us to die off under this model versus our current model. If I was a voluntary extinctionist(?) why not encourage us to completely destroy the world by increasing consumption and population, and then let it heal itself as it does through tectonic and other mechanisms? Much quicker solution.

[The Beast1]

Why are you deciding to get a vasectomy?

Do you not see yourself as evolutionarily fit? Why do you not want to pass your genes (and wisdom) onto another generation?

I ask because such a thing makes no sense to me. If I didn't want kids, i'd be doing fuck all with my life instead of the nest egg building i'm doing now.

[Spikeball]

(05-27-2014 07:58 AM)frenchie Wrote:  

Why are you deciding to get a vasectomy?

Do you not see yourself as evolutionarily fit? Why do you not want to pass your genes (and wisdom) onto another generation?

I ask because such a thing makes no sense to me. If I didn't want kids, i'd be doing fuck all with my life instead of the nest egg building i'm doing now.

My brothers and sisters can have children if they please. It's not like my genes will be lost forever (a small part of mine will be lost I suppose, but children aren't exact replicas of ourselves either)but in the long run I feel like spreading my genes is irrelevant, what claim would I have to my 10th generation grandson when he has .05% of my genetic make-up, that I wouldn't be able to make with my brothers 8th or 9th generation grandson.

Besides I do not want children right now and hate condoms so taking full control of my reproduction is a natural thing to do. I realize not wanting children right now is a pretty normal at this point in my life and might change in the future but when I'm at a stage that I want children that might change in the future as well.

Both a vasectomy and having a kid are irreversible and impactful life decisions but having a child far outweights a vasectomy in it's lifechanging nature and in the shackles it can impose on a man.
It seems weird to think I am maximizing my freedom by taking an option off the table but if that option would permanently change my life in almost every facet, it makes some sense to me.

Also, does wanting children at any point make it RIGHT to have children? I'm not sure it does. Just look at all the woefully unprepared parents we have right now, just wanting a kid should not be enough to have children IMHO.

Finally, I'm sure I can lead a happy life living without children (I could be a good uncle, etc...)

These are my reasons.

P.S. You can always spread wisdom to people who are not your direct descendants.

[FilipSRB]

I'm of the thought that the world around us has no intrinsic value, it is not good or evil, and it can't be beautiful or ugly and not worth saving without somebody (us) to observe it and make a distinction. Without us to, this is just a oxygen silicone rock circling around a huge nuclear reactor. The cosmos without a sentient life is... well I don't know what, useless at least.

[Jackreacher]

Although Knight sees abstinence from reproduction as an altruistic choice it is a choice most humans are currently very unlikely to make despite being a very sensible thing to do. His premise is somewhat flawed, as he says the life on earth is more valuable then the human species to which I would have to ask according to who exactly? Value is a man made concept no more actual then knight's own beliefs on what is more valuable then anything else. Zero population growth(ZPG) is preferable to total extinction. Reproduction is already slowing down in many countries for various reasons so I think we'll get there.

[Fortis]

Who is to say this this is actually worth finding beautiful? As you said, we're the only ones who can see the beauty. Perhaps we're the fucked up ones.

[runsonmagic]

Voluntary Human Extinction Movement = people who make major life decisions based on weird movements they've only read about on the internet stop reproducing.

So, good thing.

[The Beast1]

(05-27-2014 09:38 AM)Spikeball Wrote:  

(05-27-2014 07:58 AM)frenchie Wrote:  

Why are you deciding to get a vasectomy?

Do you not see yourself as evolutionarily fit? Why do you not want to pass your genes (and wisdom) onto another generation?

I ask because such a thing makes no sense to me. If I didn't want kids, i'd be doing fuck all with my life instead of the nest egg building i'm doing now.

My brothers and sisters can have children if they please. It's not like my genes will be lost forever (a small part of mine will be lost I suppose, but children aren't exact replicas of ourselves either)but in the long run I feel like spreading my genes is irrelevant, what claim would I have to my 10th generation grandson when he has .05% of my genetic make-up, that I wouldn't be able to make with my brothers 8th or 9th generation grandson.

Besides I do not want children right now and hate condoms so taking full control of my reproduction is a natural thing to do. I realize not wanting children right now is a pretty normal at this point in my life and might change in the future but when I'm at a stage that I want children that might change in the future as well.

Both a vasectomy and having a kid are irreversible and impactful life decisions but having a child far outweights a vasectomy in it's lifechanging nature and in the shackles it can impose on a man.
It seems weird to think I am maximizing my freedom by taking an option off the table but if that option would permanently change my life in almost every facet, it makes some sense to me.

Also, does wanting children at any point make it RIGHT to have children? I'm not sure it does. Just look at all the woefully unprepared parents we have right now, just wanting a kid should not be enough to have children IMHO.

Finally, I'm sure I can lead a happy life living without children (I could be a good uncle, etc...)

These are my reasons.

P.S. You can always spread wisdom to people who are not your direct descendants.

Between your siblings and yourself, there is only a 50% similarity between yourself and them. Any genetic changes you have will be completely lost.

As for spreading wisdom indirectly, it is a pretty poor way of doing so. The anecdotal evidence I have being my mother's second boyfriend tries to do the same to me and my siblings and we all look at him and roll our eyes. He may be a wise sage, but he's not my father and we all rarely listen to him. Uncles and interlopers tend to make poor patriarchs.

Finally, what about namesake and aires? For me, the urge to have a family is driven in part by a unique namesake that carries a lot of weight in certain circles as well as the fortunes from that endeavor. Do you not see any value in continuing your family name or having someone to pass it onto if you happen to make it big?

Normally the people I see who say they don't want children tend to be "dead" on the inside for lack of a better word. They view themselves as potentially poor parents when the reality is more related to poor self esteem. Do you view yourself as a potentially bad parent?

If this comes off as douchy, pardon that. My brother says the same things and it complete baffles me.

[thebassist]

(05-27-2014 11:41 AM)frenchie Wrote:  

If this comes off as douchy, pardon that.

It's kind of hard to avoid coming off like that in discussions like these.

My personal take on the issue is that it would be a waste of good genetic material if I were to not have children.

If I look at things objectively, I consider myself reasonably intelligent, decent-looking, with no psychological issues or hereditary diseases (that I know of, inshallah), and possessing a good head on my shoulders.

To decide to put all this to waste for some meaningless (by which I mean ultimately ineffective) cause like this would truly be a pity, especially when you consider the fact that your existence can be traced back through a line of direct ancestors spanning billions of years. If that's not amazing to think about, then I don't know what is.

When discussing topics like this, you can often come dangerously close to ethically questionable topics, but all I ask you to simply look around you, and see who are the people who are having the most children in our society, and then take a look at yourself. Do you really want to deprive the world of your best qualities?

I didn't mean to sound dramatic in writing this up, but it just happened to come out this way

[Surreyman]

Only women believe that the earth would be better without humans.

What a disgusting self-hater you must be to have such a philosophy.

The dead know one thing: It is better to be alive.

[The Beast1]

(05-27-2014 01:48 PM)thebassist Wrote:  

(05-27-2014 11:41 AM)frenchie Wrote:  

If this comes off as douchy, pardon that.

It's kind of hard to avoid coming off like that in discussions like these.

My personal take on the issue is that it would be a waste of good genetic material if I were to not have children.

If I look at things objectively, I consider myself reasonably intelligent, decent-looking, with no psychological issues or hereditary diseases (that I know of, inshallah), and possessing a good head on my shoulders.

To decide to put all this to waste for some meaningless (by which I mean ultimately ineffective) cause like this would truly be a pity, especially when you consider the fact that your existence can be traced back through a line of direct ancestors spanning billions of years. If that's not amazing to think about, then I don't know what is.

When discussing topics like this, you can often come dangerously close to ethically questionable topics, but all I ask you to simply look around you, and see who are the people who are having the most children in our society, and then take a look at yourself. Do you really want to deprive the world of your best qualities?

I didn't mean to sound dramatic in writing this up, but it just happened to come out this way

Much more eloquently put than me. Basically, what he said!

[Wahawahwah]

Dude you're 24.

Assuming you'll live till 70... What if you change your decision about having children later on in life?

Use contraception for now.
Keep your options open.

You won't be able to go back after a vasectomy.

[TheFinalEpic]

Every girl I run into is on the pill or has an IUD, there's really no need to shoot yourself in the foot and get a vasectomy so early in life.

[Spikeball]

Quote:

Between your siblings and yourself, there is only a 50% similarity between yourself and them. Any genetic changes you have will be completely lost.

True. However, if you count all of my siblings (I have 3) together they carry an aggregate of my genes higher than 50%. Besides there's nothing inherently good about spreading your genes. It's just our programming being a higher sentient being than bacteria with self-awareness I recognize that my value as an individual has nothing to do with how successful I am at reproduction.

Quote:

As for spreading wisdom indirectly, it is a pretty poor way of doing so. The anecdotal evidence I have being my mother's second boyfriend tries to do the sasme to me and my siblings and we all look at him and roll our eyes. He may be a wise sage, but he's not my father and we all rarely listen to him. Uncles and interlopers tend to make poor patriarchs.

That's a nice anecdote but many men have taught you much (otherwise what would you be doing in this forum for instance). If you don't listen to your stepfather's sage advice that might be because of your own problems with him, besides like many fathers can attest being a dad doesn't mean your kid will listen to you.

Quote:

Finally, what about namesake and aires? For me, the urge to have a family is driven in part by a unique namesake that carries a lot of weight in certain circles as well as the fortunes from that endeavor. Do you not see any value in continuing your family name or having someone to pass it onto if you happen to make it big?

There are plenty of people who left gigantic legacies despite having no children. Sir Isaac Newton for instance, but the reality is that most of us 7 billion people won't be remembered by anyone living 100 years after our deaths.

I don't look down on legacy and I admire the clans that have "made" it big but I don't care much about starting my own.

Quote:

Normally the people I see who say they don't want children tend to be "dead" on the inside for lack of a better word. They view themselves as potentially poor parents when the reality is more related to poor self esteem. Do you view yourself as a potentially bad parent?

Recently a cousin just had twin baby girls. We have a big family so everyone went to visit her at the hospital while she stayed there and I was irrationaly happy for her and her husband. They're both wonderful people and their babies embody such hope for the future! It's beautiful!

I'm not religious but I love my fellow men or rather the idea of humanity marching on to our infinitely vast future. If you take us as a whole or individual contributions mean very little...

I wouldn't describe me as dead inside.

[The Beast1]

More power to you bro, but I doubt you'll get many supporters on this forum. 24 is way too young to decide something like this.

For the record, I didn't want kids at all when I was a teenager. If they allowed me to get the snip i would have been pissed if I made such a permanent decision then.