[Wadsworth]

Before I begin, let me clarify a few things.

1) I'm not talking about the obvious toxicity. I'm not talking about dudes who think the Jews are responsible for feminism, or people that race bait at every turn.

2) I'm glad the manosphere exists. At this point I do believe feminism can legitimately be considered a culturally destructive force, and our society desperately needs a counterbalance.

3) The femosphere is very toxic itself, and my intention isn't to defend any of it by writing this.

4) Despite the fact that the manosphere can be a toxic place, it's still worth being a part of.

So, why can the manosphere become a toxic place for reasonable guys?

The culture of the manosphere embodies a very subtle dismissal of choice, and it's one that the type of guy the manosphere attracts is already highly susceptible to.

Most guys that find themselves in the manosphere are quite intelligent, and I mean that in the purest sense of the word. The IQ of the manosphere is almost certainly significantly higher than the average IQ in society. The manosphere inherently attracts guys who have highly developed faculties for reason, critical analysis, and clarity of expression. There have been a number of devastating takedowns of feminist dogma published among the manosphere's blogs that demonstrate keen ability in these areas.

So the fact that guys are drawn together by their shared distaste for dogma means that many manosphere readers will be highly analytic and rationally-minded individuals.

And of course you have feminists on the other side continually espousing some of the most comically ludicrous ideas in history, many of whom are hopelessly trapped by a dogmatic, ideological view of the world; gasoline on the fire for many analytic types.

A back and forth begins. We question their underlying assumptions about the world, and they respond by using those very assumptions we're questioning to tell us that we're wrong. You see it on RoK's message board all the time.

And somewhere along the way, we stop choosing to respond, and we increasingly become compelled to respond. We value our analysis and reason too highly to allow people to attempt to argue that fire isn't hot. We'll start responding to anything; to everything. The compulsion to fight arises. People start writing responses to feminist ideas in mainstream publications and before long stop asking themselves why on earth they're even doing it.

How many people in the manosphere do you think are legitimately making a choice to fight against the status quo or to fight against feminist dogma, whatever their reasons might be?

Now really stop to think about that question for a moment. Is anyone here actually making a choice? Or have you been sucked into a culture of mechanistic reasoning and analysis that simply cannot accept the glaring hypocrisy of feminists and their ideas, and fighting becomes a compulsion?

Yes, the feminists are hypocritical. Yes, they're trapped on hamster wheels of dogma and rationalization.

Does it follow that you must fight?

The manosphere's ability to reason and analyze is certainly to its credit. But in a way it's also the source of its toxicity. It makes fighting seem like a given, when it isn't.

If you can walk away from the manosphere, and never look back; if you have it within you to forget about all this stuff, then you are capable of nevertheless choosing to fight (for whatever reason(s) you choose).

But if you don't have it within you to do either of those things, then you aren't likely making a choice, you're simply trapped in a compulsion to respond and to fight, and the fact that yours are superior faculties for analysis and reason isn't your saving grace, it's exactly what is preventing you from seeing that you're trapped.

[icefire57]

Feminists - chicks who are not getting good dick and are angry about it. Why attack them? Living a life that satisfies you as a man is the only life you should be living. Hating on feminists (or any group for that matter) only brings toxicity into your own life and world.
Just my personal feelings and 2 cents on the issue.

[Roosh]

While I've been the first to criticize the manosphere heavily, this is pure gibberish. And your headline doesn't match at all your post (I retitled it).

[TheWastelander]

You're taking the internet way too seriously.

[Big Country]

This is just an indication of choosing to focus on the wrong things initially. You can both reject and ignore anything that you don't like just as you can reject and argue. I guess your point is that those who argue become habituated to the argument. My question is, so what?

Some people absolutely love nothing more than going back and forth, which is a paralyzing catharsis. You enjoy your own view point so much that you don't even care whether the other person begins to understand you, you just enjoy laying it all out, time and time again.

Personally, I love reading those types of replies. For one it shows that people are simply ridiculous. It also shows that regardless of how much information or facts are presented, some people will steadfastly refuse to acknowledge it.

Some aspects of feminism are quite good, some are not. Some aspects of game culture are quite good, some are not. Depending on where you find yourself on that arbitrary spectrum will define how you view things.

I'm not sure what the point of this was. Do you want guys to stop arguing against feminism in a knee-jerk fashion? That won't ever happen. Guys, believe it or not, can be just as dumb, if not more, than a feminist. Shocking, I know.

[The Beast1]

What's the TL,DR version? ;P

[Sp5]

(05-22-2014 07:06 AM)frenchie Wrote:  

What's the TL,DR version? ;P

There is no reason to get riled up and answer every piece of feminist kookiness.

[Onto]

I'm not sure what aspects of Manoshpere the OP is talking about. Some clear cut examples are needed.

That said, I think those that believe the Manoshpere is too extreme, etc. may have never been divorced, had a child, worked for women, etc.

But a man doesn't even need to go through all of that to see. Just rent some movies from the 40's through today and look at the change in how men, women and culture are portrayed. If this doesn't hit a person like a brick then I guess nothing really will, except living in EE, SEA or Latin America (from what I hear).

We have lots of types on this forum. Players, MGTOW's, Husband's, Youngsters and all the shades of grey in between.

To each their own, but the one thing I hope unites us here, is we have an interest in protecting our gender and recognize it's under attack in a very real way that may seem workable now, but could become much, much worse for us as time goes on.

[Wadsworth]

(05-22-2014 10:43 AM)Onto Wrote:  

I'm not sure what aspects of Manoshpere the OP is talking about. Some clear cut examples are needed.

That said, I think those that believe the Manoshpere is too extreme, etc. may have never been divorced, had a child, worked for women, etc.

But a man doesn't even need to go through all of that to see. Just rent some movies from the 40's through today and look at the change in how men, women and culture are portrayed. If this doesn't hit a person like a brick then I guess nothing really will, except living in EE, SEA or Latin America (from what I hear).

To each their own, but the one thing I hope unites us here, is we have an interest in protecting our gender and recognize it's under attack in a very real way that may seem workable now, but could become much, much worse for us as time goes on.

Thanks for your thoughts guys.

So Onto, your post sorta sums up what I'm talking about. You're being analytic and rational, pointing out X, Y, Z, and saying stuff like "it should hit you like a brick wall," or "how can it possibly be too extreme?"

In other words, you're asking how we can ignore the situation when X, Y, and Z? That it naturally follows to struggle against the situation that confronts us.

Mauds has pointed out that life is much like this, except my point is that the manosphere makes for a uniquely different experience.

The manosphere is generally quite correct about X, Y, and Z being a problem, and does a good job outlining it rationally and logically. And the responses we get are unlike anything else you'll find in society. The most logical response we'll get is that it's patriarchy that causes X, Y, and Z, and that we should therefore direct our anger against the patriarchy.

It descends from there. For raising the points that get raised in the manosphere, even what should be completely uncontentious points, you're likely to get called a misogynist, a rape apologist, a loser, etc. etc. etc. They claim they're oppressed and here we are using pen names for obvious reasons. On top of that you have professional victims claiming we're dangerous and need to be stopped, feminists pulling fire alarms and yelling on the streets, and guys like Manboobz comment mining and devoting his entire existence to portraying us in the worst possible light.

If you're like me, the whole thing ties your mind in a knot. How can people be so completely irrational? How can they not see that X, Y, and Z are reasonable and indeed self-evident points if equality is to be the goal?

And the fact that you so value reason and analysis makes it worse, because it makes it harder to let go. After all, you're not wrong, are you? You're right, your analysis is right, and they haven't answered your argument in a remotely satisfactory way. You become compelled to respond, compelled to make another point. How can you let their irrationality stand? The entire manosphere is filled with highly intelligent guys making great points and good responses like this.

And I sometimes wonder how many of them are trapped in the back-and-forth. How many could walk away and give it up? I would imagine that having a major manosphere blog and being portrayed as a misogynist and a rape apologist and all the rest of it for unapologetically expressing your ideas would be difficult to ignore.

I think the fact that we have a culture of guys so devoted to our analysis is what traps us in a struggle we may not have wanted in our lives in the first place.

[The Beast1]

(05-22-2014 08:44 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 07:06 AM)frenchie Wrote:  

What's the TL,DR version? ;P

There is no reason to get riled up and answer every piece of feminist kookiness.

I had this balls overly aggressive woman try to start something with me. I don't remember what she said, but I looked at her, blinked and said back:

No.

And walked away. She was distraught.

I guess maybe we're reaching the turning point here in the manosphere where we stop complaining and just act. After reading zerohedge and the like, the decline and societal rot is about to become necrotic and fall off.

[Onto]

(05-22-2014 12:48 PM)Wadsworth Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 10:43 AM)Onto Wrote:  

I'm not sure what aspects of Manoshpere the OP is talking about. Some clear cut examples are needed.

That said, I think those that believe the Manoshpere is too extreme, etc. may have never been divorced, had a child, worked for women, etc.

But a man doesn't even need to go through all of that to see. Just rent some movies from the 40's through today and look at the change in how men, women and culture are portrayed. If this doesn't hit a person like a brick then I guess nothing really will, except living in EE, SEA or Latin America (from what I hear).

To each their own, but the one thing I hope unites us here, is we have an interest in protecting our gender and recognize it's under attack in a very real way that may seem workable now, but could become much, much worse for us as time goes on.

Thanks for your thoughts guys.

So Onto, your post sorta sums up what I'm talking about. You're being analytic and rational, pointing out X, Y, Z, and saying stuff like "it should hit you like a brick wall," or "how can it possibly be too extreme?"

In other words, you're asking how we can ignore the situation when X, Y, and Z? That it naturally follows to struggle against the situation that confronts us.

Mauds has pointed out that life is much like this, except my point is that the manosphere makes for a uniquely different experience.

The manosphere is generally quite correct about X, Y, and Z being a problem, and does a good job outlining it rationally and logically. And the responses we get are unlike anything else you'll find in society. The most logical response we'll get is that it's patriarchy that causes X, Y, and Z, and that we should therefore direct our anger against the patriarchy.

It descends from there. For raising the points that get raised in the manosphere, even what should be completely uncontentious points, you're likely to get called a misogynist, a rape apologist, a loser, etc. etc. etc. They claim they're oppressed and here we are using pen names for obvious reasons. On top of that you have professional victims claiming we're dangerous and need to be stopped, feminists pulling fire alarms and yelling on the streets, and guys like Manboobz comment mining and devoting his entire existence to portraying us in the worst possible light.

If you're like me, the whole thing ties your mind in a knot. How can people be so completely irrational? How can they not see that X, Y, and Z are reasonable and indeed self-evident points if equality is to be the goal?

And the fact that you so value reason and analysis makes it worse, because it makes it harder to let go. After all, you're not wrong, are you? You're right, your analysis is right, and they haven't answered your argument in a remotely satisfactory way. You become compelled to respond, compelled to make another point. How can you let their irrationality stand? The entire manosphere is filled with highly intelligent guys making great points and good responses like this.

And I sometimes wonder how many of them are trapped in the back-and-forth. How many could walk away and give it up? I would imagine that having a major manosphere blog and being portrayed as a misogynist and a rape apologist and all the rest of it for unapologetically expressing your ideas would be difficult to ignore.

I think the fact that we have a culture of guys so devoted to our analysis is what traps us in a struggle we may not have wanted in our lives in the first place.

Let me address those items in bold.

"how can it possibly be too extreme?"

I don't think I said this.


The most logical response we'll get is that it's patriarchy that causes X, Y, and Z, and that we should therefore direct our anger against the patriarchy.

I don't agree with this. I don't believe patriarchy is the cause for the rise of feminism and the loss of masculinity in men. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying here? Women will definately blame partriarchy because they want it to be a matriarchy. Is that what you meant?

There's a concept of the Zietgeist, "the spirit of the times", and people are under the sway of it. My Mother was abused as a child so that messed her up for sure, but besides that she was born in a time of rising anger towards the Father, towards the Masculine. This anger was not coming from just women, but from men too!!

How many songs or TV shows today involve a story with the Son angry with his Father, showing him no respect. "Indaina Jones and the Crystal Skull". "The last Bruce Willis Die Hard movie" and countless others.

The masculine has fallen on hard times, and there are those that are aware of this and those that are not.

What to do with this awarness?

Roosh, Tuth, and the rest of ROK writers are doing what they know how. Frenchie did what he knew how, and I think his move was a very good one.

Some may try to stay and argue points at the dinner table full of feminists, betas, and white knights. That's a vaild way to handle it also, and I've done that too many times. I don't think it's worth it anymore to do that.

Some men decide to go full MGTOW or move overseas to another country.

I understand your frustration and maybe you're wondering is the manoshpere part of the zeitgiest just as feminism is? I would say yes, of course!

I started to become "red-pill", as it's called, about 15 years ago, and I only recently discovered 6 months ago what MGTOW even meant or that there was a manoshpere at all. There are tons of guys out there that took their pill long before me. The manoshpere has been builiding for years and we didn't even realize it, just like feminism built for years.

The internet can make this awareness happen much faster now, then before I think.

I don't know if this helps your dillema at all. It seems like a dillema on how to act after becoming aware of what's going on. Do you fight and argue with people? Do you show your disapproval and walk away? Do you move to another country? Or stay and become a Monk? Or just decide to bang girls, but never allow yourself to love deeply to the point of vulnerability?

I'm still figuring it out myself.

[The Lizard of Oz]

I think it's worth asking and answering a very simple question:

Why are we here? What's the point?

To me, the answer is very clear.

We are not here to convert the feminists -- that won't happen anyway.

We are not even here to convert the society at large -- that probably won't happen in the near term, and in the longer term the facts of life good and ill are likely to play a greater role in changing society than any arguments we can come up with.

We are here to help men who want to be helped to lead better and more enjoyable lives.

That is the point for me and I believe for many many other guys who are here. There are many men out there who feel that they can live better, freer, more enjoyable and more satisfying lives than what current conventional thinking (aka "blue pill") has in mind for them. All our arguments, tips, stories, lifestyle advice and so on -- are for these men.

And there is great value in going over certain ideas, arguments, examples over and over and over again -- because each one might be the one that helps someone, some real actual dude out there, realize that he can live a better and more enjoyable life. Because maybe it's this story, this example, this article that catches that guy's attention, and makes him see more clearly certain things that he is already feeling in an inchoate way.

For those of us who have been around here for a while, it may sometimes all seem like endless repetition. But always remember that there is someone out there seeing it for the first time. To him, it's fresh and important.

Is there any goal that could possibly be better, more noble, or more justified?

Speaking personally now. As I've made clear many times on the forum, I don't believe in the ideas of gloom and doom, inevitable decline, cultural collapse etc. There has never been a period in history in which thinkers have not predicted impending collapse -- and they have usually been proven wrong, often comically so. No one can predict the future, but the one constant that can be guaranteed is continued scientific and technological progress that over time results in impossible to foresee and game-changing differences in kind.

By the same token, looking at the world as it is today, I see a world in which men can live the most interesting, enjoyable, healthy, various and fulfilling lives that have ever been lived.

But just because these lives can be lived, does not mean that they will be. All the opportunities in the world are no good if a man squanders his life in a bad marriage, in divorce hell, in an unhealthy and sickening lifestyle, in the cognitive misery of believing himself to be an oppressor who has to endlessly expiate his sins before the infinitely pedestalized female, who in the meantime is sucking off the proverbial truck driver behind his back.

If by being here and posting I can help a few guys -- even one guy -- live the kind of healthy, interesting and enjoyable life I am convinced is within our grasp, rather than a life of self-inflicted confusion and drudgery, then any and all efforts expended here are beyond justified.

This is how I see it.

[heavy]

Quote:

Does it follow that you must fight?...The manosphere's ability to reason and analyze is certainly to its credit.

You seem to be answering your own question. If by "fight" you mean stay updated and share thoughts on the world from a reasonable and analytical perspective...it seems finishing that statement would demean the reader.

Quote:

if you don't have it within you to...

...to kill someone, then you aren't really choosing to not kill them.
...to be a liberal, then you aren't really choosing to be a conservative (or vice versa).
Interesting logic.