[jamaicabound]

Okay so ultimately I think we control our own destiny, control how we feel, etc. I think most people also recognize it's alot easier to feel powerful when you got a good job, making good money, in good shape.

My question is this. Do you think low level jobs make you more beta?

I've talked about this before on other threads but I have a very successful ecommerce business so feeeling pretty good about myself. I also however still work a low level essentially retail job. I catch myself when speaking to customers at my retail job ending my sentences in a higher pitch than normal and just overall exhibiting subserviant tendencies or body language. This is really the only time I do this though.

I think this comes from a variety of things, a you obviously have to be friendly to the customer, customer is always right, all that jazz. More so though, I remember when I got my first office job it was really quite a change not being micromanaged and treated like a child. You come in when you want, if you come in later you stay late. There's no 30 minute lunch and if your one minute late get written up, if you wanna take a 2 hour lunch and run some errands for the most part nobody is going to say shit if you get your work done. Overall just treated like a man and an adult vs lower level or retail jobs being treated like a child and talked to like an idiot at times. Managers oftentimes aren't that skilled or educated just have a position of power because they've worked there for the longest so oftentimes they try to powertrip.

In retail however your treated like a child, made to do role play scenarios, get written up if your a minute late, can't come off bad to customers, tend to do teh overly friendly thing.

Now I know you can be alpha and powerful and still be friendly and nice and not be a pussy. That said I've been working really hard on eye contact, how I hold myself and carry myself, taking up space, posture, and I feel good about myself but i notice the one area I tend to revert to old behaviors is at my day job which is a low level retail job. Just curious if others have noticeed this in themselves or if its just me.

[Isaac Jordan]

From Roissy's Defining the Alpha Male:

Quote:

Many want to believe that getting girls is ancillary to being a true alpha male; that the real measure of an alpha lies in his ability to dominate other men, or his command of his environment, or his thirst for swashbuckling adventure. While these are admirable alpha traits, they are nothing but a means to an end. Make no mistake, at the most fundamental level the CRUX of a man’s worth is measured by his desirability to women, whether he chooses to play the game or not. Pussy is the holy grail. That is why the obese, socially maladroit nerdboy who manages to unlock the gate to the secret garden and bang a 10 regularly is an alpha male. And that is also why the rich, charming entrepreneur who because of an emotional deficiency or mental sickness lives mired in parched celibacy is not an alpha male.

Due to this enduring confusion about what makes an alpha, I submit the following system, in the form of a handy chart, to help clear the air. It hits on the three major factors influencing male rank — how hot are the women he can attract, how strong is that attraction for him, and how many of those women find him attractive.

I hate the alpha/beta debate as much as anyone, but this really ought to be the defining measure of what it means to be alpha or beta: are you getting laid? With hot women? Lots of them?

If you're leaving this shitty retail job to go home and bang top-notch pussy, then no, the job is not "making you beta". If it destroys your self-esteem, prevents you from approaching, or actively repels chicks you approach, etc., then yes, perhaps it is.

I had a stoner buddy in high school who worked at Burger King and would bang his smokin hot cheerleader girlfriend in his car during lunch break, while I was running my own business and didn't lose my virginity until college. By all objective standards, he was a loser and I was a winner, but by sexual market standards he was an alpha and I was a beta.

I'm of the opinion that it's your attitude, not necessarily your occupation, that primarily makes you attractive or unattractive to women. Sure, it helps to be a CEO or the like, but if you can't approach, generate attraction, or seal the deal, then that position means jack squat.

[jamaicabound]

I guess maybe beta was the wrong word to use. I guess maybe i should have posed the question can you be assertive, powerful, and confident in a low level service oriented position. Wasnt really angling towards does it affect game so much as those thibgs. That said you make an interesting point about what gives a man value

[Beyond Borders]

(04-10-2014 09:42 AM)Isaac Jordan Wrote:  

I had a stoner buddy in high school who worked at Burger King and would bang his smokin hot cheerleader girlfriend in his car during lunch break, while I was running my own business and didn't lose my virginity until college. By all objective standards, he was a loser and I was a winner, but by sexual market standards he was an alpha and I was a beta.

I'm of the opinion that it's your attitude, not necessarily your occupation, that primarily makes you attractive or unattractive to women. Sure, it helps to be a CEO or the like, but if you can't approach, generate attraction, or seal the deal, then that position means jack squat.

Yup, in college, one of my roommates worked a fast-food job in the mall and trolled the hallways for bitches on breaks. He was always bringing broads back after work. Then he had a job pumping gas. Same deal - swooped like a madman. One of the best players I've known in my life and passed the hundo mark before we hit 20.

He's now married, has a couple kids, and teaches high school students for a living. Don't know that he plays the field like he used to, but definitely could if he wanted to.

I worry I'll see him on the news someday - all his students want to fuck him and I know he's a horn-dawg at heart. haha

Back to the OPs question, these aren't really jobs you want to work your whole life (fuck, unless you're happy, then who cares), but a lot of charismatic guys start out in positions like this and build their people skills interacting with people in retail stores and restaurants.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

[quote='Isaac Jordan' pid='699069' dateline='1397140973']
From Roissy's Defining the Alpha Male:

[quote]

I had a stoner buddy in high school who worked at Burger King and would bang his smokin hot cheerleader girlfriend in his car during lunch break, while I was running my own business and didn't lose my virginity until college. By all objective standards, he was a loser and I was a winner, but by sexual market standards he was an alpha and I was a beta.

I'm of the opinion that it's your attitude, not necessarily your occupation, that primarily makes you attractive or unattractive to women. Sure, it helps to be a CEO or the like, but if you can't approach, generate attraction, or seal the deal, then that position means jack squat.
[/quote]

You got it right there. A shitty job lowers your self-esteem. However the younger you less the less it is so, since you can always rationalize it away (justly or unjustly) for being temporary.

Nevertheless current retail and even many service jobs are absolutely degrading for a man. The character in the movie "The Wrestler" tried everything to avoid those jobs and preferred certain suicide in the ring to living such a life. That is not taken out of context.

Of course it is all in the head and it may be possible to stay detached and totally Alpha despite having that kind of job. I personally know one such man who lost his business and fortune at age 60 and started working at a large retailer. He finds energy and power in his faith and daily 1-hour-meditations. Needless to say he is always happy and full of joy, but obviously he derives it from a source beyond his job.

My recommendation is to go this guy's way, find something that energizes you beyond work and for God's sake find some other source of income if you are young enough.

[jamaicabound]

I was thinking more in terms of maybe guys in their mid to later 20s. Sure its relevant to all ages but its badically expected that as a higj school or college student your going to be working lower level jobs these days very few people work a ft job and go to schoop fulltime. I guess maybe im talking more about when your a few years and your more expected to be more settled and have a career and not just a job

[cardguy]

A shitty job is very dangerous for you sanity.

A lot of people do a shitty job - thinking they will quit after 6 months and do something else. And then they end up spending decades in the job.

Nothing gets you questioning your opinion of yourself than doing a shitty job - and have those around you think you suck at it. Or that have found your natural level in the organisation.

It is a real mental fuck.

If Warren Buffett was doing a menial job where nobody knew who he was - he would blend in like anyone else and everyone else would think he was just average at his job.

You can see an example of that here - in a funny comedy sketch:

And having people you spend 8 hours a day drilling that image of yourself into you can be a powerful thing which is hard to control.

The first job you stay at for a few years is often a random job you bounce into. But - it can subtly limit your mindset for the rest of your career.

I have definitely noticed that with myself. So - I am sure it is a common feeling.

I am cool with my situation in life - since my parents are well off. But - if somebody was more ambitious than me - I would tell them that any menial job should come with a giant health warning attached. It can be like a brain parasite which takes over your mind and makes you start buying into how others see you - and not how you see yourself.

I am glad this topic came up - since the above is something I wanted to put down on the forum for awhile now.

[Beyond Borders]

(04-10-2014 10:13 AM)jamaicabound Wrote:  

I was thinking more in terms of maybe guys in their mid to later 20s. Sure its relevant to all ages but its badically expected that as a higj school or college student your going to be working lower level jobs these days very few people work a ft job and go to schoop fulltime. I guess maybe im talking more about when your a few years and your more expected to be more settled and have a career and not just a job

It gets a bit different as you get older, but not as much as you think.

I've pulled plenty of hot women while broke as fuck in mid and upper 20s as well as lower 30s. With younger and older guys who had their shit far more together grinning at me and asking me how I do it. Not as a matter of course but often enough. I've seen other guys do the same, some of them even older and some even less well off.

Then you see other guys who are fucking with themselves about it and they can't get ass to save their life. One I know like this in particular still gets carded for booze in his mid-30s and women find him hot but he can't hold onto even ugly bitches because he's so insecure.

Because his mind isn't right - not necessarily because his money isn't.

And I think confidence is honestly one of the best reasons to make cash in the first place. In our society, money is control and status, so even if you can hold your own without it, you feel so much better about yourself when you know you are in control, that you can provide for yourself (and others if needed), and that you have options in life.

It's possible to access those feelings without doing well financially but it's much harder.

There are a few fucked up chicken vs egg things going on here though. It takes confidence to get women but it takes getting women to gain confidence. It takes confidence to do well financially (usually) and doing well financially makes you confident.

All you can do is control what you can control - how you feel inside - and take whatever small steps towards the things you want (women and money) until you start revving up some momentum. Don't beat yourself up about what you can't change instantly, and don't stock too much interest in what you "should" be doing according to other people's opinions.

No doubt some aging women do find it odd if you're not in a traditional career. Even with me, as I'm a freelancer, it can raise eyebrows. I don't let what random women think worry me too much. I'm sure it plays a role, but if you're just out banging broads at the bar in the states, I don't think your job description will cost you many bangs.

It shouldn't be an issue at any point in your 20s unless you're going on dates and the women are really looking to date up the economic ladder. By 30s, you should be in a career or treating a biz like one anyways, so by then it may not be an issue you have to think about.

Unless you hit a hard luck streak and have to start over, in which case, not much you can do about it, so you just do it and don't worry too much how it looks.

[Veloce]

Hell no they don't.

One of the funnest jobs you can have is being a waiter or busboy. You can fuck your coworkers with impunity (unlike being in a management position where your job is at stake). The trick is to find a place to work that's already kind of a shitshow, where your deviant antics won't be glaringly obvious due to the problematic operations of the place. For instance if vendors are constantly hounding the owner for outstanding invoices, if the plumbing is always going out, if the owner's partner is an alcoholic, then you can run amok screwing the female staff, selling drugs, placing bets, stealing, and whatever your twisted heart desires and stay out of the spotlight.

A lot of corporate training is designed to get low level employees to give a shit, for the reason that it's in our nature to NOT give a shit. What they don't tell you is that if you don't give a shit, it's unlikely you'll get fired. Especially in states like California, it's very difficult to fire someone as it puts the company at a liability

[kinjutsu]

Being on your money grind is never beta.
Making money however you can is better than waiting for a handout from the government.

I'd rather spend my whole life grind out and hustling than have things handed to me. Why? Because if i was instantly rich then lost the money a few years down the line i wouldn't know how to make money.
If i was always hustling and having something on the go being broke wouldn't matter because i would know how to make money.

[The Beast1]

Some of the hardest lessons you will learn come from when you're down on your luck in a horrible sh!t eating job.

There is nothing beta about hard life lessons. The path to being "alpha" is learning how to play the hand dealt to you and working it.

[Drazen]

If you are happy with your job and your life then you are winning in life and are living an alpha lifestyle.

A bartender is a low level job, yet they score the hottest women pretty easily.

An accountant makes money, is responsible, but they probably get married to some ugly hag and keep up with their neighbors and live vicariously through their single friends.

Of course it always up to the person, but I'd be content being an old crazy man selling bait and going fishing in some tropical island. Its the lowest of the low but your lifestyle defines you, not how much money your make.

[Captain Gh]

(04-10-2014 10:26 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

(04-10-2014 10:13 AM)jamaicabound Wrote:  

I was thinking more in terms of maybe guys in their mid to later 20s. Sure its relevant to all ages but its badically expected that as a higj school or college student your going to be working lower level jobs these days very few people work a ft job and go to schoop fulltime. I guess maybe im talking more about when your a few years and your more expected to be more settled and have a career and not just a job

It gets a bit different as you get older, but not as much as you think.

I've pulled plenty of hot women while broke as fuck in mid and upper 20s as well as lower 30s. With younger and older guys who had their shit far more together grinning at me and asking me how I do it. Not as a matter of course but often enough. I've seen other guys do the same, some of them even older and some even less well off.

Then you see other guys who are fucking with themselves about it and they can't get ass to save their life. One I know like this in particular still gets carded for booze in his mid-30s and women find him hot but he can't hold onto even ugly bitches because he's so insecure.

Because his mind isn't right - not necessarily because his money isn't.

And I think confidence is honestly one of the best reasons to make cash in the first place. In our society, money is control and status, so even if you can hold your own without it, you feel so much better about yourself when you know you are in control, that you can provide for yourself (and others if needed), and that you have options in life.

It's possible to access those feelings without doing well financially but it's much harder.

There are a few fucked up chicken vs egg things going on here though. It takes confidence to get women but it takes getting women to gain confidence. It takes confidence to do well financially (usually) and doing well financially makes you confident.

All you can do is control what you can control - how you feel inside - and take whatever small steps towards the things you want (women and money) until you start revving up some momentum. Don't beat yourself up about what you can't change instantly, and don't stock too much interest in what you "should" be doing according to other people's opinions.

No doubt some aging women do find it odd if you're not in a traditional career. Even with me, as I'm a freelancer, it can raise eyebrows. I don't let what random women think worry me too much. I'm sure it plays a role, but if you're just out banging broads at the bar in the states, I don't think your job description will cost you many bangs.

It shouldn't be an issue at any point in your 20s unless you're going on dates and the women are really looking to date up the economic ladder. By 30s, you should be in a career or treating a biz like one anyways, so by then it may not be an issue you have to think about.

Unless you hit a hard luck streak and have to start over, in which case, not much you can do about it, so you just do it and don't worry too much how it looks.

Whoa!! I must say this is a fantastic motivational post to get your shit together if you're not there already. I'm in the process of doing so, and seeing this post just dug deeper the reason why it's so important to get it done!!

[PoosyWrecker]

One thing that helped me was to always 'find a way to take care of number 1'. For example when I worked a minimum wage unarmed security job that had me walking around aimlessly for 12 hours I printed an easily readable stack of cards will the new vocabulary I wanted to learn in Thai. Every few minutes when my path of travel would take me out of sight of the cameras and coworkers I'd read off the list, then commit it to memory as I walked my route. After a week I had hundreds of new words I'd learned, and I hadn't totally wasted my life for someone I didn't know at $8 / hr.

If I was back at a low level, zero commission retail job I'd listen to audiobooks on the way to and from work on salesmanship and use the company's time to practice sales and closing techniques for myself. (like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCux3ifZOyY) If possible I'd also do the language thing I wrote about in Spanish or whatever foreign language some of the customers spoke. If it isn't possible, find a way to make it possible!

Even though you still have to clock in and out to the dumb job for now, I think that if you can find ways like I mentioned to 'take back' your time you won't feel beta any longer, and if you don't feel beta you won't act beta.

[rudebwoy]

I worked retail in college, it was a high end department store. I miss those days because I dressed a lot better and had access to good quality poon.
I don't care if it is beta or not, I care if I am happy. Being a Lawyer/Doctor may be high status but other than the money I have no desire to do those jobs, no disrespect to guys that do that. I realize we have a few among our ranks.
I have a friend who is a waiter in a Caribbean hotel, his gig is so sick that I would do it in a heartbeat.
The bottom line is, if you have to ask then your are beta.

[jamaicabound]

(04-10-2014 03:49 PM)PoosyWrecker Wrote:  

One thing that helped me was to always 'find a way to take care of number 1'. For example when I worked a minimum wage unarmed security job that had me walking around aimlessly for 12 hours I printed an easily readable stack of cards will the new vocabulary I wanted to learn in Thai. Every few minutes when my path of travel would take me out of sight of the cameras and coworkers I'd read off the list, then commit it to memory as I walked my route. After a week I had hundreds of new words I'd learned, and I hadn't totally wasted my life for someone I didn't know at $8 / hr.

If I was back at a low level, zero commission retail job I'd listen to audiobooks on the way to and from work on salesmanship and use the company's time to practice sales and closing techniques for myself. (like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCux3ifZOyY) If possible I'd also do the language thing I wrote about in Spanish or whatever foreign language some of the customers spoke. If it isn't possible, find a way to make it possible!

Even though you still have to clock in and out to the dumb job for now, I think that if you can find ways like I mentioned to 'take back' your time you won't feel beta any longer, and if you don't feel beta you won't act beta.

You make a great point. Ive been in my job for a while. I eventually started an ecommerce business realizing an unmet need my companies clients had and do some work on the clock. That said before I started that biz I was spending some time at work on blogging and affiliate marketing stuff. Even if its just reading or educating yourself I try to use my time here that Im bein paid and stuck here to learn new skills whether its a language, seo, ppc management, etc

[jamaicabound]

(04-10-2014 07:56 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

I worked retail in college, it was a high end department store. I miss those days because I dressed a lot better and had access to good quality poon.
I don't care if it is beta or not, I care if I am happy. Being a Lawyer/Doctor may be high status but other than the money I have no desire to do those jobs, no disrespect to guys that do that. I realize we have a few among our ranks.
I have a friend who is a waiter in a Caribbean hotel, his gig is so sick that I would do it in a heartbeat.
The bottom line is, if you have to ask then your are beta.

Yeah your right some of the funnest jobs I had were lower level stuff. I worked at Crate and Barrel for a few years pretty much 99% women and young girls. I was banging 2 sisters who both worked there That ended up blowing up in my face and of course everyone in the place hated me b/c im te guy and they all side with her. Anyhow with low level jobs you have a lot of younger women, its pretty relaxed and unstressed and you know its not your lifelong career so even if things do go south with fraternizing its not like its your dream job.

That said I think maybe I laid out this post a bit wrong in my wording. I find the thread very interesting and enjoy it but was not really comming from teh angle of can you get girls working low level jobs, I probably landed some of my best girls wihle working low level jobs or even unemployed but I was more comming at this from teh angle of does being in the service industry and having to do the customer is always right thing and be more friendly than natural does that maybe hurt not confidence so much but does it hurt your frame I guess may be a better way to state it or does it chip away at your assertiveness since while working retail or service industry jobs you pretty much have to cave to customers demands you cant really be assertive and stand your ground in many scearios.

In my business I'm polite but don't take shit from my customers and if someone is running game or trying to scam me I'm very firm. Same in everyday life make eye contact, hold my head high. I find myself in retail though ahving to deal with customers being a bit more submissive in body language, voice tone, etc. Like I was saying I catch myself ending my sentences high pitched and overly friendly

[Orion]

No they don't. If you understand that work brings prosperity, that creativity brings wealth, and you are moving in that direction by starting with a low end job, then thumbs up. Fuck that shit if a woman is going to keep you tied to a cubicle because that is higher "status" job.

However, yes, if a dead-end job is your lifetime carrier, then obviously, you lack the above mentioned qualities - initiative, creativity, dedication, etc...

[Beyond Borders]

(04-11-2014 11:03 AM)Orion Wrote:  

No they don't. If you understand that work brings prosperity, that creativity brings wealth, and you are moving in that direction by starting with a low end job, then thumbs up. Fuck that shit if a woman is going to keep you tied to a cubicle because that is higher "status" job.

Yes.

Don't work for women; work for yourself.

It's like the differences in spending habits between the rich and the poor. The poor want to drive a flashy new car. The self-made rich often got there by making sacrifices and not being worried about status.

Starting in the trenches teaches you what you need to know to get to the top (as long as you show up to work and achieve a goal rather than just to collect a paycheck).

[Nineteen84]

Maybe low level jobs reveal the beta whereas high status jobs shield the beta from being recognised? Regardless I wish I did more to avoid these type of jobs when I was younger. Nice post jamaicabound.

[cardguy]

[Jackreacher]

Perception is everything. Work a low level job long enough and you will become low level, most others will perceive you that way also. You have to do things that mimic the best view of yourself. When you work those jobs do you feel free? Are you taking advantage of life? Is your life enviable? The smartest people around do not work, they have hobbies, passions, that's all they do. Many of them are also wealthy and if not then at least they're quite comfortable. I'd prefer someone lie to me then tell they've been working at McDonald's for 2+ years. Smart people learn really quickly what 7 dollars an hour flipping burgers feels like. And the ones that don't leave, well...

[El Chinito loco]

I'm in my 30's and worked a series of shit jobs when I was much younger and here is what I learned..

Don't fuck around even at a shit job and don't take a quitter's mentality. Even if it's flipping burgers be the best burger flipper you can.

The reason why I say that is because being a slacker or quitter sort of gets engrained into your personality and becomes habitual. Even when you eventually get to that place you want to be there's a lot of people who have zero work ethic or personal responsibility. Don't be that person.

Before I started my own business I was managing a business for years. There are a shitload of millenials and Gen X'ers who have zero work ethic or personal responsibilty these days. I did not hesitate at all when it came to showing people like this the door. The people with work ethic and responsibility were also visibly more successful in other areas of their life as well.

[Hades]

They say that you're the average of five people you hang out with.
If you're always in contact with coworkers who are basically fuckups that's bound to rub off sooner than later. Tentative answer to your question : yes.

[Grit]

We have a socially agreed upon 8 hour work day. Yet employers will not be satisfied with coming in and kicking ass for 8 hours. Instead, its a weaseling extraction of pedantry and conformity, making sure you are 'diverse' 'equal' and 'team player.'

I have yet to find a modern company that promises such a quid pro quo: "Come in, kick ass, and we will make you wealthy." Instead, they reject having the onus to provide you with wealth. You get some airhead managerial newspeak about "we are not here to make you wealthy, that's dependent on your own drive and hustle wink wink"

The measure of an ultimate society is one of men motivated to make each other wealthy, instead of self-enrichment at the cost of all others.