[Checkmat]

In this post I want to give a very brief recap of my novice experience with learning game, tell you why I am now a 100% believer in going direct all the time, and end with a story/question about an approach I just had today.

For the past year I've been doing a lot ofRoosh's indirect approaches. In 90% of the approaches, the conversations were boring, forced and I felt very stressed out doing them. I felt like a faker, knowing full well that I really just wanted to bang these girls and didn't give a flying fuck about their Macbook, headphones or running shoes.

I believe this fakeness showed through in these approaches and resulted in stilted, nervous behavior while I tried to force personal questions by dropping bait. It all felt so laborious and convoluted.

Over 100 approaches, I got a few numbers, mostly flakes/one fake number, and one bang/short term relationship.

The biggest problem I had with it was not the return on investment, but how fake I felt doing the approaches. I felt like a nervous actor, sweating on stage trying to make himself believable.

A big revelation came in the form of Mark Manson's book, Models. I'd seen it on Amazon before and kind of dismissed it as new-wavey and just contrary to what most PUA/red pill guys seem to think.

So when I bought it and read it in 3 days, I was surprised at how much it resonated with me and shifted my way of thinking about seduction.

The premise is that being genuine and straight up about your attraction to a girl from the beginning is in and of itself attractive. Because you are showing rare vulnerability by discarding all smokescreens, you are confident in yourself and aren't phased by the possibility of rejection.

By also polarizing girls right from the start, you sort out the ones that aren't digging your vibe/look/approach and don't waste time talking about bullshit being indirect and trying to win them over. You don't try to win anybody over. You simply polarize early on and ride the wave of intrigue from a neutral or positive response.

There's a TON more to it than that, but that is the core of what Manson talks about. Being comfortable with vulnerability is the keystone to everything else.

Since I finished reading Models a few days ago, I've been walking around unashamed of my attraction to cute girls I see. Before, I'd walk around feeling sleazy, creepy and thinking of strategies for initiating indirect convos. "Hm, what item can I ask old man questions about? How can I make this seem authentic and not let my horniness shine through?"

Now, when I see an attractive girl I make confident eye contact and smile. I let my intentions show through before even talking. I think, "Hey, I think you're attractive. And I'm okay with letting you know that" (even though it exposes me to possible rejection).

I've only done two direct approaches since this new paradigm shift but both of them have felt amazing, and I got one number already. The girls both seemed impressed by my boldness, flattered and a little aroused.

It's hunting in the wild in it's purest form. No trickery.

Because doing direct approaches is so much more comfortable, it's congruent with my intentions and what I really feel, the approaches themselves are so much more enjoyable for both people. Any shame or sexual repression that I had to bottle up before is gone. I feel like I'm being the man that I really am and just going after something I want. And that in and of itself is attractive.

So for these reasons, I am a total believe in what many of the guys on this forum have been doing for years. While I think going indirect has it's time and place, and it surely wouldn't be advisable to tell every attractive girl that you meet that you're into her, going direct has a profound affect on inner game immediately. Just my two cents as a novice to learning game and very early on in my new paradigm shift.

[Checkmat]

Now for my question to you guys. Funny situation.

My second direct daytime approach was today. I was walking through a health food grocery store and saw a cute thin blonde shopping. We checked out at the same time and were parked right next to each other. As we put our groceries in our respective cars I put my cart back and said, "Hey". She said "Hi" and it went like this

Me: I know this is totally random, but...I saw you in there and I wanted to meet you because I think you're cute.
Her: Oh, thanks! I have a boyfriend.
Me: Of course you do!
Her: Sorry!
Me: Don't apologize.

The whole time I was totally unfazed and just felt good from the approach itself. I was ready to pack up and leave the parking lot in my car.

Instead, she continued the convo. She said, "So are you just on your day off?"
Me: No, I'm working. See my ID badge? (and pointed to my badge)
Her: Ohh me too! (points to her own ID card around her neck)
Me: Where do you work?

And we went into a cool convo and she was asking me all kinds of personal questions. She asked where I lived, where I was from, what my job is etc etc. When she mentioned she does hand modeling, I said "Let me see your hands." She laughed and showed them to me and I was honestly unimpressed. They looked kind of ragged.

Me: Woww..Those are amazing.
Her: haha
Me: Damn, if you're a hand model maybe I could be a hand model too (hold up my own plain looking hands)

After some more laughing and banter I tell her I need to go. "I know you said you have a boyfriend but do you want to get a drink sometime, just as friends?"
Her: Well, I have a twin sister whose relationship is on the rocks right now. Maybe I could set you guys up.
Me: Hm, that'd be cool. Is she as funny as you?
Her: Oh totally, she is just like me and looks just like me. Give me your number and I'll put you in touch.

Instead of just giving her my number I decide to take hers and text it so she has mine. So she gets my text, reads my number and I tell her yup thats it. Some more banter about area codes and she asks about where I'm from and we peace out.

My initial suspcision and a friend's confirmation of it as being suspect is that the girl is the twin, there is no twin and she just didn't want to look bad by giving her number out after saying she has a boyfriend. We all know how hamster brains work.

So my question to you guys is, how do I proceed with this? I have her number, not the "twin's" number. Do I keep gaming her, hit her up about her "twin", or...What? What are the chances that she really does have a twin sister she wants to hook me up with? I was thinking it's 20% chance of being real and 80% chance of her not wanting to look like a cheating slut but still wanting my cock.

Anyway as a guy new to going direct and being in this situation, I'm looking for guidance from y'all. Any thoughts?

[RexImperator]

Sounds like what you're talking about is more indirect-direct? This is when your body language and sub-communication is direct but the words are indirect. At least at first. The intent is still clear to her. I agree with your first post though.

[redbeard]

Threesome!

[Parlay44]

It's easier for women to limit the supply of sex when the demand is high. That's why they like Alphas. They think they can control them with sex.

Betas come across as less sexual or non sexual by going indirect. In her mind she's thinking "He's cute but he'll be annoying when I'm in the mood to fuck".

Going indirect gives a guy some low pressure female attention. To guys that get no attention at all this is like crack.

You gotta get over the fact that she's hot. It doesn't mean anything. Most girls are insecure about every minute detail of their looks anyway.

The problem with going direct is that you're forcing her to make a decision on the spot. You'll only get a good response if you're physically attractive to her.

You gotta mix it up. You open indirect then toss out some feelers. Funny observations mixed with double entendres and playful sexual innuendos. I call it Austin Powers game

[Stun]

I haven't read all the seduction books out there, probably less than 1 per year, but I can honestly say I improved a lot after reading Models. One thing I will say about Manson is: he has a better understanding of the mindset of a guy who gets into pickup than anyone else who has ever written about it.

OP, I'm glad that it is working for you.

Come to think of it, the only other book that ever really helped me improve was Day Bang, not in the sense that I began opening indirect but it helped me improve my overall conversation skills dramatically. Especially in situations where direct will not fly.

[YossariansRight]

Being able to analyze what's going on and adjusting your game plan (direct, indirect, etc..) is the key.

Adapt different strategies for different situations. There is no rule that "technique 'x'" must be used at all times. Whatever works for you, do it. Don't be afraid to adjust whatever game you're using for the exact situation you're in.

You need to be comfortable and confident. If you're not, it will show.

[bodmon]

(04-09-2014 09:49 AM)Checkmat Wrote:  

I've only done two direct approaches since this new paradigm shift but both of them have felt amazing, and I got one number already.

lmao. OP I suggest you do a bit more than... 2 approaches before you start shouting from the mountaintops about this style of game.

[WestIndianArchie]

(04-09-2014 09:49 AM)Checkmat Wrote:  

For the past year I've been doing a lot ofRoosh's indirect approaches. In 90% of the approaches, the conversations were boring, forced and I felt very stressed out doing them. I felt like a faker, knowing full well that I really just wanted to bang these girls and didn't give a flying fuck about their Macbook, headphones or running shoes.

So basically you were doing it wrong, and now you've found something more to your liking. Great!

WIA

[Travesty]

If you feel like a sleezy fake at indirect it is because you are not comfortable or experienced with it enough yet.

Indirect is just flirty small talk. It really is just developing the gift of gab.

I think mixing directs in though is essential it boosts your masculine confidence, but will be a low chance success in many situations even if the girl is into your looks.

A common situation is where there are bystanders around as an audience. Direct may come off as too much pressure, where indirect can warm her up comfortably for a number crunch. Your body language, tone, and eyes are much more important than what you say.

Also indirect as a side benefit makes you practice being a socializer and a people person. Making conversation and a connection from nothing is a huge strength in life.

[Valhalla]

I read models.

He says a lot of be vulnerable, straight up, don't play games, etc.

Personally I don't think it works for the average guy. Woman want an aloof vague guy, you have to manipulate them and play games and always play hot and cold, make her stay jealous, dread, etc.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

In my opinion both approaches are good and anyone should learn both direct and indirect day game.

However it is difficult to imagine a guy like Christian McQueen doing much of indirect game. You have to pick the game that fits your personality. Some simply do not like Night Game in most countries, while others try to master all aspects of game.

Going direct around noon in a coffee shop is not recommendable. In some countries girls are used to their men often going caveman-direct-game and they react badly to that.

I personally think that KrauserPUA has one of the best direct daygame models while Roosh teaches excellent indirect day game.

[unbowed]

Next. 2 approaches is not even sticking your foot in the water. Do 50 to get a feel for it.

you went direct in the sense that you said she was cute and that's it. Girls are great at making things up, for all you know she thought of some friends to label her "boyfriend" and "twin sister" so the lie 'feels' believable.

It's one thing to express direct interest off the bat, but there's more to it than just saying a girl is cute. Vibe and intent are important but that doesn't mean you can relax game technique. Direct game isn't about cool conversation, it's about sexualizing from the start. It feels good to switch to direct intent, but get ready for some quick rejections. I think this interaction was a slow, painless rejection since you were both parked next to each other and you weren't a psycho towards her. She figured she could score some validation brownies from you.

I say this because the conversation steered into HR interview territory soon after the bf; asides from telling her she's cute there was no sexualized banter. some jokes, laughs and checklist questions sure, but that's not getting her wet. It sounded like a convo two people from college have to catch up. Maybe you could have turned it around if you didn't have to get back to work; sexualized the convo and convince her to skip out work, who knows...

Also you asked for her # with qualification - 'just as friends'. The approach went from balls on the line to... ok ok we'll have a 'normal conversation'. You actually opened direct and 'closed' indirect, which means you let her take the lead throughout.

Roosh's DG model is great for indoor venues such as a coffee shop, subway or grocery store in that the girl won't feel 'ambushed'. You might get away with telling a girl she looks cute in aisle 5, you might get security called. The important thing is whatever you use in the situation you're in, use it consistently. Don't mix direct and indirect together; it'll mess up the vibe.

Now what if you approached her in aisle 5 with an indirect opener? What if you never saw her in the shop, waited in the queue with her and walked out with her and instead went direct as soon as you saw her outside for the first time? Some things to keep in mind.

[Giovonny]

Checkmat,

I loved your post and I agree with you 99%. As a guy who has done over 1000 direct day time approaches, I want say a few things.. It might sound like I'm challenging you but I'm really not. I'm just sort of playing "devils advocate" for the sake of this discussion. Everyone knows I love direct. I also have enough experience to know that no style should be used 100% of the time. Game is not like science, it's like sports. We must be ready to adapt and adjust at any moment.

(04-09-2014 09:49 AM)Checkmat Wrote:  

I am now a 100% believer in going direct all the time

Be careful with this.

No style will work 100% of the time.

Learn to use all 3 styles, depending on the situation.

In some situations, girls prefer a more indirect style and going direct will hurt your chances.

There is a time and place for everything.

Don't be an extremist, be an artist.

(04-09-2014 09:49 AM)Checkmat Wrote:  

By polarizing girls right from the start, you sort out the ones that aren't digging your vibe/look/approach

Yes, I love that word, "polarize". I like to polarize, but, sometimes, its better to polarize slowly, rather then quickly.

"Polarization" can be done with indirect as well as direct.

(04-09-2014 09:49 AM)Checkmat Wrote:  

I've only done two direct approaches since this new paradigm shift but both of them have felt amazing.

Is your goal to "feel amazing" or is your goal to get laid? Maybe, its both?

My point is that what makes us "feel amazing" is not always what gets us laid..

You can go direct all day and you will "feel amazing", but, the point is too get laid, not just to "feel amazing".

If you have never gotten laid from direct approaching, how do you know it is the best style for you???

Just because you "feel amazing" doesn't mean the girl is attracted to you.

2 approaches is not enough to form a solid hypothesis.

Do 500 and see what you think..

Remember, "feeling amazing" is different than getting sex.

(04-09-2014 09:58 AM)Checkmat Wrote:  

how do I proceed with this?

Play along with the "twin sister" routine.

Set up a date with the twin sister.

Whatever girl shows up, try to bang.

(04-09-2014 10:22 AM)Parlay44 Wrote:  

The problem with going direct is that you're forcing her to make a decision on the spot.

That's a great point.

(04-09-2014 10:22 AM)Parlay44 Wrote:  

You gotta mix it up. You open indirect then toss out some feelers. Funny observations mixed with double entendres and playful sexual innuendos. I call it Austin Powers game

Well said.

"Austin Powers Game" Hahaha!

*****

I use all 3 styles. Actually, I think there are 4 styles..

Indirect
Direct
Indirect to Direct
Direct to Indirect

The better you are at each of them. the more tools you have in your tool belt.

Fuck, I just thought of 2 more styles..

Indirect language with direct vibe/body language

Direct language with indirect vibe/body language

There are many ways to do it. Play around with all of them and find the ones work best for you.

I like all of them at certain times.

I would never limit myself to only one style.

[Checkmat]

It's definitely possible this was a premature thread. I was feeling pretty good about trying something that I previously thought I could not do.

Gio makes good points about not being too dogmatic about always doing this, or always doing that.

As far as the mixture of indirect/direct body language/vibe and actual words, Mark Manson addresses this, sort of.

Basically what he says in Models is that your intentions are always shining through. Unless you're a really good actor, a girl will be able to tell when you're hitting on them. And if the action is inconsistent with the intention, it (potentially) can be a turn-off because you aren't being your authentic self with her. You feel like you need to pretend to be interested in her shoes or whatever instead of just having balls and being direct.

I think for me personally, the number-one takeaway from why I am so excited about direct approaching is this:

Gio talked to me on the forum way in the past about depression. When I feel depressed, I feel so down and bad about myself that even when I would approach (indirectly), no matter how it went I wouldn't feel any better. Because I felt bad about myself, I was projecting that belief to them that I wasn't "worthy". The old saying, "If you don't respect yourself, why would anybody else?"

Contrasted against how I've felt going direct, what has happened is doing the approach makes me respect myself intstantly x1000. So few guys out there are doing this stuff, having the balls to walk up to hot girl and tell her straight up I think she's attractive and I wanted to meet her, well...That is a dude I have to respect. And that dude is me!

So again, just anecdotally speaking, direct approaching is making me feel really good about myself. Which may have the secondary effect of leaking into all parts of social life. Indirect/Direct/body language/beliefs/etc.

I find it therapeutic.

[Stun]

(04-09-2014 12:03 PM)Valhalla Wrote:  

I read models.

He says a lot of be vulnerable, straight up, don't play games, etc.

Personally I don't think it works for the average guy. Woman want an aloof vague guy, you have to manipulate them and play games and always play hot and cold, make her stay jealous, dread, etc.

He wrote about 100 pages in the middle of the book on how not to be average. He covers fashion, fitness, what to read, what to do to improve your mind, your charisma.

If a guy followed even half of that advice he'd be so far above average it'd be laughable.

You make a salient point, though - most average guys who approach a ton of hot women are going to get blown out a lot.

[Giovonny]

Checkmat, I love what you are saying. It reminds me of myself a few years ago!

(04-09-2014 02:54 PM)Checkmat Wrote:  

Gio talked to me on the forum way in the past about depression.

What did I say???

Oh, I think I remember, I told you to get out there and approach girls!!!

Fuck your feelings, take action!

I should have told you to go direct!

(04-09-2014 02:54 PM)Checkmat Wrote:  

I find it therapeutic.

I agree.

Going direct is a great "anti-depressant".

Have fun. Keep up the good work!

The more girls you talk to, the more clear all of this will become.

You are getting stronger and more powerful.

Congratulations!

[memcpy]

Quote:

Over 100 approaches, I got a few numbers, mostly flakes/one fake number, and one bang/short term relationship.

Pretty good odds for doing 100 indirect approaches, if you just started out.

If you keep going your approaches will get lower and lower till you have a baseline. Not bad at all.

[iknowexactly]

(04-09-2014 02:59 PM)Sugar Wrote:  

most average guys who approach a ton of hot women are going to get blown out a lot.

Any guy who approaches a ton of hot women is by definition no longer average at all.... 0.1% of guys approach regularly

[tawillionaire]

Direct suits me better too. It's more of a different mindset. If you think "I want to fuck this girl and I want her to know that" then even when you're not directly hitting on her she will know what's up.

[XXL]

OP asks how to proceed with that particular situation with that particular girl only to hear everyone schooling him about everything except what he asked about


OK in your situation I'd take social approach and try to get them both out to hang out for a drink or two. Casual invite like "I'm going there join me". Nothing sexual. Just be aware that agreeing to go for that other twin girl right away might have make you look like you go for anyone who's down. Just saying.

(04-09-2014 02:54 PM)Checkmat Wrote:  

So again, just anecdotally speaking, direct approaching is making me feel really good about myself. Which may have the secondary effect of leaking into all parts of social life. Indirect/Direct/body language/beliefs/etc.

I find it therapeutic.

Good. Game is about you, not the girls. If you feel good in your own skin first, they feel good too.

[VincentVinturi]

I totally feel where you're coming from.

I started out in life as a natural. Then in high school I went through an awkward phase so I started to learn game.

Through most of college I was doing Mystery Method routines and going out 5-7 nights a week, asking girls weird questions about horses in coffee shops, etc. It was so out of control that I ran up a few Gs in credit card debt from bar tabs.

Then I saw the light with being direct, open and unapologetic about my intentions. But that too had an ego kick component to it at first.

It's like for a while I was bent on showing women how bold and direct I am, with the result that it still came off weak. Better than palm reading, no doubt, but still not quite right. Because I was still seeking approval deep down inside.

Then over time, with a lot of experimentation and God-knows how many approaches, I've learned to communicate my intentions clearly. But I have a more adaptable opening game.

My experience has been that communicating the important bits ("I'm a man. You're a woman. I want to fuck you...") non-verbally makes the overt style of interaction almost inconsequential. In fact, my number #1 opener is "hi." And in that "hi" it's very clear what I'm about.

I'm also convinced that there's an ineffable, personal alchemy to good game that can't be put into words or understood by anybody outside of yourself. Kind of like "the way that can be named is not the true way."

James Marshall talks about weak behavior vs strong behavior and effective behavior vs ineffective behavior. Weak behavior is disempowering to the man while strong behavior is empowering. Effective behavior gets the result while ineffective behavior doesn't.

You get a certain feeling inside you---a still, small voice---when you act in harmony with what YOU want AND what gets you results. The two dance around each other in a sort of precarious balance. But once you've got the knack of it...

[Foolsgo1d]

When playing direct you need to feel out the girl first. One sentence to a girl may be her dream fantasy but another girls absolute nightmare.

You may get away with it during night time at bars and clubs but in the supermarket its a 50/50.

[xxMarco]

Not to sound like a kiss ass but I agree with Gio.

I used to go direct most of the time when I was younger. I tried indirect which works better for my personality type. But most of the time it's a mix of the two.

Indirect at first then direct. Or I'll start off with direct caveman type and then make small talk. It all depends on where you are and your environment.

The biggest thing I've learned from game is you have to adapt to any type of scenario. I think it goes well with life in general. Always be ready to change your game plan. Always have an ace up your sleeve. Always keep the tricks guessing as the saying goes. Lol.

[seaAltair]

I personally try to go as direct as I can given the situation. The degree of direct stops at the point where turning it up anymore would be uncalibrated.

Sometimes, the best approach is open indirect then transition to direct frame within a minute. For example during daytime in a low energy close spaced environment where bystanders are focused on the first 30 seconds of your approach (eg: waiting in line at the DOL).

Direct requires its users to be great at making first impressions. Looks aren't the only part of the equation