[BostonBMW]

Fellas, I have been thinking about something that is critical for all of us. Defending yourself against an unwanted/unexpected aggression. An encounter/situation may occur anywhere (on the street, at club) where you need to either defend yourself or members of your party. In the face of this wanton aggression, you can defend either:

Physically

or

Using weapons

I wanted to open up a discussion to see what might be optimal method for defense here. Some of my friends have mentioned things like Krav Maga, Muy Thai, while others have spoke of carrying a concealed 9MM, knife (within the confines of the law, of course). However I want to hear from your experiences to see what would be the best combination of self defense?

[Scesci]

Really good guidelines from MikeCF
http://dangerandplay.com/2014/02/02/surv...eet-fight/
http://dangerandplay.com/2014/02/06/surv...ht-part-2/

Edit: A taser works fine IMO, if your state allows it
http://www.defenseproducts101.com/states...page2.html

[jamaicabound]

Physically I always thought Krav Maga and Brazilian Jijitsu were two things that always interested in, one of these days would like to take a class or join a gym that does one of these

As for knives, 99.9% of people have no idea how to properly use a knife in a fight and would probably wind up cutting themselves up. Also, I'm surprised how many people carry a knife out to the bars with them. I always thought that was a bad idea. First off were not always thinking clearly when drunk and may not use the best judgement in when to use a knife, also if you wind up having to use your knife with alcohol in your systm whether your the aggressor or not you'll probably catch a charge. Something like this happenned in a popular bar district in one of the Chicago burbs a year or two back.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-...rville-man

As far as guns, I like carrying a gun with me and in my car. Carrying a gun is a huge responsibility, even something as simple as forgetting to take the clip out if you get pulled over and they find it can mean big trouble. It seems like use of force is judged so differently in different cases and even diff states by law. Look at the Treyvon Martin thing, thats a kinda grey area and he got off but you see other instances where people are completely justified in using force and wind up getting charged with stuff. I'd be terririfed if I ever had to use my gun, only as a last last resort. You better really have your mind clear and know when to pull it and when not to and if you pull it things automaticallly elevate to life or death for both parties and things can go downhill very quickly. I feel safer and more comfortable having a gun in my home, carrying it out and about its almost more trouble than its worth.

A while back I picked up a little Beretta Jetfire 950. It's only a .25 but super small and rave reviews for reliability which isn't something often said about small and/or small calibur pistols. You can pick them up really cheap sometimes under $200. Alot of people make fun of this gun and the calibur but like they say a .25 you have with you is better than a .45 on your nightstand. My jetfire is so small and light I can carry it in basketball shorts.

[AlexDiesel]

Hit people in the face with your elbows. Classic Muay Thai technique, and you won't risk breaking your hand. Also I've found most bar/street fights take place in very close quarters where you may not have room to properly cock back your punches.

Knees are great too if you know how to properly hold a clinch.

Also, Jiu-Jitsu is borderline useless for street self defense. The absolutely last thing you ever want in a street/bar fight is to be on the ground. Too easy to get kicked in the head.

[MikeCF]

(04-09-2014 09:49 AM)AlexDiesel Wrote:  

Also, Jiu-Jitsu is borderline useless for street self defense. The absolutely last thing you ever want in a street/bar fight is to be on the ground. Too easy to get kicked in the head.

BJJ doesn't just teach fighting on the ground.

And BJJ teaches an escape from the head lock, which is the most common grappling move a person will encounter in the street.

I'll bet if I put you in a head lock you couldn't escape it. Well, if you learned at a legit BJJ school, you would be able to.

Unless you've trained seriously in a martial art for years and have been in actual street fights, please read rather than add to the confusion.

There's more nonsense out there about "street fighting" than there is about PUA.

Sometimes it's best to just sit back and learn from guys who have actual experience than to throw around a bunch of theories.

[MikeCF]

#1 Rule is situational awareness. That will avoid 90% of fights.

Does someone have a bad vibe? Get away form him. Is someone standing around and looking like he doesn't belong? He is looking for prey.

I leave before last call. Why? Because it's a bad situation. Too much negative energy and too many drunk guys.

#2 is not looking like a target.

Learn how to stand like a dominant man so you don't look like a victim:
http://dangerandplay.com/2014/03/17/how-...-language/
http://dangerandplay.com/2014/03/14/beco...inant-man/


Yeah, martial arts are good, but they are way down the list of things the average man needs to master.

First, learn how to analyze the situation you are in.

Where are the exists for the door? How many people are in the room? Any gangster looking people?

The Knockout Game is common. If you're a white and you see a corner full of blacks, don't be a sucker. (Not a race troll, but you can't talk self-defense without mentioning it.)

And when things look like they are going off, GET THE FUCK OUT. Looks like a bar fight might happen? Why watch? Go watch TV or YouTube.

Don't stand around and rubberneck. GET THE FUCK OUT.

That is the best advice on self-defense out there.

Be aware and avoid.

[K Galt]

I'm forever amused at the topic of martial arts whenever it comes up on any forum, anywhere on teh Interwebz. It somehow always devolves into some guys promoting one art form or dissing another.

Legit Martial Arts training is never useless.

Even if you go to a BJJ school that focuses 99% ground fighting, there are still things you learn training that you cannot get anywhere else. Same goes for the arts like Judo and Wrestling, which have almost zero striking, but they still have many positive benefits one gains from studious training.

How to breathe.

How to go above and beyond your exhaustion point.

Increasing your mental toughness.

Learning to deal with opponents who are bigger, smaller, stronger, faster and even similar to yourself.

Gaining confidence as you practice and develop skills.

Learning to read opponents body language.

How to move explosively, and how to conserve your energy when not engaged.

These are all things one learns training in any legit martial arts school (McDojo's that are in it for the money and don't really teach true martial arts are a whole 'nother thing).

When Mike states: Learn how to stand like a dominant man so you don't look like a victim:

Train long enough, and hard enough, you WILL attain a self-confidence that is not fake. You will not look like a victim by virtue of the fact that you've trained long enough and hard enough that you simply carry yourself differently.

You will subconsciously project a message with your body language and demeanor: "I train, and you might be able to take me out, but I'm not going down without fighting you with everything I've got."

[Giovonny]

There are many threads about this but..

(04-09-2014 07:40 AM)BostonBMW Wrote:  

In the face of this wanton aggression, you can defend either:

Physically

or

Using weapons

Or, you could run to a safer location like a crowded restaurant, hotel lobby, or busy intersection.

If you try to fight an experienced fighter, you will most likely lose.

If you pull a weapon on an experienced fighter, he will take it and use it against you.

Avoid physical combat at all costs. Better to have a bruised ego then a bruised brain.

(04-09-2014 07:40 AM)BostonBMW Wrote:  

what would be the best combination of self defense?

The best???

Pulling a gun and shooting him is effective but I don't know if its "the best"..?

Knives are dangerous because experienced guys will take them from you.

Martial arts are only effective if you have years of experience. You can't just take a few months of martial arts class and think you are gonna defend yourself from hardened criminals.

The "best" self defense is to..

#1) Avoid dangerous situations and dangerous people.

#2) Run 400 and 800 meter sprints.

If you can sprint a half a mile, you will out run most attackers and make it to a safe place.

If you stay and fight, without any fighting experience, good luck and God bless you.

******

If you want to learn how to fight.

Join a fighting gym.

I recommend boxing first.

[K Galt]

An encounter/situation may occur anywhere (on the street, at club) where you need to either defend yourself or members of your party. In the face of this wanton aggression, you can defend either:

Physically

or

Using weapons

Here's the thing. You pull out a weapon, the situation better damn well warrant it, because once you pull a weapon, you'd better be prepared to kill with it.

[berserk]

(04-09-2014 02:20 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

#1 Rule is situational awareness. That will avoid 90% of fights.

Does someone have a bad vibe? Get away form him. Is someone standing around and looking like he doesn't belong? He is looking for prey.

I leave before last call. Why? Because it's a bad situation. Too much negative energy and too many drunk guys.

#2 is not looking like a target.

Learn how to stand like a dominant man so you don't look like a victim:
http://dangerandplay.com/2014/03/17/how-...-language/
http://dangerandplay.com/2014/03/14/beco...inant-man/


Yeah, martial arts are good, but they are way down the list of things the average man needs to master.

First, learn how to analyze the situation you are in.

Where are the exists for the door? How many people are in the room? Any gangster looking people?

The Knockout Game is common. If you're a white and you see a corner full of blacks, don't be a sucker. (Not a race troll, but you can't talk self-defense without mentioning it.)

And when things look like they are going off, GET THE FUCK OUT. Looks like a bar fight might happen? Why watch? Go watch TV or YouTube.

Don't stand around and rubberneck. GET THE FUCK OUT.

That is the best advice on self-defense out there.

Be aware and avoid.

Great post, only quoted so that people will read again.

No 1. rule in self defense is don't get in a fight, period, and you very correctly point out, it is all about your attitude and the way you carry yourself. It certainly doesn't hurt to have some size and muscle. I've been in a couple of fights as a teen and younger adult, but none since then, and it isn't because I slink away with my tails between the legs either. Dominance and attitude is something very primal. A combination of many small factors which put together tells other people not to fuck with you. Master the art of the poker face too. Way too often I see guys getting emotional or even worse faking emotion, such as trying to put on the tough guy act or even worse, the submissive act. The only proper response is no emotional expression at all, don't reveal your hand. Be like Fedor before a fight:

[LaserBear]

Only fight if necessary and unavoidable.

I've trained kick boxing a bit, and it has served me well in unavoidable situations.

For ground game, Brazilian ju jitsu.

The rule of thumb for when to fight is similar for when to pull a gun for defense.
Don't throw a punch if you don't intend to beat them to the ground, get on top of them, and continue beating them till they stop moving. Then beat them a bit more to make sure.


If you're carrying a gun for safety, the rule is don't draw if you dont intend to aim, and don't aim if you don't intend to shoot, and don't shoot if you don't intend to hit the target.

Violence is a last ditch measure for self defense, not ego protection, and not displaying badassery.
But, if necessary, should be followed through with completely, otherwise you leave yourself open to retaliation.


If you don't trust yourself in a fight, train kick boxing, it will be great for your confidence and sparring is damn good fun. Train at a gym with people in it who fight competitively, mcdojos and mcgyms are only good for mcSkill that's really filling but totally worthless.

[LaserBear]

Only fight if necessary and unavoidable.

I've trained kick boxing a bit, and it has served me well in unavoidable situations.

For ground game, Brazilian ju jitsu.

The rule of thumb for when to fight is similar for when to pull a gun for defense.
Don't throw a punch if you don't intend to beat them to the ground, get on top of them, and continue beating them till they stop moving. Then beat them a bit more to make sure.


If you're carrying a gun for safety, the rule is don't draw if you dont intend to aim, and don't aim if you don't intend to shoot, and don't shoot if you don't intend to hit the target.

Violence is a last ditch measure for self defense, not ego protection, and not displaying badassery.
But, if necessary, should be followed through with completely, otherwise you leave yourself open to retaliation.


If you don't trust yourself in a fight, train kick boxing, it will be great for your confidence and sparring is damn good fun. Train at a gym with people in it who fight competitively, mcdojos and mcgyms are only good for mcSkill that's really filling but totally worthless.

[jamaicabound]

(04-09-2014 02:14 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(04-09-2014 09:49 AM)AlexDiesel Wrote:  

Also, Jiu-Jitsu is borderline useless for street self defense. The absolutely last thing you ever want in a street/bar fight is to be on the ground. Too easy to get kicked in the head.

BJJ doesn't just teach fighting on the ground.

And BJJ teaches an escape from the head lock, which is the most common grappling move a person will encounter in the street.

I'll bet if I put you in a head lock you couldn't escape it. Well, if you learned at a legit BJJ school, you would be able to.

Unless you've trained seriously in a martial art for years and have been in actual street fights, please read rather than add to the confusion.

There's more nonsense out there about "street fighting" than there is about PUA.

Sometimes it's best to just sit back and learn from guys who have actual experience than to throw around a bunch of theories.

i agree, people often knock wrestling and grappling but most street fights are unskilled drunk brawls either in spaces too confined to really box or where they turn into small short punches and a lot of wrestling. I think in a street fight wrestling and grappling is probably the most important skill, once you got someone on the ground you can pound them pretty easy. sure its not what a crowd watching a fight wants to see but are you really fighting to put on a show or to defend yourself and get out of a situation

[jamaicabound]

Just watched that video clip on the site someone posted about how to stand like a man. Another perfect example of why not to start bar fights. Because drunk fucks do stupid shit. you could be fighting someone one on one and of course there's always the possibility a friend of theirs jumps in but even worse there's always the possibility some drunk fuck who has nothing to do with the situation at all comes over and rounhouses you or boots you in the face when your on top of the guy for no other reason than they are drunk and wanna hit someone or wanna be in the action.

[el mechanico]

Learn how to wrestle before anything else. Once you know how to to use your balance everyone will look like a walking clown to you.

More to come but..Start there first. Maybe it's branded as BKJ or Krav or whatever I know nothing about that crap so go wrestle and the rest will fall in line.

[Afarang]

best thing would prob be to run away.

But as for picking wrestling/boxing or whatever, it really just depends on the other guy. If the person your fighting is very good wrestler, all your wrestling skills go out the window. Now if hes a better boxer, you would be better off wrestling and not boxing.

In the ideal situation you would be competent in both a stand up discipline and a ground one to an okay level.

[el mechanico]

(04-09-2014 06:14 PM)Afarang Wrote:  

best thing would prob be to run away.

But as for picking wrestling/boxing or whatever, it really just depends on the other guy. If the person your fighting is very good wrestler, all your wrestling skills go out the window. Now if hes a better boxer, you would be better off wrestling and not boxing.

In the ideal situation you would be competent in both a stand up discipline and a ground one to an okay level.

Never run away you will lose a piece of yourself you'll never get back and if you are a good wrestler anyones boxing skillz are worth a box of ass.

Although. You may have to take a couple hits. If that worries you? Stay home and date safely online.

[Giovonny]

(04-09-2014 06:26 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

Never run away you will lose a piece of yourself you'll never get back

You could also "lose a piece of yourself" if you stay, like a piece of flesh or an eye ball.

Or, your life.

(04-09-2014 06:26 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

if you are a good wrestler anyones boxing skillz are worth a box of ass.

A good wrestler can beat "anyone's" boxing skills? So, a good high school wrestler will beat a pro boxer? Of course not.

Doesn't it depend on how tough, skilled, athletic, experienced, and in shape the wrestler is vs how tough, skilled, athletic, experienced, and in shape the boxer is..?

Maybe, you wrestled in high school. Maybe, I fought in the golden gloves.

We can't predict who will win..

There are many other factors besides the fighting style.

Size and strength is a factor.

Stamina is a factor.

skill level is a factor.

Age is a factor.

Athleticism is a factor.

Ferociousness is a factor.

You can't just say wrestling is better then boxing. It all depends on the 2 men who are fighting. Sometimes the wrestler wins and sometimes the boxer wins. The guy that can do BOTH will have an advantage over the guy who can do only one.

[Afarang]

(04-09-2014 06:26 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

(04-09-2014 06:14 PM)Afarang Wrote:  

best thing would prob be to run away.

But as for picking wrestling/boxing or whatever, it really just depends on the other guy. If the person your fighting is very good wrestler, all your wrestling skills go out the window. Now if hes a better boxer, you would be better off wrestling and not boxing.

In the ideal situation you would be competent in both a stand up discipline and a ground one to an okay level.

Never run away you will lose a piece of yourself you'll never get back and if you are a good wrestler anyones boxing skillz are worth a box of ass.

Although. You may have to take a couple hits. If that worries you? Stay home and date safely online.

I am very highly skilled in stand up, over 6 years, and I have know some wrestling/bjj. But i dont have much of an ego. I would never start a fight, even if I got punched first and I knew if I backed down the fight wouldn't happen I would. If I was forced into a fight then yeah I will fight/ help my friends out

But I dont like to have any kind of negative energy in my body or mind, nore is my ego that big, so I would much rather walk away. Just seems trivial and ego related to fight.

Once again If I had no other choice or I felt like if I dont do something I could get hurt quite bad, yes i will do something. And I would also jump in to aid someone (most likely break up the fight)

[el mechanico]

The fact you are not worried about "flesh" is the first thing.

About Boxers.. Only good if you cant size them up and move in close enough for them not to get full swing in. And then guess what?? They're fucked because they cocked back and lost balance on a wrestler. Game over lets see how good tat works on your back while getting your face punched up.

Stamina.. More so for " stand up fighters" wrestlers are fast and efficient

Size? Yeah bigger guys with no skillz fall hard and fast. 2 seconds and out. Big guys who know how to fight will tread lightly against a wrestler. Believe.

Overall I think a boxer will lose unless he's a pro and can beat all types off ass but.. A regular dude trying to box in a barfight or on the street against someone who go to the floor first? not so much.

[el mechanico]

(04-09-2014 06:50 PM)Afarang Wrote:  

(04-09-2014 06:26 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

(04-09-2014 06:14 PM)Afarang Wrote:  

best thing would prob be to run away.

But as for picking wrestling/boxing or whatever, it really just depends on the other guy. If the person your fighting is very good wrestler, all your wrestling skills go out the window. Now if hes a better boxer, you would be better off wrestling and not boxing.

In the ideal situation you would be competent in both a stand up discipline and a ground one to an okay level.

Never run away you will lose a piece of yourself you'll never get back and if you are a good wrestler anyones boxing skillz are worth a box of ass.

Although. You may have to take a couple hits. If that worries you? Stay home and date safely online.

I am very highly skilled in stand up, over 6 years, and I have know some wrestling/bjj. But i dont have much of an ego. I would never start a fight, even if I got punched first and I knew if I backed down the fight wouldn't happen I would. If I was forced into a fight then yeah I will fight/ help my friends out

But I dont like to have any kind of negative energy in my body or mind, nore is my ego that big, so I would much rather walk away. Just seems trivial and ego related to fight.

Once again If I had no other choice or I felt like if I dont do something I could get hurt quite bad, yes i will do something. And I would also jump in to aid someone (most likely break up the fight)

Sorry that makes no sense at all to me.

[Afarang]

its okay, I didn't expect it to

[el mechanico]

All my love to my westside guys but if you read the Florida stuff here or on the news..

We do NOT give a flying fuck who we hurt or why. You have to be this way when things get ugly regardless or else you will end up the victim interviewed.

Now. If you can talk like a human and anyone fucks with your shit here you can fuck them up beyond recognition and get high fives from the sheriffs. This is Florida. The law here has massive respect for anyone productive.

[Moto]

There's not much here I feel compelled to argue with. I'd just add, that you should start doing pushups on your knuckles on concrete. That will toughen up and harden your knuckles big time, as well as strengthen your wrists. It will also teach you proper wrist alignment. Only punch, and do pushups on, the knuckles connected to your index and middle finger. It's called the ram's head in Kung Fu.

Boxing is great, except for boxers may break their wrist in a real fight because they wrap their wrists. Practice punching hard, heavy objects. Most punching bags and martial arts pads are little/no use. My tradition has special objects, hard and heavy and in varying sizes and densities, that we've designed for this. I won't say how they're made, but get creative. In a few months, if you do the above, a human head will be a light and soft thing to punch indeed.

As others have said, it will take serious time and dedication to use martial arts and not get your ass handed to you or worse. But choosing a good place is vital, and they are hard to find. Having wrestled many years of my life and being the best in my high school at my weight, I can say wrestling and being able to grapple and fight on the ground is not worthless by any means. Just a couple months ago I was rough-housing and playing with another Kung Fu teacher (whom I envy b/c he has a successful business teaching it) and used wrestling, instinctively, to disable him while still standing up (not in a way that hurt him of course). But, of course, real fights are rarely one on one, and I would have been vulnerable and had to let go of him if his friend came along and it was a real fight.

So, clearly I am not bashing grappling as I myself use it at times and I'm a Kung Fu guy (my particular style is 90% percussion with just a little bit of Chinese grappling).

For a quick n dirty way to be at least reasonable at hand-to-hand combat, I'd suggest boxing at a gym with competitive fighters. Just make sure your wrists and knuckles get strengthened in the ways mentioned above. If you want to really become great and dedicate time, of course I'd suggest a good Kung Fu school, or maybe Kenpo or Okinowan Karate. This does not mean an impressive looking place with uniforms, high tuition, testing costs, and many students. Don't be impressed by claims of Shaolin Temple lineage or the fact that they're teaching 'authentic' forms just like people are learning in China. If they look like they are training as a matter of life or death at all times, that's good. If not, don't waste your time there. Selling people false confidence and good feelings is generally better business than providing true war art.

Rather than carry a knife, learn to disarm someone who has one. Again, not something learned over-night. I personally wouldn't suggest carrying one. Be a weapon instead.

[Sherman]

It's a good idea to avoid a fight if you are in another country. Only fight if your life is in danger. The laws are different and some countries don't recognize much of a right to self-defense. In Mexico, you could be in jail for some time even if you legitimately defended yourself. And in other countries, the locals can assume you are the trouble maker and quickly gang up on you. If you absolutely have to use force then do so and then run like hell to get out of there before anyone notices.

I haven't had any problems keeping out of trouble. I don't use drugs, stay away from crappy areas, avoid strangers who come up to me on the street, and other common sense moves. I also have been practicing Karate for many years, have a black belt, and work out every week, including hitting bags at full force with my fists and doing knuckle push ups. If I need them, my fists will be able to hit bony surfaces at full force without causing undo discomfort. Guns are illegal in most countries so I just learn to live without one.