[fortysix]

I am seeing a lot of threads on social media with people declaring their support of Russia's exclusion from the G8 on the basis of their presence in the Crimea.

In all seriousness, can somebody please logically answer the following question for me:

Why is Russia excluded from the G8 for peacefully entering a pro-Russian republic of a constitutionally illegitimate government, with the consent as well as majority support of the republic's government and population, when other other members of the G8 have supported invasions into the nations of Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, which all occurred without the support of the respective nation's governments or population, and all led to massive loss of life and money?

I apologize if this is a loaded question, please correct me if I am wrong. I would really like to start a serious discussion on this topic, and I would very much like to hear the opinions and arguments of people supporting Russia's exclusion, or supporting the Western governments of the G8.

As a side note, I did not put this in the Ukraine conflict sub-folder because I see this as a discussion of international politics in general, not just Ukraine, and I also want to get the opinion of people who may not necessarily be following the conflict in Ukraine.

[jimukr104]

Your speaking to the choir. You should post that same question on social media sites. Add that Crimea belonged to Russia and was illegally given away by the Supreme Soviet leader who was an ethnic Ukrainian.
Remember social media is being used by nationalists and neo cons for their agenda..consider the sources.
Putins speech exposed the west's hypocrisy and NO one in Western politics really has a very good counter argument.

[TonySandos]

The American public at large may fall for fear tactics surrounding the Russian Federation by how it's drummed up in the news. I was listening to NPR the other day and even they surprisingly held position on treating Russia's actions with disapproval, although subtle.

[Captain Gh]

Like that Doctor who died in the film I robot (I could look it up, but I guess I'm more lazy than I thought) that my friend is the right question!! We're being played I think!!

For someone like me who doesn't know a whole lot about politics, the general media has not given me 1 good reason on why Ukraine accepting the offer of Russia is worse than joining the EU.

[j r]

Why does this have to be about choosing sides? Can't I believe that the United States was wrong to invade Iraq and Russia was wrong to invade Crimea?

[jimukr104]

(03-25-2014 09:25 PM)j r Wrote:  

Why does this have to be about choosing sides? Can't I believe that the United States was wrong to invade Iraq and Russia was wrong to invade Crimea?

Sure....considering both seem to be gas/oil related..its opposite sides of the same coin.

[fortysix]

(03-25-2014 10:31 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

(03-25-2014 09:25 PM)j r Wrote:  

Why does this have to be about choosing sides? Can't I believe that the United States was wrong to invade Iraq and Russia was wrong to invade Crimea?

Sure....considering both seem to be gas/oil related..its opposite sides of the same coin.

I am not saying whether you can or can't -- nobody is asking you to chose sides. What I am saying, though, is that the international community at large, G8, should not be chosing sides -- they are supposed to maintain the prosperity of the world economy. Here, though, they are doing just that ; a group created to further economic prosperity is excluding a major player of the global economy.

[Virtus]

Let me, a native born Russian Ukrainian break it down easy for you. Putin stole 50+ billion himself. Yanukovich stole 12+. Oligarchs stole 200+. When Crimea was taken economic sanctions were expected by his shrewd kgb team. So oligarchs were warned and repatriated 100 billion. Now with western banking off limits he told em to pay taxes on repatriated money. Which he alone will get. Which is a private affair for him.in addition Russians are sick of his ass stealing shit just as much as Ukrainians were sick of yanuk. So a revolution is not far long. But producing a strong leader propaganda never failed a Russian tsar. So to be anti putin is to be anti Russian. Same playbook as the cia

[Big Nilla]

Cali, how about some specifics/sources/evidence on these #'s (Putin $50+ billion and Yanukovich's $12+ billion)?

[rover]

Do people even care about G7/8 any more? - G20 seems to be more effective at solving real economic problems and has better representation. G8 is basically an old boys club, and as an informal group they can invite or kick out anyone as they wish. It would be strange if they applied sanctions but then went to the G8 Summit hosted by Russia in June.

[spalex]

Its simple:

the tree hugging, wine sipping, dick sucking, hippy idiots on your social media list have no idea what they are talking about.


I bet if they still hadn't had a referendum in Crimea, there would be hippies protesting outside all Russian embassies in every major city. Holding up signs saying "get out of Crimea!" "peace for Crimea!".

We all seen similar crap on the internet.

What was the result of that referendum again? like 78% of the locals wanted to be part of Russia anyway.

It just goes to show that these people that pretend to care, have no fucking clue what they are talking about. I would be surprised if half of them could point out Ukraine on a map.

[jimukr104]

Funny thing about the G7 is it made sense to include Russia and make it the G8.
If you look it is basically the ALLIES vs AXIS powers that fought WW2.
That being said they invited Russia(1998-1999) kind of like throwing a bone for GOOD behavior. Yeltsin was pretty much a Clinton kiss asser.
Australia wanted to kick Russia from g20, BUT was firmly told that it doesn't belong to them!

My overall point is social media is propaganda today for many causes.
Most people don't necessarily understand all the details of their support or lack of.
An example was I heard a few bars in Texas was boycotting Russian beer(if i was there i would ONLY order Russian beer).A lot of that has spread though social media.
I thought it was amusing considering the independent nation of Texas was formed VERY similarly to Crimea.Texas was filled of Anglo's who wanted independence from Mexico. The US sent volunteers to help and then the official military. As we all know Texas was annexed later..based on Anglo ethnicity(may not have even been the majority).

[Virtus]

(03-26-2014 12:44 AM)Big Nilla Wrote:  

Cali, how about some specifics/sources/evidence on these #'s (Putin $50+ billion and Yanukovich's $12+ billion)?

http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest...net-worth/

http://www.the-american-interest.com/blo...-billions/

There is a wealth of info in Russian, but these look about right

[Blunt]

@cali About Putin specifically, post it in Russian then. Enough of us speak it here.

The source you posted about him looks comparable to TMZ (celebrity gossip).

[j r]

Does this mean that you guys believe that Putin is not corrupt and that he and his cronies are making themselves rich? Or is that you just accept a bit of corruption as the price for strong leadership?

[Blunt]

@jr What exactly are you referring to?

Equating Putin with 'his cronies' is not accurate. No one is disputing that Putin's rule has enriched a select few. That is how he maintains his power, by keeping oligarchs out of politics in exchange for allowing them to conduct business.

As for Putin stealing himself, this is an allegation frequently made but I have never seen any facts to back this up. I certainly don't think that he is an angel, however I think he is way more interested in political power and his own narcissistic view of his legacy than stealing money.

Is Putin a fair deal for the Russians? Certainly better than Yeltsin who was weak and allowed these oligarchs to come into existence in the first place. The west supported Yeltsin because he was weak and allowed Western enterprises to come and take advantage of privatization, along with the oligarchs. If it wasn't for Yeltsin then making deals with the oligarchs wouldn't be the necessary reality that is Russia today.

[Stun]

Supporting Russia in the UN: Cuba, North Korea, Syria, Venezuela, Zimbabwe, and Belarus.

Enough said.

[Blunt]

@Sugar You forgot a few (Armenia, Bolivia, Nicaragua and Sudan), but yes, the countries in that list are of the small minority that have nothing to fear from a lost of investment or favor with the West.

Even China can only abstain out of fear of Western retribution.

[evilhei]

Also all those countries are getting cash from Russia, maybe not Zimbabwe and Sudan but all others

[Virtus]

(03-27-2014 02:08 AM)Blunt Wrote:  

@cali About Putin specifically, post it in Russian then. Enough of us speak it here.

The source you posted about him looks comparable to TMZ (celebrity gossip).

Here is a tiny bit. google is your friend

[Mekorig]

(03-27-2014 01:29 PM)Blunt Wrote:  

@Sugar You forgot a few (Armenia, Bolivia, Nicaragua and Sudan), but yes, the countries in that list are of the small minority that have nothing to fear from a lost of investment or favor with the West.

Even China can only abstain out of fear of Western retribution.

I think China is abstaining for reasons other than the fear of "western retribution".

Argentina, while an almost nobody in the international arena, is keeping (at least) a coherent international posture, similar to their postions about Kosovo, and Malvinas/Falklands.

[jimukr104]

Quote:

"Even China can only abstain out of fear of Western retribution."

Actually the political party that the present Chinese gov't belongs to urged the gov't to support Russia..but the leadership smartly refused to do so.
Supporting Crimean referendum would open up a can a worms about the Tibet and Taiwan issue.
I am pretty sure India has also abstained considering their ass kissing rhetoric(their military industries are petty integrated)
I think all of the BRICS basically are looking the other way..regardless of personal views. Kind of like how NATO/EU countries stick together.

[jimukr104]

Interesting..Israel didn't show up to vote.As well as 2 Eurasian Union hopefuls.

[Big Nilla]

Yeah, Israel likes to play the innocent bystander.

[Mage]

(03-28-2014 08:07 PM)Big Nilla Wrote:  

Yeah, Israel likes to play the innocent bystander.

Israel just plays at higher level and leave this show-busyness to goyim.