[Ajiaco]

It all depends on where you are on the spectrum. A few years ago, nothing less than pure vitriol was gonna remove all the feminist programming from my head. I went overboard for a while I think, just wallowing in resentment, not just at bitchy women, but at the government, corporate America, pop culture, you name it. It was a phase. It was necessary to baptize myself in anger over all the lies I got fed growing up.

After a while though, all the stuff you hate ceases to matter, unless you get worked up about it in theory. All the things I hate about society in general don't really affect me anymore, and a new vista of freedom has opened up where I can start from scratch and ignore what I deem ridiculous. Writing about the stuff I hate feels much less necessary now, but there was a time when nothing less would do. I mean, remember all the angry and loud music you listened to as a teenager? I used to love Eminem, and Marilyn Manson, and now most of that stuff just sounds like noise. But if you had told me that at the time...I would have called you an old man.

So it is with the stages of acceptance in realizing that lots of American women suck. Some of us are just figuring this out and mad about the time we wasted under old girl power paradigms, some of us use it to our advantage in getting laid all the time, some of us got burned by the divorce courts, some of us never needed to complain in the first place and don't know what all the fuss is about. I can't say I ever get angry thinking about how annoying feminists are and how a men's rights movement is necessary anymore, but there was definitely a time when I did, and I can't begrudge anyone else for being where I was.

[Dueyz]

Perhaps there shouldn't be such hostilty towards feminism or fat American women. But both parties should realize their limited options in a world where men are becoming educated enough to realize that neither of you are necessary for procreation or happiness. Don't get pissed! Get real!

[hydrogonian]

Damn, this is a crazy thread.

You can't just "get over" the effects of feminism. You can psychologically block out all of the effects that it has on your life, but that's just denial / acceptance: depending on how you look at it. But it doesn't mean that the harmful effects don't apply to you.

That's because even if you choose never to get married, feminism shapes the personalities of the people who you will interact with for the rest of your life. Both men and women. Also, the greater political arena, also beholden to feminism, surely affects your life as a single man. Unless you decide to be a hermit, you will always be subject to the effects of feminism, for better or worse. There is no real "moving on" in a sense that you've become more mature, as the poster before the last posits. If you truly don't want to confront it, you can only choose to live what is, basically, extreme denial or subservience.

[Ajiaco]

Hey Hydro,

I don't disagree with you in some ways, but your comments are a little vague. I agree that feminism is around, and it probably can't be avoided 100 percent, but you can certainly take steps to drastically limit the sway it has on your life. Game itself is something that will help keep feminist nonsense at bay. In the age of the internet and easy travel, avoiding feminism isn't really that hard if you make an effort, but I agree that if you just expect to live a normal life and hope it goes away that's not going to work.

But the original thread was about anger, and in my own experience, getting my life to a point where feminism simply doesn't have that much sway over my life has been a big factor in decreasing my anger towards it. I suppose it's also figuring out a way around it too, because despite marriage laws rigged against men, and all the other big bad feminist stuff that is not doing society any favors, theres still nobody putting a gun to your head and forcing you to think like Gloria Steinem. You have options, and you can pursue them without giving a hoot what a feminist thinks. I'm sure they wouldn't enjoy us shooting the breeze in this forum, for instance.

[kerouac]

I would just like to point out my experience, because I hang out with a lot of foreigners as well as Americans, to say that the problem with American girls and the feminism that they preach/espouse is that it's all theoretical.

American girls like the ideals of feminism only when its to their benefit, while European girls live feminism fully.

This is why a lot of guys get annoyed with feminism in this country. I can't begin to describe how annoying it is to hear a college girl who has read up on some feminist literature begin to use words like "forced sex" and some other shit that she has absolutely no experience with. Feminists in the US are all about looking at the female situation through the eyes of a victim. European girls, in my experience at least, look at things more proactively. The European girl will think, "ok, if I want to be equal, I will act as an equal", while the American girl will only whine whenever she is not being treated equal. It's the difference between talking the talk and walking the walk.

[hydrogonian]

(03-09-2011 08:07 AM)Ajiaco Wrote:  

Hey Hydro,

I don't disagree with you in some ways, but your comments are a little vague. I agree that feminism is around, and it probably can't be avoided 100 percent, but you can certainly take steps to drastically limit the sway it has on your life. Game itself is something that will help keep feminist nonsense at bay. In the age of the internet and easy travel, avoiding feminism isn't really that hard if you make an effort, but I agree that if you just expect to live a normal life and hope it goes away that's not going to work.

But the original thread was about anger, and in my own experience, getting my life to a point where feminism simply doesn't have that much sway over my life has been a big factor in decreasing my anger towards it. I suppose it's also figuring out a way around it too, because despite marriage laws rigged against men, and all the other big bad feminist stuff that is not doing society any favors, theres still nobody putting a gun to your head and forcing you to think like Gloria Steinem. You have options, and you can pursue them without giving a hoot what a feminist thinks. I'm sure they wouldn't enjoy us shooting the breeze in this forum, for instance.

yeah, my comments are vague because I've gone into it on other threads and don't want to get into a deep debate here. I just wanted to introduce a general concept. You can pursue your other options until you decide to either get married or have a kid. Once you do one or the other, by choice or by accident, then you are more deeply affected. Also, actions that occurred a long time ago, like women entering the workforce, affect your quality of life in a very significant and negative way today. Ignoring it helps, but its a negative impact on your life nonetheless.

I agree its not good to be angry, but not at the cost of not caring about your position as a man in society, and how your action or in-action might affect the position of all of the men to follow you. The feminists aren't staying inactive and nonchalant about their respective position.

I disagree that game insulates you from feminism. It combats it, as far as you getting sex is concerned. But in my experience and a lot of other guys experience, it draws more feminist anger toward you. That's true of effective men, in all areas of life. Not that that's a big deal, especially when you learn to deal with and deflect it. But, for sure, I'm more of a target for random feminists as a man with a modicum of game. Men with no game get socially approved by some feminists, but at the same time sexually ignored by them. Men that draw feminist anger also tend to get laid more. However, in my experience, its mostly the sexual reject feminists that care about how men approach women.

[gringoed]

WTF is this thread??? I used to think this forum was to help us get pussy and stuff. Y'all crazy, smoke some weed.

[Dueyz]

I've been as guilty of supporting this as any one. Never been with a feminist woman (nor would I ever), but I have hooked up with a few fat chicks. Most of them knew the deal, but a couple actually wanted to keep me long term. I ALWAYS thought to myself; "are you serious?"

Thousands of years ago, fishermen would bring their catch to the market for sale. There was a weight system that was used for all, that determined how much money you got for what you put on the scale. 'Fair value'.

Modern American women have developed an attitude that dismisses 'fair value'. Their hopes, dreams, and fairytales determine what they want, but they lack recognition of what they bring to the scale. And the few that do recognize, feel a sense of entitlement inspite.

Now it's time to blast the American men. We allowed this to develop directly, and indirectly. Maybe you don't cater to these women personally, but you have friends/brothers/co-workers who do. Have you ever done or said anything to empower these people, or have you passively watched? It begins and ends with our choices.

I can't say much about the feminists because I've never given one the time of day. But the epidimic of severely overweight women (people) who truly believe they're entitled to the same men as the women that take care of themselves is becoming alarming!

Guys...if she won't stop shovelling shit into her face, and she won't get her fat ass up and exercise, stop giving her the money for the weight she didn't bring to the scale!

[Excelsior]

I still wonder if its feminism in and of itself that's the real cause of complaints from (mostly American) guys.

While I was reading the comments on one of Kay Hymowitz’s "Where are the Good Men?" articles, I noticed more mention of foreign women than I’d expected.

Here’s an example of a comment I saw:

Quote:

Tony Hines

I can’t say how it happened but this is comming from a guy who has been all over the world.

The USA is the only place I have ever been where women behave the way they do toward sex and men in general. Here in the USA most women see men as an obstacle to getting what they want and they seem to truly enjoy demascualting and destroying anything that is male.

Every other place I have been women have been much more interested in playing and being friends with men. Just for the fun of it or for the relationships that come from it.

Here sex is a weapon and in every other nation I have been to is was something that people do.

Take a trip to Quebec City, France, Indonesia or any of a thousand destinations before you judge what I just wrote.

Notice the nations the guy mentions-Indonesia, known as an expat destination and definitely a developing country with fewer "empowered"(in the american sense of the term) women but…France? Quebec(Canada)? I see it here on this forum to. We speak pretty well of Aussie, Swedish, Norwegian, French, and Canadian girls(or, at the very least, we seem to agree on their general superiority to american women). I've heard dudes go on about the quality of educated, upper class, working women in places like the Philippines (women who, with their education/career aspirations, meet the original tenets of feminism) and other countries. And what about eastern European girls? From what I can tell, many of those women are university educated and have careers. All of them in some way adhere to core tenets of feminism.

The trend I’m seeing leads me to believe that generalized feminism may not be the main issue irking men in the US. Sure, they tend to mention feminism in general when citing their concerns, but then a whole bunch of guys speak glowingly about foreign women and mention countries like Japan, Korea, Sweden, Norway, France, Canada, etc, as destinations where men can do better relationship wise.

Japan and Korea have some of the most educated and career focused women on Earth thanks to their rigorous education systems. Same with Singapore, another often noted destination. And yet, we love Japanese women and it seems to be generally agreed that their femininity is highly attractive.

Sweden and Norway are among the most egalitarian societies on the planet-Scandinavia is practically a feminist utopia as far as the legal system and the cultural mores go. Canada is…well, Canada. Feminism is a force in all of these countries and, in some, you can reasonably claim it is a bigger force than it is here in the US.

And yet, feminism or not, American men still want to go to these places after having visited and experienced a clear difference in the way they are treated there and at home. It’d be one thing if they were only mentioning developing nations where women simply didn’t have the same opportunities, but they’re talking about nations where women are arguably more "empowered" and independent than they are here.

The comment I quoted hints at this (as does Kerouac's post above), but I posit that feminism in general is not the issue. Rather, I think there are specific American cultural trends that are creating concerns amongst men. Feminism isn't the main roadblock-American feminism is.

The problems men are having with women may be more of a symptom indicating larger socio-cultural issues as opposed to being the primary result of feminism writ large.
Clearly, in other contexts, men can live with feminism, even in its most extreme forms(Scandinavia) and still get along fine with the women. But here we’ve got all of these crazy side effects(which we talk about here all the time).
So what specifically is so different about Americans that they end up arguing and complaining so much about it relative to everyone else?

[Screwston]

Can someone answer this. Do foreign girls act like bitches with attitudes like 95% of the ones in America? This is getting out of hand

[Excelsior]

(03-13-2011 02:59 AM)houston Wrote:  

Can someone answer this. Do foreign girls act like bitches with attitudes like 95% of the ones in America? This is getting out of hand

From what I've read, not in the majority of cases. Some situations(argentina, for example) do involve girls who have annoying attitudes in the eyes of many guys, but by and large it would appear that American women are the most entitled on Earth and thus the most likely to give out harsh attitudes, even when they are less than ideal physically.

This doesn't apply to all of them(a small number of truly good american girls do exist), but it seems a generally solid rule of thumb.

[Dueyz]

(03-13-2011 02:59 AM)houston Wrote:  

Can someone answer this. Do foreign girls act like bitches with attitudes like 95% of the ones in America? This is getting out of hand

I can't speak for all foreign women. I've been to 13 other countires (a few more than 12 times), and I've never encountered women like American women. I wonder if these dudes on here defending American chicks have any legitimate experience. You can't go to England 4 or 5 times and think your experince represents a large group. Some foreign chicks may act poorly. There are so many places I haven't been, I have to be honest. And in some of these countries, yes there are some of the same qualities you'd look to avoid here. Keep in mind; America is a very influential culture in recent history. Some foreign nations can have a large population of 'Westernized' behavior.

In large, I've found the women of other countries to be much warmer, and MUCH more sensual. Much less overweight women; much more women who take care of their man; much fewer women who try to act like the Alpha. I've even read posts on here about guys that talk about western European chicks being more feminist than American women. I'm not saying their wrong, but I've spent a lot of time over many years over there, and I did not come to the same conclusion.

In short; travel some if you can. Draw your own conclusions. I think you will find that you eventually raise an eyebrow to the women here, and that Roosh is right.....you've got a much better opportunity considering foreign women.

Currently in America, we're doing several things better than anyone else ever has. Currently in America, we're also doing several things worse than anyone else ever has. Raising women to be good women is not our strong suit right now.

[oldnemesis]

(03-13-2011 02:59 AM)houston Wrote:  

Can someone answer this. Do foreign girls act like bitches with attitudes like 95% of the ones in America?

Not in Russia; she'd risk getting beaten. Yes, physically. Yes, it still happens.

[Moma]

(03-15-2011 03:49 AM)Dueyz Wrote:  

I can't speak for all foreign women. I've been to 13 other countires (a few more than 12 times), and I've never encountered women like American women. I wonder if these dudes on here defending American chicks have any legitimate experience. You can't go to England 4 or 5 times and think your experince represents a large group. Some foreign chicks may act poorly. There are so many places I haven't been, I have to be honest. And in some of these countries, yes there are some of the same qualities you'd look to avoid here. Keep in mind; America is a very influential culture in recent history. Some foreign nations can have a large population of 'Westernized' behavior.

In large, I've found the women of other countries to be much warmer, and MUCH more sensual. Much less overweight women; much more women who take care of their man; much fewer women who try to act like the Alpha. I've even read posts on here about guys that talk about western European chicks being more feminist than American women. I'm not saying their wrong, but I've spent a lot of time over many years over there, and I did not come to the same conclusion.

In short; travel some if you can. Draw your own conclusions. I think you will find that you eventually raise an eyebrow to the women here, and that Roosh is right.....you've got a much better opportunity considering foreign women.

Currently in America, we're doing several things better than anyone else ever has. Currently in America, we're also doing several things worse than anyone else ever has. Raising women to be good women is not our strong suit right now.

Good strong point. There are a lot of good things in America. For instance, I see a lot of pretty women in America. I haven't really dated extensively in the States so hopefully I don't become discontented when I move there because you guys make it seem like it's not necessary a bed of roses.

However, I am a foreigner and I think my foreign appeal will make me standout as American women like exotic stuff.

For instance, some of my African friends slaughter lizards alive in the U.S for fun...

[blurb]

It's kind of funny how former communist nations with supposedly "feminist" policies aimed at "liberating" women actually turned out to be places with the most feminine women on the planet when compared to America.

[Vicious]

As a relative newcomer I've also wondered over the hostility to feminism on this forum. To me, feminism in its intended form is a good thing. It's what brings equality with women paying for every second drink and being down to fuck (I assume that's what DTF mean) just like any guy.

Feminism is NOT about a woman running her mouth about how she wants to be respected and treated right and then when the bill arrives she's expecting you to pick it up. Feminism is not what troll-like hairy butches scream out at the top of their lungs about reducing sexism by banning scantily-clad commercials.

In general I think the concept of feminism has been misunderstood by many on this forum. It seems people think of the extremists when the word is mentioned.

[stoney]

relevant

[Vicious]

stoney's pic is a good example of what I'm talking about 2 posts up. This isn't really feminism but just a delusional sense of entitlement.

[Geronimo]

(06-10-2011 09:25 AM)stoney Wrote:  

relevant

Obvious troll.

[Riker]

Can someone summarize this thread for me? Seems interesting but its really long....

Sorry for being lazy.

[Excelsior]

(06-11-2011 11:16 PM)Riker Wrote:  

Can someone summarize this thread for me? Seems interesting but its really long....

Sorry for being lazy.

American women are generally less sensual, not as warm, and generally not quite as strong relationship partners as women from most other parts of the world on average due to entitlement, etc. American feminism and obesity are generally to blame for this. This is why men are hostile to these things.