[Cincinnatus]

You can call America a 'scam' all you want, it's still easy as hell to get ahead in this country if you know how to play the game.

In my hometown dudes working mediocre jobs bitch constantly about the lack of opportunity, how they're stuck making $10 an hour, etc. I tell 'em to save up a couple thousand dollars, move to North Dakota for a year or two, stack $$$ and develop skills they can use worldwide. Nothing but excuses from most of them.

The system may be stacked but it's not impenetrable. Develop a valuable skillset, save some money, parlay it into favorable investments. Rinse and repeat. Start a business, develop a list of clients, then contract out the work to other people. Sell the business if it gets big enough and the price is right.

If you're not comfortable taking risks, perhaps America is not the place for you. Move to Europe and enjoy a nearly-guaranteed middle-class existence. But this country still greatly rewards those of us with initiative and balls.

If there's a nation on earth where it's easier to make big money and get ahead, let me know. I'm all ears.

[worldwidetraveler]

(03-05-2014 02:14 PM)nomadicdude Wrote:  

The rich in America have gotten richer because of inane tax laws that tax wages higher than dividends or capital gains. There are other reasons of course such as the destruction of labor unions in the US over the last 30 years which allowed the top classes to consolidate more income and power, but it generally is just tax policy. That is the exact reason people like Mitt Romney accumulated so much wealth.

And it depends on what you mean by "standard of living". The average European has a much higher standard of living if you are talking about security i.e. affordable healthcare and education, secure employment and retirement, and time off to actually take a vacation. If by standard of living you instead mean accumulating possessions and having the biggest house, car, net worth, then yes some Americans have a higher standard of living than Euros.

And your silver spoon argument is just one example. Hell, I was born to immigrant parents and have had years where I'm in the top 5% of income earners. That doesn't negate the statistics that show that freaking socialist Sweden has higher income mobility than the US.

The guy that started WhatsApp is an immigrant living off of welfare at one point and now a billionaire. According to you it isn't possible yet he did it. Taxing more will just keep others from achieving wealth. It won't hurt the people that are already wealthy.

You are better off, in the long term, accepting responsibility for your failures instead of blaming someone else. You can easily change if you take control. Blaming others takes that control away.

[Sp5]

This post is the flip side of all the Ayn Rand Cult posts.

Social mobility in America is alive and well, at least if you are above-average intelligence. If you're average or below, you are somewhat fucked now. Those high-wage manufacturing and service jobs requiring only simple skills are gone.

Get a degree, get to work. There are many pathways to success. I am happy to give advice for a specific plan based on your situation if you PM me.

[nomadicdude]

@cardguy:

Not trying to argue but I use to think that exact thing: Africa is shit, etc. America is no. 1 cause ppl want to move here, etc. But that is a really simplistic argument. We live in a short span of human history. When I was growing up China was a pure shit third world country, now it is a feared economic superpower. In the city I grew up in there were loads of immigrants from South Korea and Taiwan because those countries had really poor economies back in the 60's, 70's, even 80's. Now, where you would rather be economically? There's a good argument that South Korea and Taiwan have brighter economic futures than America. So my point is that shit changes. We just look at it through a really short term prism but shit changes and there is no saying that Africa or India or Cuba won't be super rich places in 20 years or whatever and Americans will look up to them like they do with China now.

[Bill]

There will always be disadvantaged people doesn´t matter in which society you live in. You can see it as a scam and still try your best to get ahead. But many scams begin with telling how you can become rich the easy way. That is what happens all the time. Reminds me of the sidekick of Tim Ferris who became a workaholic by working like a slave for him and got burnt out in the process.

[deuce]

I was going to post a long-winded reply explaining why I believe America is the "least worst" country to start a business or improve yourself. Then I decided instead to go for a run, then study for a certification that will improve my marketability, followed by going out to dinner with people involved in my industry to drum up leads on new work opportunities.

Others will spend the time posting sob stories. The choice is up to you.

[cardguy]

Yeah - but China is pretty shit as well.

Quote:

The average annual household income in China, converted to dollars, was $10,220, compared with $84,300 in the United States.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/moneybuilder...olds-debt/

The government of China is suppressing their people's living standards.

So - that more jobs can be created. The people of China are kept artificially poor and are kept reasonable happy by being guaranteed jobs.

Pretty fucked up if you ask me.

And Japan is fucked up as well. Turns out everything we thought we knew about Japan 'taking over the world' (back in the 80's) was a lie.

http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-22791-...#pid454209

[nomadicdude]

@ cardguy: hah, that is a really typical American attitude but in a lot of respect what China is going right now is amazing. Sure it is not at the level of the US but its growth rates and infrastructure are pretty unbelievable. I spent two months going across China once and it is ridiculous how good the infrastructure is compared to America. It definitely is the place of the future whereas America may not be.

And Japan is still a really rich place. If anything it's biggest problem is that it does not allow enough immigration in order to support the safety net for all the older people retiring.

[cardguy]

Well - I am worried about China. Alot of investors think there is a giant property/infrastructure bubble in China which will burst and cause a financial crisis of 2008 proportions. But worse. It is something that I think is a real possibility.

China has alot of ghost towns. Just like Ireland before its property crash.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19049254

[runninutebball]

I really wonder sometimes how much these America whiners have traveled. CardGuy's analysis is simplistic but it's also powerful. Do you know what the dowry price of a Yemeni - American girl is? $50-75k easy. This is dramatically higher than her peers for only one reason, she can petition her husband for an immigrant visa! Why do Cubans set sail on makeshift rafts that the crew from Gilligan's Island wouldn't touch risking death? Why was I offered $10k by a Russian girl in Baltimore to marry her?

Did you read that there was a 500% increase in Americans who renounced their citizenship? Do you know the actual yearly figure that increase represents? Less than ONE THOUSAND. That's out of a nation of more than THREE HUNDRED MILLION.

The demise of America is greatly exaggerated on this board. America spends more on its military than the next 10 combined. It is the only country with the ability to sustainably project power anywhere in the world. It is still the number one economy. American culture has been so absorbed by the rest of the world they don't even consider it American anymore. It is fucking irritating to listen to people in Egypt bad mouth America while wearing blue jeans and superman t-shirt, smoking a Marlboro cigarette, while posting to Twitter or Facebook from their iPhone using the WiFi at the neighborhood McDonald's. Oh and the Facebook post was about how excited they are too go see Capt. America: The Winter Soldier when it is released worldwide by Hollywood.

The day America is truly in trouble is the day it enacts exit visa requirements on its citizens (Russia anyone? ). Until then, maybe dial down the America hysteria. If you want to leave forever, explore the world, sow some wild oats in foreign pussy, then go right ahead. Just do me one favor and don't go running to the US government for protection if things don't work out for you in your new poosey paradise.

Rant over

[Suits]

(03-05-2014 03:47 PM)nomadicdude Wrote:  

@ cardguy: hah, that is a really typical American attitude but in a lot of respect what China is going right now is amazing. Sure it is not at the level of the US but its growth rates and infrastructure are pretty unbelievable. I spent two months going across China once and it is ridiculous how good the infrastructure is compared to America. It definitely is the place of the future whereas America may not be.

And Japan is still a really rich place. If anything it's biggest problem is that it does not allow enough immigration in order to support the safety net for all the older people retiring.

I appreciate your willingness to share your thoughts on this matter, but you aren't considering enough factors for your opinion to have validity.

Chinese infrastructure is impressive in some areas and downright disappointing in others. Also, it is essential, considering the nature of Chinese demographics.

However, high speed trail railways don't equal ease of access when starting a business or attempting to gain an education.

Beijing University is harder for Chinese to get into than Harvard is for Americans to get into.

There just aren't enough universities in China for the average person to consider a post-secondary education and even when the lucky ones who can graduate, living at home with parents is essentially, because an average wage for an entry level university graduate is $200/month in cities where your rent is going be a lot higher than that if you don't live on a park bench.

It isn't easy for the Chinese to travel abroad. Americans can go just about anywhere if they have the cash.

High school is free in America. In China, you've got to compete for the top tier high schools, because simply graduating doesn't guarantee much at all.

I could go on, but it should be obvious already that the USA offers much more opportunity at a base level than China, regardless of infrastructure.


Why do I prefer to live in China? It's the best way for me to maximize all the advantages of being born and growing up in North America.

For Chinese, they'd give their liver to have grown up in the ol' USA, despite its flaws.

Starting a business legally in China is a very complicated process. In the US, you don't even need to register in a lot of cases to operated as a sole proprietorship.

[nomadicdude]

@ runnninutebball: I am not denying that people want to move to America. I am saying why does that matter? That is like saying on a personal level you should not try to improve yourself by working out or getting more education or making more money because as an American you are already "better off" than 90% of people on Earth. See my point. I don't really see how what you are saying is relevant to the problems in America. You should not ignore the bigtime problems in America just because some dude from the Punjab wants to move here to open a gas station.

And I've traveled a ton for what it's worth.

[runninutebball]

I'm not the one claiming the whole culture is a scam. You haven't offered any solid evidence that America is a bad place to live. You haven't shown that upward mobility had become impossible in America.

I can see from my own family that upward, and downward, mobility is possible. The upwardly mobile member of my extended family works 16 hour days, reads like all the time, is an entrepreneur,. The downward? Drugs, laziness, inability to stick with a job, uses books as door stops. Me? I'm in between extremes.

As for travels, my experience reinforced that America is a pretty great place to live. If yours was different, good for you

[WestCoast]

I called this already:
http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-33493-...#pid670710

Poverty mindset.

I used to live in a car, pieces of my story are scattered around here.

My family was below the poverty line for several years.

I respect money. I followed the opposite of what OP is doing. I didn't blame the rich. I simply ignored the advice of the poor

Today?

No I am not an 8 figure man. But if I got fired today I would never have to work again in many countries (if I felt like it).

I don't make excuses, I take the best course of action.

Can "everyone" make it up the socio economic curve? No.

However if you continue to think like the Op you will never be rich because you already gave up "it isn't possible". Well guess what man I am living fucking proof.

Here's the trick.

Don't expect to get money for nothing. You need to be someone of value to make money.

Or you can just complain and quit. You're on the wrong path. Steer the ship back on course and stop listening to your broke ass professors. I know they are pouring this venom down your throat. "Nod and smile" and ignore... Find a better mentor.

I was in the bottom 20% of America. If I was in the bottom 20% in any other country I would be completely fucked.

[Onto]

(03-05-2014 01:33 PM)nomadicdude Wrote:  

Look at it this way. You basically have no chance of moving up in society unless you are born with a silver spoon. Statistics back this up.

As much as I hate how feminisim has destroyed America. This country is the number one place in the world where "anyone", regardless of race, gender, or money can not only do very well but become a billionaire on their own merit.

The only hurdle is yourself. However, if you want a free ride instead you can have that too. Here are some highlights of the freebies.

Free healthcare for children under 21 in most states

Free public education and Free college education for the poor in most states.

Welfare system that is so generous that many on it choose not to get a job.

Social Security, Disabilitly, Medicare/Medicaid.

Cost of living can be dirt cheap in tons of places and you can live anywhere in the country that you want.

The OP needs to be specific on how America keeps a poor person down and won't let him rise up to all that he can be.

[kosko]

America is the best AND worst place to get rich and ahead. Period.

America is fuked up and has a lot of issues but no place can you hustle with as much as EASE 'murrica.

In Canada being complacent is king, and taking risks is seldom. We have a feverish virus of mediocracy here. When I go to the States I get a boner from all the rush of activity, it's infectious. Everybody is hustling down there, everybody is chasing something. Yes it can be a scam but it's that delusion is what keeps American productivity high, they are addicted to it on a engrained cultural level.

I can't bail on the west until I try my hand at trying to sink or swim in America. I've been seeing that Canada keeps me stagnant because I don't have that rush of activity and hustling around me. When I'm in that atmosphere I want to win.

I dog America a lot, but what is present there is undeniable. Trying to hustle abroad with American fever can get you rich, broke, or killed, all maybe in the same day. No other place gives you the ability to hustle with a framework of some what fair play. Yes the elite and rich are pillaging everything but then GO AND TAKE IT BACK. Go start hosting high end clients in bars like McQueen, open a market or derive that caters to those rich slobs, go manage their money and rape then with fees, do whatever you can to get your share back then bail. America gives you the ability to do that! With EASE. No place else gives that to you.

America can be the worst of all of that. But you gotta have that mindset of not being on that other side. In Canada it's to costly to take risks and a big safety net keeps people from crashing. In America shit is way cheaper to start off on, and knowing you'll be broke and homeless if you fail is fuel enough to not want to be on the other side of that coin. The trend now is to be rich or poor, the middle class is in be past tense so choose which side you want to be on...

[nomadicdude]

@ Onto: recent studies have shown that a baby born in the US has a lower chance of moving up the economic ladder than in most European countries including "socialist" places like Sweden. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/har...d=all&_r=0

[Hotwheels]

Your country isn't holding you down. Your mentality is.

[nomadicdude]

@runninn: read this http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/har...d=all&_r=0

Also consider that a middle class person in America to worry about going bankruptcy because of tuition and healthcare. They can be fired at any time for any reason. They have little chance of saving for retirement. They never can take a vacation.

Compare that to a similarly situated person in Europe and don't you see the point? I realize Americans have been brainwashed into all thinking they are just one step away from becoming the next Bill Gates but that is pure BS. You judge a society but how it treats the mass of its people and America is pretty pathetic on that point compared to basically any other rich country on Earth.

[nomadicdude]

@Hotwheels: where do I say that America is holding me down? I am more educated than at least 95% of people and I make a higher income than 90% of people. I never said American held me down. I said I don't like the way things are going and that it is a scam for the vast majority of people. The American Dream has become a fraud.

[InternationPlayboy]

I posted something on Facebook about how we go to work to buy cars to sit in traffic to get us there and houses that we leave vacant most of the time to work to afford it. Someone posted, "that sounds right to me." It's kind of sorry how people just not only accept it, but think it's right.

[nomadicdude]

@InternationPlayboy: it's a very American thing to accept. Like we've been brainwashed. Most other rich countries are commercialized and materialistic as well but not to the extreme of America. We really do have an extreme capitalistic society.

[Onto]

(03-05-2014 05:35 PM)nomadicdude Wrote:  

@ Onto: recent studies have shown that a baby born in the US has a lower chance of moving up the economic ladder than in most European countries including "socialist" places like Sweden. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/har...d=all&_r=0

Geeeezus, I didn't realize the NY Times published an article saying so. Well, it must be true then. LOL

If you can't make it in America, you can't make it anywhere.

[kosko]

(03-05-2014 05:36 PM)Hotwheels Wrote:  

Your country isn't holding you down. Your mentality is.

Your not Canadian. It's hard for you to comment on this. I've lived in both countries, and both my sisters went to school down there.

The vibe is different in the States. There isn't a mentality and culture of aiming up that does not exist here in Canada; we have one of the lowest productivity rates in the OECD, the stats back it up. Canada does not like to take risks and try hard, we are notorious underachivers. This ain't me blaming Canada for where am at, because where I am at is still far ahead of many (two tries at starting a business, and I'm just in school in a good program... I haven't done shit) but even now, I am not happy where am at and I want more.

I can see the ceiling already... In Canada you've made it as a adviser/consultant or manager in Government or Crown... That's 1% here in Canada. It's hard to explain unless you have lived here and been indoctrinated in our culture.

@Moma would likely echo what I'm saying since he is State-side right now. The rush to compete down there is real, it isn't some make believe shit.

[Akula]

"We're not going to sit here...and listen to you badmouth...the United States of America...Gentlemen!!!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...8ETQ1RYa_Q