[Teedub]

The thing is, wouldn't Ukraine actually be better off in the EU? Look at Poland. Their infrastructure etc is way ahead of Ukraine now.

For all the people like me in Western Europe who don't like the EU, for the EE countries, it's been pretty bloody good for them.

[Roosh]

^ Poland and Ukraine aren't quite equals, with many different economic and cultural factors that would prevent a clean side-by-side comparison. My long-term stays in both countries show that both people have different motivations when it comes to work, with Poles more industrious and desirous of Western capitalist cheese and "success." They're not as serious about keeping their traditional values and ready to adopt what the West throws at them.

That said, I do think the EU would prevent corruption on the scale we've seen in Ukraine so far, but implement other changes such as austerity which would cause significant hardship, at least in the short term (5-10 years). Also, EU corruption is a serious problem as well (publicly estimated at $160 billion a year, which means it's likely much higher):

http://www.voanews.com/content/eu-reels-...52955.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26014387

[jimukr104]

(02-23-2014 12:59 PM)buja Wrote:  

Quote:

How is it fair for a group of protestors (some of who are armed) to gather together and demand that a democratcially elected government leave office?

That is mob rule

Quote:

how we will put our interests against the majority. Only 45% supported the protests..

What is "democracy" if nothing more than armed "mob rule" of the majority?

Just because 51% of a particular population votes a certain way does NOT mean that is fair, just, or equitable.

Government schools have trained us that "democracy" (i.e. holding elections for politicians) is the ultimate in liberty and justice for all.

It is nothing of the sort. Mostly it is manufactured consent and an excuse for the true "mob rule" (i.e. governments of armed bureaucrats who act with impunity).

Anyone who opposes the government mob rule is a "terrorist" or "counterrevolutionary".



It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds. - Samuel Adams, Father of the American Revolution

"As democracy is perfected, the office of the President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be occupied by a downright fool and complete narcissistic moron."
----H.L. Mencken, The Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920

Agreed..our founding fathers were against democracy.democracy is despotism by majority.

[jimukr104]

(02-23-2014 01:10 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

^ Poland and Ukraine aren't quite equals, with many different economic and cultural factors that would prevent a clean side-by-side comparison. My long-term stays in both countries show that both people have different motivations when it comes to work, with Poles more industrious and desirous of Western capitalist cheese and "success." They're not as serious about keeping their traditional values and ready to adopt what the West throws at them.

That said, I do think the EU would prevent corruption on the scale we've seen in Ukraine so far, but implement other changes such as austerity which would cause significant hardship, at least in the short term (5-10 years). Also, EU corruption is a serious problem as well (publicly estimated at $160 million a year, which means it's likely much higher):

http://www.voanews.com/content/eu-reels-...52955.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26014387

Bulgaria, Italy , Romania are good examples. They are very corrupt. Poles were always westernized a bit. Warsaw pact countries and a USSR soviet Republic like Ukraine are 2 different animals. FSU slavs are corrupt to the core. Heck even after they immigrate 100 years later they are known for bureaucratic corruption. A society where everyone is for themselves and have deep mistrust don't excel in the West. The mistrust now will only grow.
Another thing to realize many of those EU countries that joined the EU don't have strong economies..the per capital income includes the workers who went overseas to work. Much more tolerable in a small country.

[Hencredible Casanova]

(02-23-2014 12:28 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

Let me put it this way: if the Washington Post was owned by the US Government, what part of that article you shared would be changed to better represent US interests in a way that wouldn't cause readers to suspect they're being deceived? Probably nothing. Just like how RT articles are Russian propaganda, using the Post or Times to get your analysis ensures you will get a very biased view of what's going on. Check out earlier links in this thread for sources that are more in the middle and closer to the reality.

I appreciate the analysis but I think we just have different ways of looking at news information. I didn't think of the Wapo article as a propaganda piece. I felt the article's message was "despite the transformation that has taken place in Kiev, other parts of Ukraine are by no means on board with the protesters."

I think the focus on Crimea shed many significant facts about that region and why it's going to be important as developments take place elsewhere in Ukraine. I didn't get the sense that Russia was subtly being cast as villainous, but that the mentioning of Russian interests is necessary when discussing Crimea. As the article pointed out, Crimea is a majority ethnic Russian population, geographically very close to Russia, has a Russian military base, and belonged to Russia up until 1954.

Whether or not the writer of the article - or the publication - happens to serve American interests is not particularly important to me given the message I gleaned from the article was generally broad and factual. I doubt many people regardless of their POV would disagree that Crimea's population is largely unsympathetic to the protesters in Kiev and that it will have an important role to play for where Ukraine goes from here.

In fact, I welcome the US perspective on the events in Ukraine given that the US is generally the most dominant and influential global player in world events. So, it's always good to know what the pov from that angle is because the US is definitely going HAM when it comes to pursuing its interests.

Also, I've seen posters all throughout this thread making the same points as the Wapo article about how Crimea will be different from what has transpired in Kiev.

But I don't get all my news from one source at all. I just thought the Wapo article set some good context about Crimea and how that region is distinct from the changes taking place in the west.

I also think Yanuk's being cast as a victim is ridiculous. The man is clearly a shrewd politician who overplayed his hand, drawing the ire of both Russia (which deeply distrusts him) and the West alike. He masterfully played both of them against each other while not carrying out either of their interests as they had hoped, enriching himself and his cronies all along.

I'd also be suspicious of reports that he's tried to leave the country. He still has strong power base in the east of the country and he might have a future in where Ukraine goes from here. Hard to know what exactly is going on behind the scenes or what his relationship to Russia is at the moment.

I think by and large this was a Ukrainian domestic issue, inevitable considering the country's history (independence from USSR, Orange Revolution, etc) but of course outsiders from all fronts supported their interests to the best of their ability.

[Akula]

(02-23-2014 01:04 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

The thing is, wouldn't Ukraine actually be better off in the EU? Look at Poland. Their infrastructure etc is way ahead of Ukraine now.

For all the people like me in Western Europe who don't like the EU, for the EE countries, it's been pretty bloody good for them.

I think the EU is sort of out of business of giving infrastructure freebies these days and is not willing to put any more money into many of these countries (like Romania and Bulgaria where they saw a lot of it go down the drain - all the 'green energy' projects there are on hold or cancelled for now, as an example). Ukraine would be more like these countries I'm sure and jimukr's points are quite valid. Remember when this thing started blowing up how the EU's deal was way worse (less money) and slower to come to fruition than what Russia immediately put on the table.

And from a 'game' perspective the men sure wouldn't be better off nor would the inevitable spread of many forms of Feminist values. But I'm not saying that for awhile at least the situation wouldn't get a little better - i.e. there would certainly be some EU money allotted to Ukraine, and some corporate governance and business standards would be made more 'fair' (which the oligarchs would hate of course).

Finally, in my view the UK is a bit of a mess too mate - kinda like the US where it's going to be a long, slow decline. You've built up London around filthy lucre from corrupt Arab, Russian, African and other rich investors but the rest of the country doesn't seem to be doing so well from what i've read. I know there are exceptions but I thought that most of the UK guys were happy to get the hell out? Post-crisis jobs have sorta dried up for the average guy + you've got massive labor competition on the low and even high end scale with immigrants (both legal and illegal). And in many ways the growing 'police state' aspects of the UK are pretty alarming.

[Courage Reborn]

Here's the latest RU slant;

http://rt.com/news/freed-tymoshenko-ukraine-maidan-288/

[rudebwoy]

I am praying Russia wins this battle, I don't want to see pussy paradise Ukraine join the EU.

[FilipSRB]

(02-23-2014 01:36 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

I think by and large this was a Ukrainian domestic issue, inevitable considering the country's history (independence from USSR, Orange Revolution, etc) but of course outsiders from all fronts supported their interests to the best of their ability.

As a citizen of a place that, in many ways shares a similar fucked up fate due to its location and strategic importance, trust me when I say that nothing comes to the streets as purely domestic issue. Nothing.

[DaveR]

(02-23-2014 09:26 AM)DirectDanger Wrote:  

He's right in geopolitical terms, but geopolitics was not the only factor in play during this crisis. The larger issues were:

national budget deficit
cultural divide
oligarchs' conflicts
conflicting trade agreements
cross-border families, historical connections, and visa policy issues (read Jimukr's points)

[jimukr104]

For now on we need to distinguish the Warsaw pact countries from the USSR countries. The 3 Baltic countries Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania.. although annexed as part of USSR... really mentally never was the same as other FSU countries. They were more influenced by Sweden and the West.
As of today.. not ONE real USSR country has made any strides that would make them compatible to EU or even Western society. Russia actually is the most sane of all of them. Western Ukraine does have a history of being Westernized a bit.. but the rest aren't Western at all. For those of you who think Russia is bad...talk to someone from the REAL FSU(includes Eastern Ukrainians) they are mostly fucked in the head.
America really should support them joining Putin's trade block..they are actually more dangerous when no one is controlling them.
West Ukraine vs East Ukraine
Armenia vs Azerbaijan
Georgia(Stalin) vs West.

[Hencredible Casanova]

(02-23-2014 02:16 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

I am praying Russia wins this battle, I don't want to see pussy paradise Ukraine join the EU.

Was Ukraine ever a pussy paradise though? I heard it takes some time to work some magic on the women there. Also, was it ever good for black men? Highly doubtful.

Another thing, if Poland is still pretty good I don't see no reason why Ukraine should change for the worse. Maybe if income levels rose among ordinary people in Kiev those chicks wouldn't be so prone to scamming male tourists.

[Mekorig]

(02-23-2014 02:16 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

I am praying Russia wins this battle, I don't want to see pussy paradise Ukraine join the EU.

Is not Poland still considered a "pussy paradise" by the forum, yet part of the EU?

I know some people of the forum thinks that if Ukraine goes in the same tune that the EU all will be lost, but as someone who is descendant from Ukranians and still have family there (both in the east and west) i prefer to see Ukraine in the EU influence sphere than in Russia`s.

[DaveR]

(02-23-2014 02:16 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

I am praying Russia wins this battle, I don't want to see pussy paradise Ukraine join the EU.

After talking to a few girls from Kiev who I've known since around 2007, I feel that Kiev's pussy paradise potential has been permanently damaged. It's very sad.

I'm not sure how it will affect Western Ukraine. Personally, that area of the country and its culture doesn't interest me at all.

Odessa will probably still be a paradise. It may even improve, depending on how psychotic the new nationalist government turns out to be (visa issues for Russians, lost trade, etc.).

[jimukr104]

(02-23-2014 03:01 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(02-23-2014 02:16 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

I am praying Russia wins this battle, I don't want to see pussy paradise Ukraine join the EU.

Was Ukraine ever a pussy paradise though? I heard it takes some time to work some magic on the women there. Also, was it ever good for black men though? Highly doubtful.

Another thing, if Poland is still pretty good I don't see no reason why Ukraine should change for the worse. Maybe if income levels rose among ordinary people in Kiev those chicks wouldn't be so prone to scamming male tourists.

Bad very bad... because it means not only don't they need money but their own men will also be good enough.
You have to understand that the Kieven Rus Slav prefers their own men. Russkaya Dusha? You don't have it ..it works against you for the great majority.
They are a xenophobic and racist culture... integration will not change it and in fact might make it worst since they will have to deal with more immigrants themselves.
Even in NYC and other large ethnic Russky areas they are mentally closed minded. Btw Ukrainians being more peasant stock than Russians are even worst.
It got worst for foreigners when income level went up and more foreigners visited. Why?Because foreigners stopped being exotic for many so it was just an economic advantage.The change was almost seen immediately in 2005.
As the women get richer..they expect a mate to be even richer.If women has a Nissan guy better have a BMW. Its rocks ,paper, scissors in the FSU.
As mentioned Poles were always more westernized and pro American-UK.Also sweeter. Weekend at Bernie game is still the FSU rule.

[jimukr104]

(02-23-2014 03:12 PM)DaveR Wrote:  

(02-23-2014 02:16 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

I am praying Russia wins this battle, I don't want to see pussy paradise Ukraine join the EU.

After talking to a few girls from Kiev who I've known since around 2007, I feel that Kiev's pussy paradise potential has been permanently damaged. It's very sad.

I'm not sure how it will affect Western Ukraine. Personally, that area of the country and its culture doesn't interest me at all.

Odessa will probably still be a paradise. It may even improve, depending on how psychotic the new nationalist government turns out to be (visa issues for Russians, lost trade, etc.).

Odessa hasn't been a paradise for last 15 years lol. The women are the most snobbish in the FSU ..as Roosh himself found out.
On one hand they might not change much.. but on the other hand foreigners impress them the least amount.odessa is about money and power.. and we tend to have very little of that compared to them.

@Mekorig Rvf might lynch you for saying that.
you can't compare a FSU mentality to Warsaw mentality. Ukrainians joining the EU would be the worst thing for a pussy paradise. I have seen the changes from 2000- 2014 and I can pretty much say its been downhill for Pussy Paradise. What has done it? Westernization , capital and an abundance of foreigners.
I am not even worried so much about feminists and shit like that..... i think it will be more of loss "status" .In FSU its all about status and foreigners have been losing status every year since 1998.
I can say this with certainty because even my wife and her friends as they were richer than average also had more demands of level of status man had to have.FSU chicks generally date up and get more greedy the more money they have. Remember they view men as provider material..that is regardless of their own income level.
In other words the California drivers license wil lbe even less valuable.
Maybe being a local yourself you wil lbe able to blend in? so for you it won't be bad.But for most guys only way to make it good is if their lives are full of uncertainty. uncertainty can scare them. Marriage agencies became popular after the ruble crashed. Then when hrv got stable.. they felt safe again.

[Mike5055]

I wonder how it will change if the country ends up defaulting? The risk keeps going up.

[Lika]

Everything is at stake now in Ukraine. The "right sector", which is not pro EU, defended the population, structured the Maidan movement and chased the corrupt power.

I Hope that the Ukrainian people will be aware enough to choose a president neither pro-Russian nor pro-EU, but simply pro-Ukrainian and independent. Anything is possible ...

http://rozum.info/news/2014-02-07-342

[rastignac]

Parents are taking children out to Yanukovich's palace and taking selfies. It is orderly. No looting. People feel safe now that the government is gone. That tells me all I need to know about the legitimacy of that government and the quality of the people.

Live free or die. That has to be your thinking if you stand your ground and refuse to run from snipers.

Here is hopefully last speech of an Apparatchik in Ukraine. Note all the Lenin statues going and it is very clear what this is about, generational change. "We want to live a normal life." as they say. Biggest events in Post-Soviet history since the early nineties.

I am ecstatic for Ukraine that this guy has been toppled and look forward to seeing how this difficult Revolution progresses, on the ground.

Pussy? I don't see the sky falling anytime soon. The women will stay hot and the game will stay very specific. Should be fun.

[durangotang]

I'd like to recommend an anonymous blog that has made for excellent reading regarding the situation in Ukraine:

THE VINEYARD OF THE SAKER

The comments are fantastic as well.

I'd start out with this post, as the author breaks down some of who is and why he holds his perspectives:

Saker rant: why I believe that Russia should not directly intervene in the Ukrainian conflict

From the above post:

"I come from a Russian family which has served Russia and the Orthodox Czar for centuries and which has fought many battles to free what is now called "the Ukraine" from Western invaders, form the Papist Teutonic Knights, the Masonic generals of Napoleon, the Polish Jesuits, the Swedes of Charles XII and, of course, the Germans while my wife is a direct descended of the Varangian Rurikides who founded the Kievan Rus'. I assure you that we are acutely aware that the Ukraine is the historical heart of Russia. However, I do not confuse the historical Ukraine, the "small Russia" in the Greek sense of "central" or "core" Russia, and the disgusting wannabe fake-Ukrainian state which has emerged in 1991 by the will of a few CPSU apparatchiks turned "nationalist" overnight. That modern Ukraine is built on nothing but a pure and vicious hatred of everything Russian, on a completely fabricated historiography and it is run by a typical Mafia don (Yanukovich) a ape-like boxer (Klichko), a rat-like lawyer (Iatseniuk), a typical Galician Nazi (Tsiagnibok) and a typical Soviet oligarch bitch (Timoshenko). To think that this scum seriously claims the heritage of Iaroslav The Wise makes me sick. Modern Ukraine is not the "heart of Russia" - it is the prototypical anti-Russia!"

...

"I have spent most of my life in categorical opposition to the power in the Kremlin. I volunteered to participate in what was then called "anti-Soviet activities" which included sending banned books into the Soviet Union (authors like Solzhenitsyn, Solonevich, Tikhomirov, Borodin, Ogurtsov and others) and sending money and help to families of political prisoners incarcerated in the Soviet Gulags. We even managed to successfully sent help inside the Gulag a few times. I was also a participant in various activities to support the underground "Catacomb Church" in Russia (on the problem of the persecuted True Orthodox Church in the Soviet Union and nowadays please read this). All this got me blacklisted by the Soviet Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the KGB and a few other agencies as a "antisovetchik" (anti-Soviet activist). I even once got a direct death threat from a real KGB officer who acted without authorization (only the Politburo could take the decision to kill somebody abroad), illegally and out of frustration and who got in a heap of trouble with his own bosses after that. But still, even though this was not a "real real" threat, it felt real enough to me at the time (I must have been 19-20 years old). I am writing all this to explain and illustrate the fact that I am hardly a knee-jerk automatic supporter of Russia, Russian policies or whoever is in the Kremlin. And yet, to my immense amazement, I find myself not only in almost complete agreement with what Vladimir Putin did since he came to power, I actually have to admit to myself that I deeply admire this ex-"enemy" of mine (him being in the KGB and me being an anti-Soviet activist, we were on two opposing sides of the Russian ideological barricades for many years). For me, who used to hate Brezhnev, Eltsin, Chernenko, Shevarnadze, Grachev, Kozyrev, Gromyko and all the other Soviet and Russian leaders which sat in the Kremlin during most of my life, I now enjoy a really bizarre and new feeling: I truly like and admire folks like Lavrov, Shoigu, Ivanov or, especially, Rogozin, and I think that they are a fantastic team who is finally succeeding in pulling Russia out of the constant state of deep crisis which it has lived under for over 100 years now."

[gonzoman925]

Ah back to the russky-US proxy wars.

It saddens me deeply because ukrainian girls were always much more accessible than russian ones.

Joining the EU may reduce overt corruption in favour of systematised ones, but feminism will spread like wildfire and destroy all the traditionalism that lays in that land.

10 years of austerity will fuck up everything, and lack of protection for nascent domestic industries will ensure a quick death from then.

opening up ukraine will mean more pay4sex punters from the UK, which will quickly heighten xenophobic attitudes to non ukranian males.

i dont see a good outcome of any of this.

And every single damn time a country has been split, it gets worse.

especially when shitheads are in charge

[Teedub]

I think people are overestimating this feminism/progressivism thing. Like others have said, Poland, the Baltics, Czech Republic etc aren't all swimming in entitled snarky land whales, and they've been in the EU for ages.

So it would take decades for Ukraine to become anywhere close to America/Oz/Canada/UK

[DaveR]

(02-23-2014 03:19 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

Odessa hasn't been a paradise for last 15 years lol. The women are the most snobbish in the FSU ..as Roosh himself found out.
On one hand they might not change much.. but on the other hand foreigners impress them the least amount.odessa is about money and power.. and we tend to have very little of that compared to them.

Snobbishness isn't an issue for me... I'm used to it from St. Petersburg and Milan. Actually, I prefer it that way because it makes identifying what kind of girl you're talking to much quicker. On the other hand, I haven't been chasing English speakers for a long time and I don't use the 'foreigner' card a lot.

[jimukr104]

(02-23-2014 03:50 PM)gonzoman925 Wrote:  

Ah back to the russky-US proxy wars.

It saddens me deeply because ukrainian girls were always much more accessible than russian ones.

Joining the EU may reduce overt corruption in favour of systematised ones, but feminism will spread like wildfire and destroy all the traditionalism that lays in that land.

10 years of austerity will fuck up everything, and lack of protection for nascent domestic industries will ensure a quick death from then.

opening up ukraine will mean more pay4sex punters from the UK, which will quickly heighten xenophobic attitudes to non ukranian males.

i dont see a good outcome of any of this.

And every single damn time a country has been split, it gets worse.

especially when shitheads are in charge

Feminism will rise but I don't really think it be a big issue.. not in next 20 years anyway. Many of the newer EU countries haven't converted to feminism and Ukraine is a patriarchal society. The Western Ukrainians are worst.
What will happen is the newly feminist women will leave to other countries to escape the cavemen that populate UA.
but hold your horses.. we are talking What if?
I am sure Rag will agree with me on this. This isn't UA joining the UA. That is at least 15 years away, most likely more. Took that long for Warsaw pact countries to join and ukriane has much bigger issues.I am not even convinced they will ever be invited. Turkey technically might even have first crack.
I am convinced that ukraine loses it value to Germany if incomes rises to much in Ukraine.
They want cheap labor so they can extract resources cheaply. A country full of natural resources and high labor costs is a country that becomes a rust belt. Germany certainly isn't investing so they will be able to compete with them, certainly Poland as well. Its all about the natural resources.
Xenophobia is already there lol. Can it really be worst than how guys get asked directly if they "are sex tourists?" now!

[DaveR]

(02-23-2014 03:29 PM)rastignac Wrote:  

I am ecstatic for Ukraine that this guy has been toppled and look forward to seeing how this difficult Revolution progresses, on the ground.

Believe me, the battle has only just begun. We're now seeing the next episode of the Yulia show with its all of its old stars - Turchynov, Yatseniuk, Firtash and friends. They're oligarchs just as much as the PoR are.

Euromaidan will need to shift the vote to UDAR or form a new party to make this successful.