[Frank]

I've been going out around once a week (some weeks twice, some zero) for the past 2-3 months. I still haven't gotten a lay.

I've improved a lot since, and I can see that I now have a better grasp at applying game concepts.

In general, I am very dominant and don't really waste any time. I can see the girls are into me, but things never go anywhere. Lately, nearly all of the girls I hit it off with had a bf.

Some examples:

- I walk up to two girls and touch their backs as I say hello. "With that thing on your lips, do you have any trouble when shaving your mustache?" She takes a while to process this, and then both start laughing. Some fun banter. Turns out the 2nd girl knows a girl I was speaking to, and I grab her hand and get her to say hello.

I would've gone back to them, but my "wing" was being lame, and instead go to another bar and try to wing for him. So, we're sitting at the bar. I open two girls, not very receptive, I go upstairs. I spot a girl coming our way. Pixie haircut. Grab her hand, pull her towards me, say hey. A few seconds of inane bullshit, then I say "my friend here thinks you're cute, I'll leave you two...play nice."

- I go to that same bar some days later. I see a girl who I think is the same short haired chick. Open, turns out it isn't. She's certain it's not her. So I say "I know I'm handsome, but are you gonna keep staring at me, or are you gonna buy me a drink?" She half smiles, tests, I stay put, and asks what I want. Cool conversation.

I see a cute girl coming, I pull her towards me, say hello, I like your piercing, and I'll see you in a bit. I keep talking to short hair. Later on, some other girls come in, and I steal one of their beanies, and give it back later on. This is easier because I'm already talking to a cute girl. Short hair goes "So you're always flirting with the whole bar or what?" I play it off pretty casually with a "hmm, dunno...sometimes? most times...! (big grin)"

- At a club, a few weeks ago. There's Dragon Ball Z playing on a screen (WTF), and I spot a chick watching. Make a comment about that. Not sure how I escalate, but within seconds, I am standing only about two inches from her. I'm touching her hips when we're talking. She fake-protests that I can't do that and as I say "yeah, but I am", she says "but it's ok...you're funny." Later on, she says I (or she?) has to leave. I say ok and open another girl who was about two feet from us. Later on, I find her again, dancing in the same area I am. I tease her, and I think she disappears. Another girl I was with earlier sees me, lights up, and I drink half her drink from her straw and she's like "heyy!!" and at this point, I'm dead tired, so I go home.

- This Thursday and Friday...I approached a lot. Most of the girls had boyfriends. All I ended up with was bummed cigarettes, the tits of a (fat!) 37 y/o rubbed against me as she told me about her kids and ugly necklace, and my number on a fatty's phone. I liked fatty's friend, and when I was going through fatty's stuff to steal cigarettes, I found her phone, and put my number there. I have no idea why I did that.

Thursday was chill, and I only made 1 approach. Few people at the bar. I feel like having a cigarette, so I go say hey to the 10-15 people who walked in. Very politely ask the guys for one (most of them were on the side closest to me), they ask the group, and then point towards a girl on the far end. "Ah...and turns out it's the most attractive one of the group" (in retrospect, risky move, but it was met with smiles). So, I talk with the girl for a bit. Then leave. Later on, she comes towards the bar (it's an L-shape and I'm on the other side), and I walk towards her and cut her convo with the bar maid. Both are kinda shocked, but the barmaid is cool with me and leaves quickly, and the girl smiles at me. We talk for 10-15 minutes. I try to set up a date and get her number, but she says it'd make her feel guilty, and she blabs on for a bit. We talk some more, and then she says she has to leave, and goes back to her friends.

Many of the interactions on Friday were like that, except that sometimes I cut them short and went to talk to other girls.

Anyway, all of the examples are to give an idea of the kind of game I run, and with that, it'd be easier to give some suggestions on how you think I should adjust. I'm not a total dweeb, but it is obvious that I am still a rookie who's making rookie mistakes.

While I'm skinny, I'm tall and OK-looking, and the obnoxious-playful shit seems to work. It comes pretty naturally.

I'd appreciate your help.

[commiejoe]

How many drinks did you have by the time your were digging through fatty's purse?

edit: Were you escalating?

[CaliforniaSupreme]

What's your criteria for finding a girl? Do you just approach randomly?

[draguer]

It seems like most of what you're recounting is small moments and you're not making much of a strong connection or impression with these girls.

Are you dressing well? Are you giving value to these girls or trying to get it from them? What kind of vibe do you give off?

I'm just bouncing ideas around, these are all things to consider.

[eradicator]

(01-20-2014 07:24 PM)CaliforniaSupreme Wrote:  

What's your criteria for finding a girl? Do you just approach randomly?

Yes, you should be approaching any girl that gets your dick hard. Not fat women so you can steal their beer and food and rummage through their purses

[Frank]

(01-20-2014 07:15 PM)commiejoe Wrote:  

How many drinks did you have by the time your were digging through fatty's purse?

edit: Were you escalating?

I was on my second beer. Her friend, who was visiting her here, was cute.

Friend had a weird tattoo on her thigh, and it came to a point where I was pulling her shorts up to see the rest of it, and it was a-ok. Wasn't "weird" or anything.

(01-20-2014 07:24 PM)CaliforniaSupreme Wrote:  

What's your criteria for finding a girl? Do you just approach randomly?

Usually, it's just the hottest girls I'd see. But once I realized I wasn't doing enough good approaches (as in, where "stuff" could even get a chance of happening), I started going for any girl who I'd want to bang.

(01-20-2014 07:31 PM)draguer Wrote:  

It seems like most of what you're recounting is small moments and you're not making much of a strong connection or impression with these girls.

Are you dressing well? Are you giving value to these girls or trying to get it from them? What kind of vibe do you give off?

I'm just bouncing ideas around, these are all things to consider.

I'd say I made a good impression in general, but connecting with them is most likely a weak spot.

Pre red pill, making connections were easier, because I genuinely believed women and I could connect, and I had this very blue pill idea of what love was, and how a woman would suddenly make everything about my life better, etc. Now, I am not that deluded. I don't even want or need anything of the sort. So, I don't even go there. Somebody mentioned "giving v/s taking value", and I'd say I'm more "giving" than not. I generally try to add more fun and laughs to their night.

edit: I just remembered one thing, not sure it means anything: the friends of one of the girls (with an absent bf) I was talking to wanted to take pics and they took mine as well. I don't know if it's because I just happened to be there or if they liked me. I didn't pay much attention to it, but now that I look back, I perhaps should have tried pushing harder. I instead left and tried to find my friend who had vanished. At this point, I had had maybe 3-4 half liter beers and 3 shots of whisky. I don't need the alcohol to game, but around this point, it starts affecting my judgment. If I had been sober (or had less to drink), I would've probably pushed through. Another shortcoming...

Based on the reactions I've been getting from girls, I end up giving more of a player vibe than not, which is ironic, seeing as I'm not getting any! I say this because I tend to get better reactions (and they hook faster) with the better looking girls. Those are usually thin, have very defined facial features, beautiful long hair, and look like they could be in magazines or some wannabe-artsy black and white photo shoot. Solid 8s.

The 6s and 7s, I have a harder time "hooking". It takes more time, and sometimes I get blown off. It's like they can feel they're gonna get pumped and dumped. Which in my case, is usually not true. After going out for weeks and coming home alone, I've gained a better appreciation what it takes to get a ONS/SNL. At this point, ideally, I would be happy with two plates spinning at any one time.

I dress fairly well. I stand out a little, because I don't look like I just walked out of Zara or H&M, and I don't wear a jacket from Northface (nothing wrong with them, but lots of people wear those here I noticed). But I doubt my dress sense on its own is getting any panties dropped.

It's usually 501s, generic brown leather shoes, plain oxford cloth shirt (with black undershirt), and a field jacket. If it's colder, I'd throw a brown or grey v-neck sweater (possibly a scarf) in there. My wardrobe is very minimal, so it's usually a combination of that.

[draguer]

I get the point about lesser quality girls sometimes being less receptive. Someone did a good breakdown on here some time ago (anyone remember who?) about how they are are aware of their lower value and might be hostile as a defense mechanism to avoid the pain of rejection. Maybe also complement with some day game where these sort of girls might be more receptive and not as consciously aware of the fact that you'd like the interaction to lead toward a bang.

One other point is that you seem to be doing fine with playful, flirty talk but at a certain point you have to give them a hook that makes you memorable and makes you stand out. You can physically escalate quickly in certain situations but with many girls its better to bring them into your world and bring emotions into the conversation. Whether this is important obviously depends on the venue, how drunk you are etc. I'm aware of the vapid nature of most women you gain insight to with the red pill, however if you hold frame and have a sort of detached amusement you can make it work.

Its hard to give too much more advice without knowing more of your situation. If you're dressing well, are in good shape and people enjoy being around you you should get results, just keep working at it. This isn't an overnight process and many guys with tight game have honed it from countless hours of experience. There is a lot of fantastic content on here that helps immensely, but some deeper shifts in your game have to come from experience in the field. I've internalised a lot of what I've learned on here through my own mistakes.

[Frank]

I posted a Donlak post a couple of weeks ago about how really good looking guys end up facing those problems with less attractive girls.

I'm definitely not in good shape (a bit over 6'3, 165), and I intend on hitting the gym once finals are over next month. And another longer term project with regards to looks is expanding my wardrobe: http://realmademen.wordpress.com/2012/11...model-hot/ Now, it's just the basics I mentioned before. As I go towards my mid 20s, and get more $$, I'll up things a notch or two.

Knowing more of my situation? Like what?

I'm getting really tired of the long nights out. If I go out on Friday, I end up doing fuck all throughout the weekend, and going out on Saturday is probably the only productive thing I do. I think I might make the shift to day game. So far, what's holding me back is I find elderly talk tedious, and in day game, I don't have a "home base". Night time, I can use the bar or the table of a bunch of people I just met as a "buffer", until I find some other targets (also, it's usually cool to hang out with strangers).

Day time...I can't really do that. Unless I stay in a coffee shop and then go for elderly talk, but in the part of Europe I'm in, people tend to be pretty conservative and I was even asked to leave a bar because I approached a group of girls (nothing crazy, mind). So I can't see coffee shop game ending too well here.

I guess I could just make a few laps around town between approaches. Or if I'm on campus, I could make a few approaches, hang out in the library, try there, then head out, approach some more, and go back to reading. Rinse repeat. I probably need to scour Gio's posts soon.

When did you start getting bangs/plates regularly?

[AneroidOcean]

(01-20-2014 06:25 PM)Frank Wrote:  

In general, I am very dominant and don't really waste any time. I can see the girls are into me, but things never go anywhere. Lately, nearly all of the girls I hit it off with had a bf.

The dominant but playful/flirty thing is working for you, especially since you're tall and decent looking and dress decent. You've got a lot going for you, you just need to setup good logistics, isolate, escalate, and use your logistics!

(01-20-2014 06:25 PM)Frank Wrote:  

- I walk up to two girls and touch their backs as I say hello. "With that thing on your lips, do you have any trouble when shaving your mustache?" She takes a while to process this, and then both start laughing. Some fun banter. Turns out the 2nd girl knows a girl I was speaking to, and I grab her hand and get her to say hello.

I don't get the joke.

(01-20-2014 06:25 PM)Frank Wrote:  

I see a girl who I think is the same short haired chick. Open, turns out it isn't. She's certain it's not her. So I say "I know I'm handsome, but are you gonna keep staring at me, or are you gonna buy me a drink?" She half smiles, tests, I stay put, and asks what I want. Cool conversation.

I see a cute girl coming, I pull her towards me, say hello, I like your piercing, and I'll see you in a bit. I keep talking to short hair. Later on, some other girls come in, and I steal one of their beanies, and give it back later on. This is easier because I'm already talking to a cute girl. Short hair goes "So you're always flirting with the whole bar or what?" I play it off pretty casually with a "hmm, dunno...sometimes? most times...! (big grin)"

And the interaction ended here because why?

(01-20-2014 06:25 PM)Frank Wrote:  

- At a club, a few weeks ago. There's Dragon Ball Z playing on a screen (WTF), and I spot a chick watching. Make a comment about that. Not sure how I escalate, but within seconds, I am standing only about two inches from her. I'm touching her hips when we're talking. She fake-protests that I can't do that and as I say "yeah, but I am", she says "but it's ok...you're funny." Later on, she says I (or she?) has to leave. I say ok and open another girl who was about two feet from us. Later on, I find her again, dancing in the same area I am. I tease her, and I think she disappears. Another girl I was with earlier sees me, lights up, and I drink half her drink from her straw and she's like "heyy!!" and at this point, I'm dead tired, so I go home.

So you're dead tired. Why not stay a few minutes, go for a make out and a number? Girl is drinking and clearly into you.

(01-20-2014 06:25 PM)Frank Wrote:  

I liked fatty's friend, and when I was going through fatty's stuff to steal cigarettes, I found her phone, and put my number there. I have no idea why I did that.

You mentioned being tired a few times in your post as well as getting too drunk in a couple spots. I highly recommend that you cut your losses if nothing is going well as well as limiting your drink intake. Most chicks that stay until the bar closes aren't that great of options unless you are strictly just trying to get laid (and more often than not you want to bounce before the bars close anyway). It's very effective to not stay until the bar closes to both limit your drink intake and maximize the time you go out vs. sleeping.

(01-20-2014 06:25 PM)Frank Wrote:  

Thursday was chill, and I only made 1 approach. Few people at the bar. I feel like having a cigarette, so I go say hey to the 10-15 people who walked in. Very politely ask the guys for one (most of them were on the side closest to me), they ask the group, and then point towards a girl on the far end. "Ah...and turns out it's the most attractive one of the group" (in retrospect, risky move, but it was met with smiles). So, I talk with the girl for a bit. Then leave. Later on, she comes towards the bar (it's an L-shape and I'm on the other side), and I walk towards her and cut her convo with the bar maid. Both are kinda shocked, but the barmaid is cool with me and leaves quickly, and the girl smiles at me. We talk for 10-15 minutes. I try to set up a date and get her number, but she says it'd make her feel guilty, and she blabs on for a bit. We talk some more, and then she says she has to leave, and goes back to her friends.

Guilty about what? Because she's out with a guy in the group or because she's out with a bunch of friends? You should've pushed right through that, told her that opportunities like this don't come along that often, you shouldn't let life pass you by, then held out your phone for her to put her number in.

(01-20-2014 06:25 PM)Frank Wrote:  

Many of the interactions on Friday were like that, except that sometimes I cut them short and went to talk to other girls.

Anyway, all of the examples are to give an idea of the kind of game I run, and with that, it'd be easier to give some suggestions on how you think I should adjust. I'm not a total dweeb, but it is obvious that I am still a rookie who's making rookie mistakes.

It's good you're cutting some conversations short (in order to re-open later) or not being afraid to flirt/socialize with more than one girl, but you're not assuming the sale. Almost all the situations you described are pretty likely to go well for you if you'd continue escalation and just continue unfazed. Try it out.

[Frank]

(01-21-2014 02:55 PM)AneroidOcean Wrote:  

The dominant but playful/flirty thing is working for you, especially since you're tall and decent looking and dress decent. You've got a lot going for you, you just need to setup good logistics, isolate, escalate, and use your logistics!

Yeah, I'm pretty bad at this. In a bar setting, how would you suggest isolating? Is that necessarily outside/another bar, or as long as I get her away from the group?

Quote:

I don't get the joke.

My bad. She had a piercing on her upper lip, lol.

Quote:

And the interaction ended here because why?

Ah, I actually made a solid shot at closing this one. Whenever I hear stuff like "I'm visiting a friend", I usually back off (I guess many nights of not getting any SNLs did that to my confidence), but I kept at it with this one. So, we're outside the bar. I ask her if she likes whisky. She says yes. I say, c'mon, we'll go get some. I hint that I have some at home. Note that this bar is right next to where all the cabs are at.

She insists that she has to go because she's going back home with her parents early the next day. She also says I should go back for some other girls. Then she asks my name, which I don't tell. So I went back for some other girls. I ended up meeting some pretty cool guys, which was fun.

If I can help it, I don't say my name or where I'm from. Or what I do. For one, it gets the hamster spinning over something very insignificant/simple. So, they keep coming back, and a conversation that could have just ended after an introduction gets a "second chance". And I guess she can't place me into a compartments in her head "OK. Brown guy. Tall. Physics." Fuck that noise, other ways to get to know me.

Quote:

So you're dead tired. Why not stay a few minutes, go for a make out and a number? Girl is drinking and clearly into you.

You mentioned being tired a few times in your post as well as getting too drunk in a couple spots. I highly recommend that you cut your losses if nothing is going well as well as limiting your drink intake.

That night, I met some random guys and ended up in that club. I normally avoid clubs because I location change a lot, and I don't wanna spend 5 euros on the cover fee, and another euro for them to take my coat, when I know the odds of me leaving within 20 minutes are high. It's not a lot of money, but it's what, 1 large beer and a shot?

Anyway, when I see the DBZ girl again, she's alone, right behind where the guys and I were "dancing". There's a mirror next to her, so I say "stop checking yourself out!" I can't remember what happened next (maybe I looked away or went back to the guys), but she disappeared within a minute.

I totally hear ya. It's retarded of me. I invest enough to get to the point where they hook, and it's like I'm cock blocking myself by not pushing through. I guess the "I have a bf" thing kinda deters me. The DBZ girl was actually married. The girl whose drink I stole had a bf.

I should have at least tried closing.

And good point about drinking. I actually quit drinking on my own and only drink when I go out, but yeah, good point. I'm a broke ass college student, so I could do with saving some $$.

Quote:

Guilty about what? Because she's out with a guy in the group or because she's out with a bunch of friends? You should've pushed right through that, told her that opportunities like this don't come along that often, you shouldn't let life pass you by, then held out your phone for her to put her number in.

I did just that! Lots of resistance, but she clearly liked the attention/interaction.

It was a very small and old bar. Her friends were sitting about 5 feet from us. I guess she didn't wanna feel like a slut in front of them, and giving out her number was too "obvious". Smoking is allowed inside, so I couldn't have taken her outside under that pretext.

A few people on RVF have mentioned that German women tend to be very loyal to their boyfriends...but they will still get as much validation/attention as they can from other guys. I have no moral qualms about sleeping with taken girls, but I am a little annoyed at their "loyalty". (LOL)

A few weeks ago, my friend Carl had this big party in the basement bar of his dorms. His close friend Bob was there. When I walked in, I saw him talking to some blonde, and I figured "good for ya man". Later on, the blonde is alone, and there's not much going on. I hesitate a bit, and then I figure fuck it. Carl is alright, he won't care, and if it came down to it, he'd probably let me use his room to bang her. So, I chat her up, and we talk for a bit. At one point, my hand is somewhere on her back as I pull her close to me so I can whisper something in her here.

It's probably among my best approaches. I didn't realize it then, but Bob was right across us, laughing and chilling with some other people. And get this, Bob is 6'2, and around 190. And, no homo, the guy is good looking.

Later on, we're going out for a smoke, Carl, Bob, me, and some other people. The girl is coming, and I close the door and don't let her come out. She calls out for Bob, and I let her out. Guess what? She and Bob have been dating for 5-6 years.

Quote:

Almost all the situations you described are pretty likely to go well for you if you'd continue escalation and just continue unfazed. Try it out.

I'll keep trying. Probably not too soon. Exams in ~2 weeks, behind on some stuff, and if I go out on Friday, I'll probably feel like shit for a few days. It's not even the drinking part. I haven't gotten badly drunk in a long time. It's the staying up drinking till really late part that fucks my shit up.

Will try to daygame a bit this weekend and see what happens.

[draguer]

I just meant your situation like its difficult to get much more of an idea through forum posts.

Things that stepped me up:

Be unashamedly masculine and clear as to where you want the interaction to go.

Be successful in other areas of your life. Pussy follows success - whether it's in your career, fitness, life experiences - when you're thriving in these areas of your life it comes through and girls want to be a part of it.

Be self amused and almost above the conversation. By that I mean don't take anything too seriously and be a guiding and stable figure for her nonsense. With this frame you will swipe away any shit test and the conversation will flow.

Keep working at it but don't wear yourself out. This is meant to make you happy.