[Avon Barksdale]

I was wondering if anyone here has done computer science as a career choice. what are your views on it?

[Travesty]

If you become a full stack web developer or a great app developer you can get jobs anywhere in the U.S. pretty easily.

I don't know much about firmware and hardware other than what friends that work in that part of the industry tell me. I have met and heard several cases of Computer Engineer guys start hardware, then switch to want to go software due to more opportunities. There are just less jobs in designing microchips, motherboards etc... and they are very specialized.

If you speak English well and are a good communicator to be able to take solid requirements you can be making 6 figures with 3 or 4 years experience easily.

If you are near the top of your class in C.S. and get really involved including scoring great internships - I had friends making 90 - 110k coming out of school at 22.

The big problem with computer science is having balls to be industrious.

If you do not go into a start up with stock options, make your own product, or do lucrative contract work you will get stuck at a ceiling quickly.

The average developer won't break past low 6 figure mark even with plenty of experience.

Instead of sticking with the craft and starting a new business venture many developers aspire to become a project manager or product manager (takes requirements) so they get 10-30k lumped on top of their salary, but they also start losing their technical expertise and do not keep up with the craft. This route can lead to becoming a VP of technology or Director of Development.

These jobs make low to mid 6 figures usually. Not bad money, but it can still end up becoming a ceiling.

There are a few other routes, one fun one is becoming an Evangelist for technology at a big company like Microsoft or Salesforce. You play around with their new technologies and showcase them off the developers at conferences and on website blogs so that the technologies will become mainstream.

Another cool job that is a little more rare is Technical Sales or Technology Specialist, here you are assigned certain lines of usually large scale enterprise software and are to learn it back and forth and know how to install and deploy it for new large scale clients. This often includes travelling internationally for weeks at a time to team up with a Salesman and explain to the client's head VP of Tech how the software will benefit the company and how it would be integrated. I knew guys I worked with travelling the world for 6+ months a year and had been to 15+ different countries on business. The career track for this is become a manager of Technical Sales Specialists.

Some guys can make good coin going the Systems route by setting up and administrating servers and networks, but I am not very familiar with that, and the jobs available and pay on average does not keep pace with being on the Development side.

Main paths for backend or full stack developers are:

1) Developer -> Product Manager / Project Manager -> VP of Technology / Chief Technology Officer

2) Developer -> Architect (lead developer that still stays very technical)

3) Contractor

4) Start Up with Stock options

5) Make a new app/product

What you would mostly likely want to stay away from is being pigeonholed into one part of the stack so speak:

Examples:

1) Quality Assurance - stay away from this, the pay is lower, jobs are less and less and the tools to build software are smarter, less career progression

2) Database Administrator or Database only guy - this I can only see paying off if you are extremely specialized and get some lucrative contract work on some legacy system

3) Specializing only on any one part of the stack

4) I cannot speak for all frontend developers, but the pay is less as well as the career progression. I haven't seen frontend guys move up to be a lead Developer / Architect / VP of Tech etc... they just don't know what is going on with the code logic that runs the system to be able to lead larger teams and projects.

[Avon Barksdale]

Damn i really need to get on my grind then

[Travesty]

I think some people forget about computer science also is that you have the opportunity to work in any industry you desire.

I only have a few years experience but have worked for a fortune 20 Big Software company, an ad agency, and a major university.

All completely different cultures and settings.

The small start up type companies or ad agencies in particular have very laid back and fun atmospheres touted in the mainstream as places like Google or Facebook.

At my ad agency gig the CEO wore board shorts and cussed and joked with everyone. We had a PacMan old school arcade machine in our meeting room. There was always music playing on Spotify throughout the office. Constant joking and pegging people with nerf footballs. We played flip cup at work, had costume parties with people getting drunk, stupid team building contests between departments, an eating contest etc... This type of atmosphere doesn't happen in other industries as often where you can make as decent coin.

Also if you don't want to be doing emails and on the phone all day (I've had those jobs and they don't suit me) then it is great. I can come in hung over, or not have my personable energy one day and it won't affect my professional relationships or my work nearly as much as if I was running around meeting clients all day.

[Avon Barksdale]

I do want to pursue computer science. It is an interesting field. What is the highest level of math that you had to learn calculus?
Also any tips you can offer a guy like me I am currently enrolled in community college. eventually I wanna transfer out to a regular college.
Thank you for your advice so far.

[Travesty]

(12-01-2013 11:50 PM)Slade Wilson Wrote:  

I do want to pursue computer science. It is an interesting field. What is the highest level of math that you had to learn calculus?
Also any tips you can offer a guy like me I am currently enrolled in community college. eventually I wanna transfer out to a regular college.
Thank you for your advice so far.

I got to side step most math courses completely because I have my master's in CS and my BS in other things.

I had to take many undergrad level CS course though to catch up and my master's took 3.5 years (though I didn't take full course loads).

They let me skip all the grunt math work undergrads have to do which was as high as Calculus 2 or 3 I believe. I am glad I got to skip it as my undergrad friends tell me it hasn't helped them really at all when it comes to software. Data structures and algorithms certainly do, but not calculus itself.

Tips would be first make sure you always submit a FAFSA and get as much free financial aid as you can. I got grants for master's degree because my income was so low and I was old enough I couldn't be a dependent on my parents.

Next would be to work on your porftfolio / GitHub now.

You can either make a website/web app that showcases your skills, or a mobile app.

If you go the mobile app route you really only need to learn and focus on IoS or Android to begin with.

If you want to be a full stack developer you need to start learning now what the stack is.

The must need skills for a full stack developer are:

Frontend:
HTML
CSS
Javascript(jQuery)

Backend:
Web Programming Language ( Ruby, C#, Java, PHP )
Framework to go with that language
Database set up (SQL - language to play with data or the NoSQL route)
Web Server (Apache, IIS)
Deployment system (Git, Team Foundation Server, etc...)

Even if you go the mobile app route i.e. iPhone apps etc... you still should know Backend so the app can actually do stuff with data over the web. Otherwise it is just pretty content. IoS and Android just replace Frontend (HTML/CSS/Javascript) on phone apps instead of it being shown as a normal web page.

Your classes will most like be theory based some of which are extremely helpful.

Data Structures and Algorithms
Operating Systems
Computer Security
Software Engineering

These were the most useful classes in my opinion other than pure language courses such as Java, C# etc...

You will get much more pull from having a portfolio that shows you can make a real web app or mobile app from front to back and know how it all works.

You can find endless tutorials on all technologies I have mentioned.

One of your biggest choices is finding the Web Programming Language and Framework you like best and getting great at it. Your other option is to be a really great at IoS and Android apps. One or the other will land you many opportunities. Even if you do not become a Developer and go into Evangelism or Technical Sales this will show an employer you are interested in current technologies and you know how the web and apps work in general. Hell, you may get good enough you may start your own thing before you even get your degree.

Those 2 skills are the core requirement for many jobs. 5 of the most popular ones are:

Language / Framework:
Java / Tomcat
Ruby / Rails (Ruby on Rails)
C# / .NET
Python / Django
PHP / Cake

From my looking around Ruby/Rails jobs seem to be highest paying with the least experience as it is a bit less prevalent, but in high demand.

C# / .NET and Java jobs are much more plentiful and still well paid.

[Avon Barksdale]

Wow thanks man, I have a lot I need to do, so I can succeed.

[cycliss]

Realize that you don't actually learn practical skills in a traditional computer science program. This is why so many CS grads can't program shit out of school. The universities know that languages, libraries, and frameworks go in and out of date so fast, they largely don't bother teaching them beyond the barebones. Instead, you will focus on the more theoretical concepts that don't change that much with time, like algorithms, compilers, graph theory, networking, digital logic, cryptography etc. For example, in a database class, they don't teach you MySQL, they teach you database theory. They don't teach you Windows IIS in a networking class, you learn client-server architecture. The only time you learn anything practical is during the internships you are usually required to take.

If you simply want to learn how to code, you're much better off in a coder bootcamp or hacker academy run by people in industry (or teach yourself!). You can learn enough coding for a junior position in 3-6 months given how high level most languages are now. It is considered the easiest aspect of computer science (which is why entry coders often get called "monkeys").

[Marmite]

I have a CS degree, and wish I would have done electronic engineering instead. There isn't anything on a CS degree that you couldn't cover with autodidactic study and a little hard work. Make sure you build a decent technical portfolio as you go.

[Avon Barksdale]

(12-02-2013 02:12 AM)cycliss Wrote:  

Realize that you don't actually learn practical skills in a traditional computer science program. This is why so many CS grads can't program shit out of school. The universities know that languages, libraries, and frameworks go in and out of date so fast, they largely don't bother teaching them beyond the barebones. Instead, you will focus on the more theoretical concepts that don't change that much with time, like algorithms, compilers, graph theory, networking, digital logic, cryptography etc. For example, in a database class, they don't teach you MySQL, they teach you database theory. They don't teach you Windows IIS in a networking class, you learn client-server architecture. The only time you learn anything practical is during the internships you are usually required to take.

If you simply want to learn how to code, you're much better off in a coder bootcamp or hacker academy run by people in industry (or teach yourself!). You can learn enough coding for a junior position in 3-6 months given how high level most languages are now. It is considered the easiest aspect of computer science (which is why entry coders often get called "monkeys").

Hmmm alright what do you think is the best way to teach myself, I heard python is good?

[cycliss]

(12-02-2013 09:23 AM)Slade Wilson Wrote:  

(12-02-2013 02:12 AM)cycliss Wrote:  

Realize that you don't actually learn practical skills in a traditional computer science program. This is why so many CS grads can't program shit out of school. The universities know that languages, libraries, and frameworks go in and out of date so fast, they largely don't bother teaching them beyond the barebones. Instead, you will focus on the more theoretical concepts that don't change that much with time, like algorithms, compilers, graph theory, networking, digital logic, cryptography etc. For example, in a database class, they don't teach you MySQL, they teach you database theory. They don't teach you Windows IIS in a networking class, you learn client-server architecture. The only time you learn anything practical is during the internships you are usually required to take.

If you simply want to learn how to code, you're much better off in a coder bootcamp or hacker academy run by people in industry (or teach yourself!). You can learn enough coding for a junior position in 3-6 months given how high level most languages are now. It is considered the easiest aspect of computer science (which is why entry coders often get called "monkeys").

Hmmm alright what do you think is the best way to teach myself, I heard python is good?

The entire tutorial set for practically every language is available on youtube in video form. It doesn't matter which one you choose, but it wil be easier if you choose one which was created within the last decade. Alternatively, you can pick up a book at any library or read a huge number of full tutorials online by googling. Its just like learning a new language, its not complicated and you don't need to spend money, it really depends whether or not you are willing to put in the time though. A lot of beginners seem to like Ruby on Rails since it was designed from the bottom up to be for web development and you can make stuff pretty quick. Any of the newer languages will only take you a few months if you stick to it.

[malc]

If you work in a start up, you often want to be one of the first 10 employees. After a series A, your equity stake goes way down usually. Unless you end up working at a superstar equivalent startup (google, facebook) your total compensation can equalize to whatever you would of gotten at google, apple or facebook anyway and you have to sit on your ass for a liquidity event. And your working stupid amounts of hours.

Also make sure you can relate to top management in a startup. If there is a generational or cultural gap between you and the founders or you just don't relate well, the likelihood of you getting a leadership position later and $$$ is greatly reduced. Are the founders and top staff first generation chinese, indian, israeli/jewish, whatever? Not a good sign for you unless you're of the same group. They can exclude you somewhat due to just talking the same language amongst themselves because they feel more comfortable speaking their first language.

The jewish top staff can be bit of an underground thing because they can be second generation, different ethnicities, non-practicing, etc but know each other through friends or the synagogue. So you might see a multi-ethnic french, russian, middle eastern, israeli and white bread american executive group and find out 4 months into working there that they're ALL jewish. Even the founders of google have a jewish cultural background. This has happened to a friend of mine.

If you do end up in the SF Bay Area / Silicon Valley, DO NOT LIVE IN THE FUCKING SOUTH BAY / MAN JOSE! Go live in SF / Oakland / Berkeley area. There are far more women there. South bay startups are more likely to have an older suburban family orientated set too.

This angry series of blog posts is also something to keep in mind when your looking at top tier startup political stuff. Don't get too freaked out by it and stop yourself from jumping into opportunities: https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/?s=...mit=Search

-----

But at this point for you, this is something you probably don't have to worry about for a while.

I would start by making actual apps. Make a web app or make a app for your smart phone. That practical experience alone will help you a lot. For backend websites, node.js is becoming a popular way to teach first timers full stack web app programming, due to it being written in Javascript, the same language you'll use for front end browser/html stuff. Javascript is a bit of a mess although, python is a bit easier for a new person to learn programming with due to it's clarity.

Math wise you do discrete, linear algebra, a stats course and whole bunch of mostly useless calculus track stuff. I really don't understand why calculus is pushed so much, I had to do 4 or 5 classes of it all the way up to differential equations. You wont be doing that stuff unless your touching physical simulation software, like with CAD, 3D graphics (to a point), engineering and scientific software. The discrete, linear algebra and stats courses were far more interesting and far more likely to be used throughout your studies and your career.

For interviews, everyone loves to do algorithms questions. They're the harder set of classes, but they are by far the most used material for interviews. Basic multithreading questions like producer/consumer is another favorite. Fortunately you can teach yourself all of this with free online courses!

[Wutang]

(12-02-2013 02:12 AM)cycliss Wrote:  

For example, in a database class, they don't teach you MySQL, they teach you database theory. They don't teach you Windows IIS in a networking class, you learn client-server architecture.

I can co-sign this. I'm taking a database class right now in a comp sci program and we spent more time learning about the enhanced-relationship model, scehema artchitecture, normalization and other theory. I think we had like one class on PHP and one class on MYSQL. The only time we actually have to program and create something is for the final project where we're supposed to build a fake online store.

[Avon Barksdale]

Well I have a lot to do then. Thank you all for the help

[Thrill Jackson]

I'm thinking about getting a second degree in computer science, along with my accounting degree. Ilmy goal is to work for s small stable firm I'm the tax department, so I could use this as a side huslte outside of business hours. Dear have some computer software gigs sound realistic as a side hustle?

[Travesty]

I think to make it worth the time and effort doing real software engineering contracts just on the side would require an unusually high amount of intelligence and drive.

I have never met someone making worthwhile money off side contracts that doesn't either presently have or had many years of full-time experience under their belts in the past.

[Travesty]

To update my first posts in this thread because it is 2016 now:

Node.js / Express is the new hotness as a backend language / web framework - add to list of other pairings I mentioned. It is the favorite of many start ups and also is being integrated piecemeal into other existing codebases due to its advantages in many scenarios.

And if you want to do firmware (software that controls actual hardware like infrared cameras, robotics etc...) get really really good at the C Language and understanding microprocessors.

[jbo]

Another 2016 update to the pairing mentioned: PHP should be paired with Laravel and/or Symfony framework nowadays, these two seem to get the most attention.