[Suits]

I was reading Athlone McGinnis' excellent article Society Can't Afford The Educated Women and some occurred to me.

The Manosphere will need to take a new step if it wishes to contribute to a widespread major change in society.

ROK is going to be much more likely to appeal to a man who has already swallowed the red pill than one who has not. Some goes for Roissy, Dalrock and virtually all Manosphere bloggers. The one thing that these platforms all have in common is that they offer social commentary.

The next step will be to move past simply commentating on the current state of affairs from our fringe soap boxes to establishing mainstream institutions that positively influence society.

Here's an example of how this could be done:

HuffPo is a Internet only new aggregation source that also features blogs. It has 200+ employees, but publishes in five languages other than English.

What if some smart guys from the Manosphere got together and adopted this business model for their own purposes?

The goal wouldn't be to preach Manosphere values. It would be, rather, to offer an alternative to the media outlets that do exist.

If about 200 people collectively publish HuffPo, I'm thinking that 50 could put out a single English edition online newspaper targeting men who aren't idiots.

I'd guess that 10 people could probably write all the general news coming off the wire. None of that is rocket science. You'd need about 10 commentary columnists who wouldn't just focus on typical manosphere themes, but also apply red pill perspective to a host of issues. 10 people to sell advertisement. 10 editors to keep things up to snuff and 10 dedicated journalists to investigate specific stories, where more information is needed than just what comes off the wire service (or is based on reports from competing sources).

-------------------------

Do you guys think that RVF would have the talent base to create this monster? (I believe that we do).

Would we be able to find enough volunteers to get it off the ground without having to invest a lot of money into it up front to pay employees?

Is it even feasible? Anyone with publishing experience wanna weigh in?

Is the Daily Mail already doing a good enough job or is there a hole in the market for this?

[Buddy Orion]

That is a really awesome idea, but the main problem with it is that most bloggers are 1) anonymous and therefore really preventing any professional connections between them and 2) not interested in big entrepreneurial ideas, preferring their own lifestyles over creating a full time media outlet. The amount of energy and commitment this idea would take is ridiculous, it's pretty much a full career. Most guys aren't into that and it would take a huge push from a few individuals to get it going.

[AntiTrace]

Good idea. Now go execute.

Start with a newsletter and a website then work your way up

[Roosh]

There is no money yet in red pill media, because corporate sponsors (which are needed to fund large ventures) have scared feet. Last week our sponsor, a pickup guide, received mass complaints from angry women. Corporations can't deal with that.

Another option is to run the NSFWcorp model, which charges a premium membership. This is a good idea, but it needs critical mass. I know ROK could turn a reasonable profit doing this, but right now my goal is to spread the ideas freely. I don't want to lock anything up behind a paywall. ROK hasn't broken even yet, but this is no concern of mine. I don't expect it to for quite some time.

For the short term, publishing manosphere type content will not pay unless you go the book publishing route.

[Basil Ransom]

It's already happening, just on a very decentralized, disorganized basis. Return of Kings is leading the charge, but there are plenty of other people chipping away. I see no special advantage to trying to erect a centralized site.

Really, the next step is not more websites per se, but expanding into media that will give manosphere propaganda a broader reach. That means movies, podcasts, radio, television... Return Of Kings has had articles go viral. The next step is having videos go viral. And that's probably going to come from completely different people - people who come to fame through video, and not writing. The next step requires people who are proficient in something more than just blog posts and books. Not to denigrate those of course, those alone have been incredibly effective for thinking men. But there's more than just thinking men...

Hell, there are religious missionaries everywhere - no reason you couldn't do the same. At your next local fair, you could pitch a stand promoting manosphere principles. Get a little trollish, attract some attention, mack some babes, piss off some feminists, sounds like great fun.

Roosh has a good point about sponsorships. I've thought about this before - what the fuck do I even buy that has advertising? I drive a used car and would never buy new. I don't buy big name packaged (i.e. shitty) food. Plus, like Roosh said, most advertisers are appealing to a much wider audience - aside from maybe dick pills and hair restoration, corporations will care about what their female feminist consumers think, and how they react.

And the NSFWCorp model would only limit the spread of his ideas, which is contrary to his whole goal.

It would be interesting though to see what other sponsors could be drummed up. There's also Amazon affiliate marketing if it's not too intrusive.

[Roosh]

There are two problems with video:

-You lose anonymity
-Viral videos are expensive to produce

But I do agree that it would be a nice addition. We need a man with a bubbly talkshow personality. Most manosphere writers like myself are writers for a reason.

[j r]

(11-25-2013 10:11 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

There are two problems with video:

-You lose anonymity
-Viral videos are expensive to produce

But I do agree that it would be a nice addition. We need a man with a bubbly talkshow personality. Most manosphere writers like myself are writers for a reason.

Tommy Sotomayor would be a good host. And his being black would have the added benefit of helping to disrupt the narrative of the predictable progressive response and piss of the conservative white knight crowd.

[Roosh]

I did some more research on the NSFWcorp model and it seems not to be working so well. They've received tons of funding but need to beg for more, in spite of apparently impressive subscriber numbers:

NSFWCORP’s race to survive
http://pandodaily.com/2013/09/27/nsfwcor...o-survive/

And just in the past day they had to sell the company to prevent going under:

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/20...ando-daily

Quote:

Despite winning fans, it didn’t make money.

They burned through $3 million. God, give me that amount of money for ROK and I'd make magic happen.

[Basil Ransom]

(11-25-2013 10:36 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

They burned through $3 million. God, give me that amount of money for ROK and I'd make magic happen.

The $3M went to Pando. Looks like NSFWCorp raised money, but not sure how much.

[soup]

I think that the next generation of manospheros will have a huge amount of info to comb through.

Roosh might be able to make money retroactively on older posts.

[runsonmagic]

(11-25-2013 10:11 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

There are two problems with video:

-You lose anonymity
-Viral videos are expensive to produce

But I do agree that it would be a nice addition. We need a man with a bubbly talkshow personality. Most manosphere writers like myself are writers for a reason.

There are a few people doing video. RSD has a strong video blog - which they can get away with because their income comes entirely from pickup coaching.

There are also a few MRA writers - most notably girlwriteswhat - who do solid video blogging. Staresattheworld also has some really solid video blogs.

Most of the above are simply a direct address to the camera. Something viral or documentary style would take time, money, and talent.

Video also changes the medium a lot. Imagine if the Eating Disorder Article was done as video blog. With writing it's just the content. In video, WHO you are matters as much as what you're saying. We don't know what Tuthmosis looks like, but it might change the entire piece.

If he was a short ginger would that change your opinion of his ideas? What about if he was a muscular model wearing a suit speaking from his rich LA pad? What if he was an older college professor? A frat college student? If his energy is bubbly and the video has constant music under as he stands in front of a green screen? What if he's talking into his macbook with a messy mattress and a few posters in the background?

You get the idea. All of those settings and speakers tell a different story. And the above video bloggers I mentioned have their persona and delivery down. Who they present themselves to be is congruent.

I think video is a great idea. I work in film myself. But it raises a whole new set of issues.

[Grit]

There is still a phantom lurking out there:

Consider this quote Athlone drops in the ROK article:

"…The second (and more problematic) group consists of highly educated women who drop out (or “opt-out”) when they have children, even though they have the skills and income necessary to hire childcare. This latter bunch has economists and feminists alarmed for different reasons.

Economists consider the defections costly for the country; we need highly talented and trained workers. For feminists, the drop-out trend undermines their argument that women – even our most accomplished and best educated — are victims of discrimination. If the women most likely to enter the C-suite marathon increasingly choose to hang up their running shoes, why should we expect more finishers?"
...

At face value, this passage conveys that (mainstream) economists:

1. Are shocked and befuddled by normal natural feminine behavior of withdrawing from social life to raise children
2. Decide en masse that mothers will have no problem hiring nannies so she can get back to work.
3. See women as "highly talented and trained" workers (pull the other fucking leg will ya )

These so called economists are just one archetypal male who is investing years of career and research into non manosphere thought. Here are men hedging their bets - high stakes career and ego- on women acting in a logical rational sequence, complete blue pill thought.

Considering the number of corporate players who simply take it up the ass for feminists, are these men naive believers? Are they fully consciously aware and devious? Are they absolute simps? Regardless, their ego is attached to this reality an d that will be the hardest aspect for the manosphere moving forward. Ego is the hardest bastion to overcome.

[T and A Man]

Quote:

They burned through $3 million. God, give me that amount of money for ROK and I'd make magic happen.

keep out the seduction/pua bit, as it's taboo there, but I think you've found your kickstarter vehicle.

"A daily online tabloid to offers news and current affairs to the under-represented masculine market"

[The Beast1]

(11-25-2013 10:11 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

There are two problems with video:

-You lose anonymity
-Viral videos are expensive to produce

But I do agree that it would be a nice addition. We need a man with a bubbly talkshow personality. Most manosphere writers like myself are writers for a reason.

Funny you say that, i've been an on air personality in the past. I'm an excellent speaker, but lack clarity in my own written thoughts. I'm a speaker for a reason

We'd do better infiltrating current political parties and changing the trend that way.

[carouge]

Thats what I was thinking.$3mil ,maybe kickstarter.I think many members here would contribute

[Emancipator]

Kickstarter?

The fembots and white knights will force Kickstarter/Indigogo admins to take down this "misogynistic ploy" demanding that money be funneled to Sarkessian fembot efforts instead.

[T and A Man]

Game it?

Talk about

"Knowing the errors of my ways, and how I will bring intelligent thought into a captive readership"

"I have a record of success spanning to widely read blogs"

Failure is what? Some time spent.

Success is what? A cool 6 figures like Sarkessian?

Sounds like assyemmtric risk/reward to me.

[la_mode]

I think it's important the manosphere stays focused on improving being a man, opposed to a knee-jerk reaction to every single stupid feminist blog.

On some level, I understand they need to be addressed. At the same time, it's better to let them be fat & miserable - they aren't going to change. Addressing their every move is a slight association to them, just via being a counterbalance.

One of the cooler frats at the big ten university I went to had a quote "We don't party with fat chicks", and they applied that to everything. Simply no affiliations to fat chicks. Addressing them too much isn't a good thing in my opinion.

[Icarus]

A few months ago, Bryce Laliberte wrote the following on Roosh and the Manosphere:

Quote:

In a post that seems par for the course these last few months, Roosh argues that the Manosphere is lost. Give it a read, as my commentary assumes your comprehension of it.

Roosh presents an attitude which I have seen in Manosphere blogs, comments, and ostensibly related forums of discussion. There is a general incomprehension, even a skepticism, of those who would apply the doctrinal consensus towards theories with a purpose other than getting laid. Indeed, hedonistic as much of the Game community is, it’s understandable that they would think neoreactionary social theory, with its preference for traditional mores and social arrangements, to be opposed to the spirit of Game. The “spirit of Game” is nothing but slaying pussy. Or is it?

In my taxonomy of the Reactosphere, I included Roosh in the Advice category, for while he is clearly not a member of neoreaction and has no contribution to the movement, his material is still a rite of passage for many men. But this is nothing essential to Roosh. My own introduction to neoreaction came by way of Roissy and Rollo, who I read more deeply than Roosh because they went deeper. There are times when Roosh sees that the principles of Game imply something deeper, something scarier, but he consistently chooses to not go down that rabbit hole. It is like he is compartmentalized: red pill about sex, blue pill about everything else.

(...)

The Manosphere and the Reactosphere are clearly related, but the relation is asymmetrical. Being a member of the Reactosphere entails accepting the wisdom of the Manosphere, but accepting Manosphere wisdom doesn’t entail being reactive. Why is this?

Roosh probably disagrees with this opinion. In any case, it suggests that the next step could be some kind of integration with the Reactosphere. This has already happened to some extent, since Heartiste is now using words like "Dark Enlightenment" and "The Cathedral" (a term coined by Mencius Moldbug), thus signaling that he's reading neoreactionary blogs.

BTW, Matt Forney reviewed Bryce Laliberte's book on Neoreaction last month.

[rastignac]

(11-25-2013 11:47 PM)soup Wrote:  

I think that the next generation of manospheros will have a huge amount of info to comb through.

Roosh might be able to make money retroactively on older posts.

I spent a little time following some of the Twitter traffic about ROK. It looks like the older posts are getting quite a bit of attention from folks: people saying they can't stop reading the site, people commenting on and sharing older articles.

The writers should be applauded for putting up a pretty solid body of work this last year. I also notice that most articles have a pretty long shelf life, as they are not directly related to the news of the day.

I honestly think people are shocked that this effort had no corporate sponsor or deep financial backing.

[kosko]

A lot of non-tradtional, independent, or red pill media arms rely on donations. This keeps the access open away from pay walls while it taps into the one element that left leaning more "inclusive" independent media arms struggle with and that is: independent and rouge men are far an beyond more successful with more resources then women or more mainstream men. Ghost donations of 50k out of the blue from a wealthy site fan would not be something bizarre for ROK to see sometime soon.

This is what differ from folks like The Young Turks whom have built a massive pay wall to their real content and still try to be mainstream by shilling to advertisements and with increasing scope they did themselves hand cuffed as big money is dangled over their heads from sponsors but the request to tone things down. ROK wont face that issue as its not trying to play the game by traditional rules.

[Vitriol]

(11-26-2013 01:46 PM)Icarus Wrote:  

A few months ago, Bryce Laliberte wrote the following on Roosh and the Manosphere:

Quote:

In a post that seems par for the course these last few months, Roosh argues that the Manosphere is lost. Give it a read, as my commentary assumes your comprehension of it.

Roosh presents an attitude which I have seen in Manosphere blogs, comments, and ostensibly related forums of discussion. There is a general incomprehension, even a skepticism, of those who would apply the doctrinal consensus towards theories with a purpose other than getting laid. Indeed, hedonistic as much of the Game community is, it’s understandable that they would think neoreactionary social theory, with its preference for traditional mores and social arrangements, to be opposed to the spirit of Game. The “spirit of Game” is nothing but slaying pussy. Or is it?

In my taxonomy of the Reactosphere, I included Roosh in the Advice category, for while he is clearly not a member of neoreaction and has no contribution to the movement, his material is still a rite of passage for many men. But this is nothing essential to Roosh. My own introduction to neoreaction came by way of Roissy and Rollo, who I read more deeply than Roosh because they went deeper. There are times when Roosh sees that the principles of Game imply something deeper, something scarier, but he consistently chooses to not go down that rabbit hole. It is like he is compartmentalized: red pill about sex, blue pill about everything else.

(...)

The Manosphere and the Reactosphere are clearly related, but the relation is asymmetrical. Being a member of the Reactosphere entails accepting the wisdom of the Manosphere, but accepting Manosphere wisdom doesn’t entail being reactive. Why is this?

Roosh probably disagrees with this opinion. In any case, it suggests that the next step could be some kind of integration with the Reactosphere. This has already happened to some extent, since Heartiste is now using words like "Dark Enlightenment" and "The Cathedral" (a term coined by Mencius Moldbug), thus signaling that he's reading neoreactionary blogs.

BTW, Matt Forney reviewed Bryce Laliberte's book on Neoreaction last month.

There's really a couple different steps involved in going from reading about game and wanting to slay pussy to becoming neoreactionary or following any other political movement.

Someone like Roosh realized through trying to slay pussy in Western nations that something had gone wrong with the culture because of the way the women were and how people socialize in general. But you can always just leave for a place that isn't as bad (yet) and say "fuck it" while trying to get laid more easily and effectively in other parts of the world. I see it as kind of a second step to dig deeper and see how democracy and capitalism encourage lowest common denominator, herd-mentality behavior. This is great for the ruling elite and "the cathedral" because these types are easier to control. What we're seeing is a lot of propaganda with only a few limited viewpoints being fed to the masses to keep the elites where they are, and keep the masses dumb because it works to the advantage of the ruling class.
However, sites that are concerned with game alone may not necessarily want to get into the political aspects of all of that. There's also an issue of what course to take once you realize how flawed the current system is. The neoreactionaries are merely one choice and it isn't inevitable that everyone in the manosphere joins their cause.

Although the one thing is obvious: any kind of real "change" is going to need to be a pretty massive overhaul at this point and I'm not sure if I see it happening without some kind of great social collapse.

[Icarus]

(11-28-2013 11:15 AM)Vitriol Wrote:  

There's really a couple different steps involved in going from reading about game and wanting to slay pussy to becoming neoreactionary or following any other political movement.

I wholeheartedly agree with all you wrote, except for one thing. I believe the Manosphere already is a political movement to some extent.

To cut a long story short, we at RVF want to rule ourselves. We want to be ruled neither by women, nor priests, nor managers, nor politicians, nor generals. A man who rules himself deprives someone of the power to rule him. If power is conserved, the more power you have over yourself, the less power someone has over you.

Transferring power is what politics is all about. We are not a political party, because we don't want to rule others, only ourselves. But we are a political movement.

[Ryre]

(11-25-2013 07:18 PM)Suits Wrote:  

The Manosphere will need to take a new step if it wishes to contribute to a widespread major change in society.

ROK is going to be much more likely to appeal to a man who has already swallowed the red pill than one who has not. Some goes for Roissy, Dalrock and virtually all Manosphere bloggers. The one thing that these platforms all have in common is that they offer social commentary.

The next step will be to move past simply commentating on the current state of affairs from our fringe soap boxes to establishing mainstream institutions that positively influence society.

Here's an example of how this could be done:

HuffPo is a Internet only new aggregation source that also features blogs....

Even something like HuffPo is just more commentary. It's a weird world, where Slate reacts to something in the New York Times, Jezebel reprints Slate with more snark, the manosphere makes fun of Jezebel, Jezebel attacks back, and around and around.

What I think the manosphere needs is more real-world action. Like the fund to support guys who come under feminist attack--I thought that was a great idea. It'd be a way to get mainstream attention, too. I think people would pay attention if a group of activist men actually came to the support of the next guy fired over a dongle joke.

But this might be too MRA for some.

[Teedub]

[quote] (11-28-2013 03:10 PM)Ryre Wrote:  

[quote='Suits' pid='587543' dateline='1385425083']
What I think the manosphere needs is more real-world action. Like the fund to support guys who come under feminist attack--I thought that was a great idea. It'd be a way to get mainstream attention, too. I think people would pay attention if a group of activist men actually came to the support of the next guy fired over a dongle joke.

But this might be too MRA for some.[/quote]

Difference is, we look, aesthetically, a lot different to those MRA types. Plus, on average we're a lot younger, so if we were in the mainstream...Guys would want to be us, and girls would... Well, you get the idea.

I think the key before any major step is reached is getting a lot of the guys here self-employed and location independent. Then we don't have to worry about the financial repercussions of going against the orthodoxy of political correctness and 'The Cathedral'. Because, as absolutely repugnant as it is, freedom of thought, never mind freedom of speech, doesn't exist in the Anglo world anymore. If Tuthmosis was writing under his real name he'd have been hounded out of his job for what he's written, despite the fact that what he's written isn't offensive at all really, and even if it is, so what?