[beta_plus]

Anyone who reads this forum semi-frequently knows how bad DC is for men and how bad the night scene has become since the beginning of the 2007 financial crisis. Most venues - restaurants, bars, or clubs - on most nights in DC are either deserted or sausage fests. I assumed that this was a just a DC thing, fueled by an ever surging cost of living, an increase in sausagey defense contract jobs, and a collapse in poosy paradise influencing non-profit jobs and an increase in college tuition drying up the well of young sluts in of DC.

Then I saw this youtube post by Captain Capitalism, claiming something similar is happening in Minneapolis. Now, I don't agree much with his hypothesis on why that's happening, but I was astonished to see him make a similar observation in a city that has little relationship with DC (I probably would have shrugged off his observation if he was from Pittsburgh, Albany-Buffalo corridor, or Cleveland).

Is this happening in other cities in the US right now? Or is this just a coincidence that it's happening in DC and the Twin Cities at the same time?

[porscheguy]

A lot of it is expense. I remember in the mid-late 90s you could drink liquor in a DC nightclub for a reasonable amount of money. Over the past decade, prices have skyrocketed. Now a simple cocktail at a shitty hotel bar in Arlington will set you back $12.

[Deepdiver]

LOL - one word - facebook - Was out at the local mega sports bar and decadent disco - rarely any talent over a 5/6 due to a $5 cover for the disco (No cover for the Sports bar) and all the guys in Boston regional team gear - the young hard charging sarges use facebook and so do the she bees uploading group selfies all night long - young sargers 21+ plus no longer ask for numbers - they just ask the bees name if she is remotely cute - even cute face but chubsters - and they ask her name - first and last name then type it in and scroll to her picture - is that you? They ask and she replies yes thats me I am that Ashley Johnson out of a list of 40+ etc etc - the sarges immediately friend the bees and say great I will connect next week. She reponds OK! Then on to the next bee prospect - the longest interaction is about a minute - so facebook, twitter, instagram and Match with their want to log in with Facebook/Twitter the new digits...

Of course the 6-7-8s were at the local Brew Pub that clears the dining room as a dance disco - no cover and cheap $3.50 beers - was packed! The other disco charges 8 bucks for a mixed drink and emp-teee... Both sausage fests so go figure.

Bars/Clubs will have to adapt to mobile/social if they want to compete imho.

[J.J.]

Yes. Its not worth it to pay a lot of money to get crumbs of entitled average looking women

[Vitriol]

I've seen a number of local venues close down within the past several months. Not sure if some other bars or clubs will take their place, but nothing has yet.

I'm also noticing that people will flock to one or two venues in a given neighborhood and the rest empty out... then when people see the empty ones they tend to flock to the packed venues in greater numbers. So it's possible that these venues are just cannibalizing each other because no one wants to waste their time at the dead places.

[kosko]

The highlight of modern era clubs seems to be 98-2008. It was good in those days and evreybody was having a good time. In the early says it was more underground with way better music. You went to a hip-hop club in 2002 and shit was gooood, a trance club goooood, warehouse parties in like 1998 goooood. Owners then just wanted authentic stuff that lacked in the age prior, they were making good money doing that and maybe drugs on the side, evreybody was happy. Talk to a older kat about clubbing in the late 90's and see his face light up.

The downfall though, It's a synthesis of a lot of things. If you look at the Toronto market it shows a lot into the future of how other cities that aren't the big 4 (LA, Miami, LV, NYC) will end up. Toronto was a trend setter and for its size had the largest nightlife scene in North America for much of the 2000s but it does not have the flush of ballers and real cash to keep a high level and high end scene going. So you got progressive trends but it flamed out quickly due to lack of funds to keep it going.

The culture has changed and the price of entry is to high now to have a decent night out. The explosions of booths and bootles was a direct reply to the mid 2000s credit boom we saw with youth. People were balling out with debt and clubs realized the profits were too good to pass up and dove in head first into that profit model. Bars introduced food into the mix to try and make more profits and that created a whole other legal framework in regards to how you operate establishments. Many places if your a "resto" you can't "operate" as a bar until 11pm or 12am, because of that you get weird overlap where you can't push food heavy nor drinks and it cuts into your margins. A resto has to push one; either push heavy drinks and snack foods at a loss, or push meals knowing people won't drink a shit ton I perceive (paging @thedude) it's hard for them to both unless they are running just snacks and tapas as thier hustle.

And now, people now can be anywhere and pretend to have a good time. A shitty lounge with some oysters and your smartphone is all you need. The desire to go out and share a experience with others in a bar has waned. Social circle groups have creeped up when before you outgrew them in your 20s only to settle back into them once you slowed down with a carrer and family. I'm not talking hanging with your boys. I'm talking your little circle and doing nothing but hanging with them every weekend like your 18 agian. I see packs of losers all around here in Toronto, girls grill me for rolling solo but I Iaugh at the losers they drag out for company so they don't feel "alone".

A similar comparison is Streetwear (think Hypebeast and a more mainstream site now karmaloop.com). I was big into street wear growing up and overnight during the credit boom you saw startup labels pop-up everywhere. Once it got overstaturted and loans starte to dry up companies (and consumers) starred to dry up over night. The legit folks, innovators, and heavy weights stuck around but many disappeared. Nightlife mirror'd this just was a more steady decline.

The Toronto nightlife scene today from a results of the above and legal fuck ups has made a spread out nightlife scene, with different ends and streets creeping up with smaller and smaller bars. It's hard to make money running a large tradtional club. Unless you got a good compliment like a resto, or other things are your plate like events your not going to make money. The mid-sized places that have food make cash or small bars that can manage numbers and push a lot of volume make cash to but what has resulted is a spread out scene. The old strips I party at have slowed down and become more mainstream. The new bar strips are too chill, none have dance floors and it's hard for me to find venues to work in. places are becoming more small to cater to small groups I. Hopes Ty well feel comfy and spend a ton of money on drinks. Evreything is being cheaped on from decor to music. They will bring in good bartenders to mix you $15 cocktails but serve it to you in a dirty mason jar..

People nowdays, especially chics just don't bother. They can get attention on their phones now and don't need to get dressed up to go to the bars to go get it. Somedays when I'm stumbling home from a rough night I'll see more girls at 8am walking to yoga then I seen in the bars the night prior.

You know it's on it's last breath when the Guvernment and clubbing landmark not only in Toronto but around North America is about to close. I think it has been open 20 years and is one of the few "mega-clubs" that still makes bank. It's closing in a year or two to be made into a condo development. When that place laws then you know the "club" as we know it is dead.

[Laner]

^^^^ That observation made me throw up a little.


If anything nightlife is getting better. Of course gone are the days of basement clubs partying all night with a head full of X. That just might have been the highest point of nightlife ever.

But there are more women out now. You just have to know where to go.

Sorry to say, but brew pubs, sports bars, and cheap beer bars are going to have the worst ratios. And the ugliest women.

Think outside the box. Any city that sells itself to attract top level talent will have places where people can fool themselves into thinking they are "in it". These are the places you will want to go.

[la_mode]

Basically, it's a buyers market for women at nightclubs. What a shock.

American ratios are terrible, there's no prostitution so you have regular (and some attractive) guys who rarely sarge chasing fatties since they know it's easier.

I do remember before the smartphone/always connected era that nightlife was better. I was in college then, which is the only time the ratios ever seemed even.

[kosko]

(11-11-2013 11:51 PM)Laner Wrote:  

^^^^ That observation made me throw up a little.


If anything nightlife is getting better. Of course gone are the days of basement clubs partying all night with a head full of X. That just might have been the highest point of nightlife ever.

But there are more women out now. You just have to know where to go.

Sorry to say, but brew pubs, sports bars, and cheap beer bars are going to have the worst ratios. And the ugliest women.

Think outside the box. Any city that sells itself to attract top level talent will have places where people can fool themselves into thinking they are "in it". These are the places you will want to go.

I think those places have always been around though. Your taking lounges and I have always liked those better then bars but even here they are waning. It's the best model to make cash right now so there are to many of them and to many that are mediocre.

It may just be that he density of women out is less due to venues being more sped out and smaller but I still stand by the fact the quality of these venues has gone into the pits.

I think Vancouver is a different beast though as many are still trying to live that "lifestyle" there. I have friends in Van with meager jobs out having cocktails every night. The debt fuel is still strong there as it is in Toronto but in America, outside of the big 4, it's not the case. I see in America them trying to mimic the mid-size bar/lounge/resto model more and more.

[Therapsid]

In my opinion, nightlife has definitely declined. I'd put it back further than the recession, and say it peaked in the 90's.

Girls used to go out "clubbing". They'd go in pairs not in gangs, with the specific intention to meet men.

The heyday of nightlife in the U.S. was from the 70's to the early 2000's. Think disco to electronica.

This isn't the first time this has happened. The nightlife scene of the jazz age of the 1920's also went under when the depression hit. There continued to be nightlife, just as there is today, but it was more subdued and less of a cultural mainstay.

[Soma]

(11-11-2013 11:51 PM)kosko Wrote:  

You know it's on it's last breath when the Guvernment and clubbing landmark not only in Toronto but around North America is about to close. I think it has been open 20 years and is one of the few "mega-clubs" that still makes bank. It's closing in a year or two to be made into a condo development. When that place laws then you know the "club" as we know it is dead.

Where did you hear that? Rumors that The Guv is closing down have been going around for as long as it's been open. Would be a shame, many memories in that place from early-mid 2000s.

[HeyPete]

To me nightlife took a nosedive in 1994, 1995.

Britian's Summer of Love in 1989 filtered to the US that fall and it was an amazing time. I was on the West Coast then and 1990-1993 were the absolute pinnacle. Damn, those were great times.

There were a few upticks, like when swing got big in 1994, 1995, but then Swingers came out and killed it.

I remember walking up to the Dresden Room on a Monday and it would be lively with good quality 7s to 9s. Any night really. Swingers came out in the summer of 1996 and you couldn't get in anymore. And it became sausage parties, ratios went to shit.

[kosko]

(11-12-2013 12:09 AM)Soma Wrote:  

(11-11-2013 11:51 PM)kosko Wrote:  

You know it's on it's last breath when the Guvernment and clubbing landmark not only in Toronto but around North America is about to close. I think it has been open 20 years and is one of the few "mega-clubs" that still makes bank. It's closing in a year or two to be made into a condo development. When that place laws then you know the "club" as we know it is dead.

Where did you hear that? Rumors that The Guv is closing down have been going around for as long as it's been open. Would be a shame, many memories in that place from early-mid 2000s.

It was sold off the developers a few months back. Rumors are the corp that purchased it was Daniels which is a major condo developer in the City. The value for land in Toronto is just off it's peak, anybody with some sense has cashed in.

http://www.thestar.com/life/2013/04/11/w...dance.html

[speakeasy]

I first started going out around the late 90s when I turned 21. I've felt a palpable decline that began to happen around 2006 or so. Coincidently(or maybe not), this about the same time that the PUA scene started to explode.

I was thinking the other day about what I've observed in night venues. Guys seem to be there looking for women. I see guys looking around like they are on the prowl. I see them looking when a new woman walks in. It's obvious why they are there. But when I look at the women, they don't seem to care about meeting men. They don't flirt with anyone. They aren't swiveling their heads looking for hot guys to give the eye to. They just seem to be there to socialize with friends and take pictures. They just don't seem like they are out to meet men. Or at least they set the bar so high for the type of man they will be receptive to that all but maybe 5% of men in the club can hope to get is a flakey number from her.

[Drazen]

I don't think nightlife changed all that much, I think your perception of nightlife has changed based on experience and the sheer number of times you go out.

Maybe things like texting, facebook and what not have changed, but the basic framework is still there. Nightlife has always been a sausagefest. Women are always flakey. Nothing is new and earthshattering. I personally don't really do nightlife all that much because I used to roll with more friends, get really drunk and had a good time. Now its more of a one track mind. Roll solo, try to hook up that night and that's the end of that, so obviously the places you go and the general enjoyment of the night as a function of itself will be changed.

I mean I still go to the Dresden now and its exactly the same its always been for me (only been going since 1999ish though). Most days of the week there's a decent level of young hollywood and old hollywood chilling there. I do miss my old spots that I used to go to, but these days I really don't muster the energy to go out that far. I have new spots and I only go to places that are logistically close to me, wheras in the past I'd drive clear across town 4-5 times per week and know exactly where the "party was at". I think if I did the same circuit of spots I did 10 years ago, I'd find that the experiences would be exactly the same.

[Christian McQueen]

I would say it's more of a science now and where you go and how you make an impression, will either make nightlife a great dream, or a terrible nightmare.

That's why I wrote a book about it; because I constantly heard cats complaining.

[HeyPete]

(11-12-2013 12:36 AM)PartyonBro Wrote:  

I don't think nightlife changed all that much, I think your perception of nightlife has changed based on experience and the sheer number of times you go out.

Maybe things like texting, facebook and what not have changed, but the basic framework is still there. Nightlife has always been a sausagefest. Women are always flakey. Nothing is new and earthshattering. I personally don't really do nightlife all that much because I used to roll with more friends, get really drunk and had a good time. Now its more of a one track mind. Roll solo, try to hook up that night and that's the end of that, so obviously the places you go and the general enjoyment of the night as a function of itself will be changed.

I mean I still go to the Dresden now and its exactly the same its always been for me (only been going since 1999ish though). Most days of the week there's a decent level of young hollywood and old hollywood chilling there. I do miss my old spots that I used to go to, but these days I really don't muster the energy to go out that far. I have new spots and I only go to places that are logistically close to me, wheras in the past I'd drive clear across town 4-5 times per week and know exactly where the "party was at". I think if I did the same circuit of spots I did 10 years ago, I'd find that the experiences would be exactly the same.

That stretch of Vermont used to be really good in the early, mid 90s. There were a couple of other watering holes besides Dresden. There was one where that Fred62 is on the corner and there was a 24-hour coffee house called Onyx. It was perfect for 4 a.m., 5 a.m. game.

[Drazen]

(11-12-2013 12:46 AM)HeyPete Wrote:  

That stretch of Vermont used to be really good in the early, mid 90s. There were a couple of other watering holes besides Dresden. There was one where that Fred62 is on the corner and there was a 24-hour coffee house called Onyx. It was perfect for 4 a.m., 5 a.m. game.

Yeah, I had really good times there back in the days. I'd do that circuit several times per month Dresden-3 of Clubs-Good Luck Bar-Jones-Formosa and a few others I probably forgot about. Totally miss that era.

[Drazen]

I think the litmus test is to go out to a new city, in the hot area of town. Go to the bars/nightclubs and you should have an incredible night simply for the fact that its new and you haven't done it before. Whenever I go to a new city or hell, even go to a city I haven't been to in a minute, my nightlife experiences are as good as ever. I go to Toronto for the first time, I guarantee I'll have a kickass time. I go to DC, I don't care about all the crap I've seen online about how bad it is, chances are I'll probably have a good time. Sure, girls have smaller attention spans perhaps, but you'll just have to deal with it.

[HeyPete]

(11-12-2013 12:49 AM)PartyonBro Wrote:  

(11-12-2013 12:46 AM)HeyPete Wrote:  

That stretch of Vermont used to be really good in the early, mid 90s. There were a couple of other watering holes besides Dresden. There was one where that Fred62 is on the corner and there was a 24-hour coffee house called Onyx. It was perfect for 4 a.m., 5 a.m. game.

Yeah, I had really good times there back in the days. I'd do that circuit several times per month Dresden-3 of Clubs-Good Luck Bar-Jones-Formosa and a few others I probably forgot about. Totally miss that era.

Jones. Totally forgot about that place.
My favorite place, but it wasn't walking distance was across the river in Atwater Village called The Roost. They used to have these hot Thai bartenders, who look ancient now. But back then, it was a little gem. Hipsters took it over several years back, but it's still not too bad.

[j r]

The NY thread got me thinking about tnis and I was actually going to start a new thread, but better just to say it here. It's not that nightlife is in decline. Bars, clubs, restaurants are all booming. In DC, every new place that opens is immediately packed.

What has changed is that there used to be a singles scene and it is all but gone in some cities. DC for instance has almost nothing that I would call a singles scene. People out in DC are almost all in large groups and not particularly interested in meeting anyone else, unless that someone else has some introduction into the group. If you don't know someone, you're likely assumed to be a "rando" "creepy" potential "date rapist. "

Ten, fifteen years ago you could go out and find two girls out together who were actively interested in meeting men. You could go out to a bar in the middle of the week and find a girl having a drink at the bar by herself. There are still a few laces like this left, but they are few and far between.

[Brosemite]

In Dallas, Thursday/Sunday nights pretty much disappeared in late 2008 after the financial crisis/recession when they were booming in the past. What also ended up happening is that the entry level sales jobs that were much more attainable in the past with a marketing degree also became harder to acquire as well (not to mention crazy layoffs) so you had less professionals partying on a weekly basis. I think trends changed permanently as a result too, but Tuesday nights gained steam in 2009 here while different options started popping up in that process.

[Screwston]

Wrote about this last year
http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-14700.html

Probably a combination of smart phones, more fat girls than ever before and money being tight for young people. Smart phones and huge groups of girls with no intention.of meeting anyone is a bad mix.

[AnonymousBosch]

(11-12-2013 12:25 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  

I was thinking the other day about what I've observed in night venues. Guys seem to be there looking for women. I see guys looking around like they are on the prowl. I see them looking when a new woman walks in. It's obvious why they are there. But when I look at the women, they don't seem to care about meeting men. They don't flirt with anyone. They aren't swiveling their heads looking for hot guys to give the eye to. They just seem to be there to socialize with friends and take pictures. They just don't seem like they are out to meet men. Or at least they set the bar so high for the type of man they will be receptive to that all but maybe 5% of men in the club can hope to get is a flakey number from her.

The current generation of young women have been fed through a system where they've very rarely been exposed to any kind of actual negative criticism of their looks, behaviour and abilities.

They are addicted to devices that offer them a constant stream of positive attention and self-affirmation beyond anything a male partner is physically capable of delivering. Men are fallible, disappoint, and challenge her over-inflated self-image. What use is one man in a bar telling her she's beautiful when it can be 50 orbiters liking a facebook photo.

Women are simply moving beyond the need for the attention of non-virtual men for social and self-validation.

Give it a few more years. If they don't want to fuck you, and you're of no immediate use to them, I suspect the only reaction you'll get out of women is complete indifference or narcissistic fury.

[All or Nothing]

(11-12-2013 03:46 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

The current generation of young women have been fed through a system where they've very rarely been exposed to any kind of actual negative criticism of their looks, behaviour and abilities.

They are addicted to devices that offer them a constant stream of positive attention and self-affirmation beyond anything a male partner is physically capable of delivering. Men are fallible, disappoint, and challenge her over-inflated self-image. What use is one man in a bar telling her she's beautiful when it can be 50 orbiters liking a facebook photo.

Women are simply moving beyond the need for the attention of non-virtual men for social and self-validation.

Give it a few more years. If they don't want to fuck you, and you're of no immediate use to them, I suspect the only reaction you'll get out of women is complete indifference or narcissistic fury.

I agree, but I think we need to take this theory one step further.

Personally, I think Facebook will inevitably hack the collective male minds and forever turn us into cyberslaves as feminism reigns in a new era of mankind.