[Ryre]

This post is inspired partly by http://www.returnofkings.com/19689/7-mos...t-insults, partly by the National Geographic special on alpha males, and partly by things in my own life.

No doubt dividing men into alphas and betas is a simplification, but it does seem like there are sets of traits that go together. The "feminist insults" loser, virgin, and mommy issues have some truth to them, in that they describe a unified personality--it isn't random that they go together. Myself, I have some game, but if aggressive, confident and comfortable with self/women is one set of traits, and passive, insecure, and uncomfortable is the other, I know which set I got stuck with (including not a great relationship with my mom.)

I recently realized that the unifying element of it all is this feeling: if they saw the real me, they wouldn't like it. E.g., with my mother, "If I opened up with her about my life, and she told me what she really thought of me, it would be bad."

With women, I can't say it any better than The Last Psychiatrist:

There is a group of you who will read this and feel enraged by a double standard, in front of men women get to be sexy, talk about sex, flaunt it, but men can't introduce the topic, can't ask questions, can't pursue-- can't even look-- because then they're labeled as predators. If you're in this group you don't get it. The censorship doesn't come from women, it comes from you. If you feel like you can't ask her about her sex because you'll sound like a repressed stalker, you are, in fact, a repressed stalker. You're not going to kill her, ok, fair enough, but you aren't going to leave her alone, ever. If Trina rolls bleary eyed into the cubicle and says, "wow, I got totally plowed by this guy last night" not only are you not going to get any coding done that day, but you will make it impossible for her to ever get any coding done or keep her cell number because of your subtle pushes for more stories and passive aggressive inquiries about her relationship status and near constant innuendo. http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/06/a..._look.html

In sports, work, other areas of life: one natural alpha I know said of himself that "when the clock is ticking down, I want the ball in my hands." Why, because he is a selfish dick? No, because he believes that he is the best person, that when someone needs to step up for the group, it might as well be him.

Years ago a friend of mine was offering to lend me a few bucks, and I was acting uncomfortable and unsure about it. And the friend said, "What, are you not going to pay me back?" It was my own doubt about my ability and good intentions that was causing my doubt and discomfort.

In the Nat Geo special on alpha male behaviors, it would be easy to focus on the externals of body language, voice, etc., and miss what I think is going on underneath. Why does the one guy come out on top in the group of mechanics? Is he thinking, "I'd better take up space and use dominant body language on these guys?" I doubt it. I bet he's thinking something more like, "I want this job/show to be a success and for everyone to have fun, and I am the best person to make that happen."

As the show pointed out towards the end, a key part of the alpha male role is taking responsibility for the group. In the final sequence of the show, with the 'gorilla' loose at the zoo, Chris, who emerged as the alpha, took the lead in comforting the frightened girl, even to the point of talking over another guy who was already doing it. What was he thinking--"I'd better outmanuever this guy so I can be alpha"? Again, I doubt it. I bet it was more like, "She needs to be comforted and I am the best person to make sure it is done right." And in the end he is the right person, because he follows through and takes responsibility for the group.

Stepping up, taking responsibility, and believing that unless proved otherwise you are the best person for the job--that's the essence. And again, with women, it's a matter of avoiding the toxic beta-male angry-nice-guy spiral: she's hot/she wouldn't like me/I hate her for being hot and not liking me. And now he's taken himself out of the game without a single at-bat.

While the alpha says, "I'm safe, I am not going to hurt her, I'm good in bed, I'll give her a good experience. If it is going to be one of the guys here, it might as well be me." And if it doesn't work for him that time, it's just because this particular girl wasn't feeling it right then. It doesn't say anything about him--he doesn't feel like "I showed her my true self and she rejected me, just like I suspected she would."

As an alpha friend of a friend once said, "I wasn't going to hit on her, but I didn't want to hurt her feelings."

[horn]

While the alpha says, "I'm safe, I am not going to hurt her, I'm good in bed, I'll give her a good experience. If it is going to be one of the guys here, it might as well be me." And if it doesn't work for him that time, it's just because this particular girl wasn't feeling it right then.

It doesn't say anything about him--he doesn't feel like "I showed her my true self and she rejected me, just like I suspected she would."

This is exactly right. They'll be another girl coming by in 2 minutes. 2 seconds if you're at a bar or club.

[Ryre]

I am sorry this post did not get more comments; I wish I'd used a question mark in the title, as this isn't me saying I have the last word on the subject but more just attempting a synthesis of a mindset that doesn't come easily for me.

It's occurred to me since I wrote it that it might boil down even further to: the essence of alpha is being able to make and keep commitments to others and yourself.

Give me the ball when the clock is ticking down: I promise I'll give it my all.

Borrowing money from a friend: you can trust my commitment to pay you back, because I trust my own commitment.

Approaching a girl: I am committing to myself, and to her, that I can back this up, sexually and otherwise.

Getting in a physical confrontation or fight: Is it the other guy you are afraid of? Or are you unable to commit to yourself that you won't break, that even if you lose you can deal with the consequences?

Personally I have always found it hard to make commitments. Breaking a commitment to myself seems like the ultimate letdown, so I just avoid doing it. And, strangely, one thing that inhibits my ability to be social and outgoing is a sense of "What are they going to want from me? What if I can't supply it?" It's as if just starting a conversation is a commitment of some kind.

Maybe liking and feeling comfortable with yourself is not a matter of thinking that you are awesome. Maybe it is just a matter of being able to trust your own word. How much can you dislike yourself if you are able to say, "I will do X," and know in your heart that you are at least going to try to do it with the best of your ability? And if you can't rely on yourself to that basic degree, how can you come across as strong to other people?

[soup]

(10-20-2013 02:23 PM)Ryre Wrote:  

This post is inspired partly by http://www.returnofkings.com/19689/7-mos...t-insults, partly by the National Geographic special on alpha males, and partly by things in my own life.

No doubt dividing men into alphas and betas is a simplification, but it does seem like there are sets of traits that go together. The "feminist insults" loser, virgin, and mommy issues have some truth to them, in that they describe a unified personality--it isn't random that they go together. Myself, I have some game, but if aggressive, confident and comfortable with self/women is one set of traits, and passive, insecure, and uncomfortable is the other, I know which set I got stuck with (including not a great relationship with my mom.)

I recently realized that the unifying element of it all is this feeling: if they saw the real me, they wouldn't like it. E.g., with my mother, "If I opened up with her about my life, and she told me what she really thought of me, it would be bad."

With women, I can't say it any better than The Last Psychiatrist:

There is a group of you who will read this and feel enraged by a double standard, in front of men women get to be sexy, talk about sex, flaunt it, but men can't introduce the topic, can't ask questions, can't pursue-- can't even look-- because then they're labeled as predators. If you're in this group you don't get it. The censorship doesn't come from women, it comes from you. If you feel like you can't ask her about her sex because you'll sound like a repressed stalker, you are, in fact, a repressed stalker. You're not going to kill her, ok, fair enough, but you aren't going to leave her alone, ever. If Trina rolls bleary eyed into the cubicle and says, "wow, I got totally plowed by this guy last night" not only are you not going to get any coding done that day, but you will make it impossible for her to ever get any coding done or keep her cell number because of your subtle pushes for more stories and passive aggressive inquiries about her relationship status and near constant innuendo. http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/06/a..._look.html

In sports, work, other areas of life: one natural alpha I know said of himself that "when the clock is ticking down, I want the ball in my hands." Why, because he is a selfish dick? No, because he believes that he is the best person, that when someone needs to step up for the group, it might as well be him.

Years ago a friend of mine was offering to lend me a few bucks, and I was acting uncomfortable and unsure about it. And the friend said, "What, are you not going to pay me back?" It was my own doubt about my ability and good intentions that was causing my doubt and discomfort.

In the Nat Geo special on alpha male behaviors, it would be easy to focus on the externals of body language, voice, etc., and miss what I think is going on underneath. Why does the one guy come out on top in the group of mechanics? Is he thinking, "I'd better take up space and use dominant body language on these guys?" I doubt it. I bet he's thinking something more like, "I want this job/show to be a success and for everyone to have fun, and I am the best person to make that happen."

As the show pointed out towards the end, a key part of the alpha male role is taking responsibility for the group. In the final sequence of the show, with the 'gorilla' loose at the zoo, Chris, who emerged as the alpha, took the lead in comforting the frightened girl, even to the point of talking over another guy who was already doing it. What was he thinking--"I'd better outmanuever this guy so I can be alpha"? Again, I doubt it. I bet it was more like, "She needs to be comforted and I am the best person to make sure it is done right." And in the end he is the right person, because he follows through and takes responsibility for the group.

Stepping up, taking responsibility, and believing that unless proved otherwise you are the best person for the job--that's the essence. And again, with women, it's a matter of avoiding the toxic beta-male angry-nice-guy spiral: she's hot/she wouldn't like me/I hate her for being hot and not liking me. And now he's taken himself out of the game without a single at-bat.

While the alpha says, "I'm safe, I am not going to hurt her, I'm good in bed, I'll give her a good experience. If it is going to be one of the guys here, it might as well be me." And if it doesn't work for him that time, it's just because this particular girl wasn't feeling it right then. It doesn't say anything about him--he doesn't feel like "I showed her my true self and she rejected me, just like I suspected she would."

As an alpha friend of a friend once said, "I wasn't going to hit on her, but I didn't want to hurt her feelings."

It can be argued that the we all share the same "true self". Underneath all of our particular anxieties we are essentially the branches of a single tree.

When you get your game together, you are using techniques that you didn't come up with- you own them and you don't. The girl is going for your game. This why you can't rejected by a girl either. She isn't rejecting you, she is rejecting your bad game.

The more you get towards your true self, the more you realize that you are connected to everything and that you aren't just a homunculus hiding inside of a skull.

Your true self includes women. That's why they can connect easily with you. You are just another part of them and visa versa. You are the compliment to them. That's why they are drawn to you.

Game is just cleaning the dirt off the true self so it can shine.

[scorpion]

You are overthinking this, and projecting your own thinking onto the alpha man.

Because you are the type of guy who sits around and thinks about things before acting, you assume that alpha men must do this as well. This is an incorrect assumption.

Alpha men do not think about whether or not they should do something, or why they should do it. They just act in the moment.

It's not that alpha men think up a different motivation for their actions than beta men, it's that they act prior to formulating any coherent internal motivation. They go by instinct.

Extroverted, alpha men are not self-reflective and second-guessing like introverted, beta man. It's a totally different style of interacting with the world. This is why most betas, even those who have studied a lot of game and put in a lot of practice, can only feign alphaness at best. When their frame gets tested by a true alpha, the vast majority will crumble back down to beta status.

Most guys are not natural alphas, nor should they try to be. Nor should they get down on themselves for failing to behave in an alpha manner all the time. Guys who are not naturally alpha should simply strive to be more alpha than they have been in the past, and just focus on self-improvement.

But an introverted beta who is prone to self-reflection is simply never going to transform himself into a spontaneous, aggressive, instinctual natural alpha. It would require a totally re-wiring of the brain to do so.

[scandibro]

"..."when the clock is ticking down, I want the ball in my hands." Why, because he is a selfish dick?.."

Maybe not a dick, but definitely selfish. He wants the glory and the attention. There is nothing altruistic about it.

[Ryre]

(10-21-2013 01:18 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

You are overthinking this, and projecting your own thinking onto the alpha man.

Because you are the type of guy who sits around and thinks about things before acting, you assume that alpha men must do this as well. This is an incorrect assumption.

Alpha men do not think about whether or not they should do something, or why they should do it. They just act in the moment.

It's not that alpha men think up a different motivation for their actions than beta men, it's that they act prior to formulating any coherent internal motivation. They go by instinct.

Well, of course by "thinking," I don't mean that the alpha actually has these thoughts running through his mind before he acts. Nor to I think the beta explicitly thinks these thoughts before not acting. I'm talking more about underlying instincts, habits of mind, unquestioned assumptions, etc. In fact the actual thoughts running through the mind--i.e. the hamster--may be quite different. But I still think I am onto something as far as the underlying attitudes.