[Aliblahba]

Riogonad, have you thought about going to the doctor for some tests? 2 years is a long time for the same problem. Or moving to another country where better food is accessible?

[RexImperator]

(10-01-2013 11:48 AM)Hades Wrote:  

I'm losing shitloads of weight by just eating stewed pork or chicken, some cruciferous vegetables (and juices), protein shakes, and two or three bananas here and there. Don't even bother to count macros, I just eat until I'm full.

What was your diet before? Just curious, because I have a theory that the worse it was before, the faster you will lose weight.

[evilhei]

Been away from home for 10 days wihtout option to make my own food. I can't wait to eat the 500g steik and the greens beans etc. Im so tired of the white bread, pasta, rice that they serve here in every restaurants. Wish there was more these kind of paleo restaurants where you can order only 2 things - meat and vegitables.

[bodmon]

i think that paleo is a fad diet. a lot of what it says is agreeable - meat is good, saturated fat is not bad, veggies are good, stuffing yourself with lotsa carbs is not the best - but its overlying food restriction is problematic. here's a good video arguing against it:

[el mechanico]

To follow it strictly you'd probably need to rent an apartment above the health food store that's open 24 hours a day, I say keep it simple, low carbs, no bread, rice, pasta, sugar lots of water. I order Stromboli for lunch sometimes and just cut down the top and eat it with a fork dipping it in marinara. These low carb hacks are the only way to stay sane doing this, the diet will eat you alive if you're busy and not that organized

[JayJuanGee]

(10-02-2013 04:04 PM)bodmon Wrote:  

i think that paleo is a fad diet. a lot of what it says is agreeable - meat is good, saturated fat is not bad, veggies are good, stuffing yourself with lotsa carbs is not the best - but its overlying food restriction is problematic. here's a good video arguing against it:

In essence, I am NOT convinced that this video presentation is much of a debunking of Paleo.

The guy in the video presents a lot of strawman arguments about Paleo, and then one by one knocks them down. He also seems to overly categorize Paleo, and in essence, through his over categorization, I am NOT sure whether he is describing Paleo, but his description makes it easier for him to add to his many arguments to knock down Paleo.

Paleo does not need to be so strict and technical as to how the guy in the video makes it out to be in order to be beneficial to each of us RVF guys.

Yes, possibly the term Paleo is a fad; however, I would not consider the concept of eating natural whole foods as a fad and attempting to eat foods that our body can best tolerate. Call it Paleo or call it MUD - I don't think the name matters to the concepts of eating whole and natural foods and figuring out our tolerance levels to various kinds of foods (or call it a rose.. he he he).

Certainly, our bodies can tolerate a certain amount of abuse and even getting much of our diet wrong in the short-term and especially it seems when we are younger, we can tolerate more abuse in terms of nutrition (but, unwittingly, the abuse - lets say by eating too much sugar and sugar-like products, and eating the wrong kinds of fats (trans fats) - may come back to bite us later)

Nonetheless, there is a lot of evidence that processed foods are bad - and especially sugar-like processed foods, yet processing foods remains a large money earning industry and people continue to buy the stuff either b/c they think a processed box of X is good for them, or they like the taste of X or they are addicted to X or they just may not realize the non-nutrition of X.

Surely, some people give more thought to what they put in their mouths than others, and even with that some people get the nutrition wrong b/c they getting their information from the wrong sources.... personally, I tend to believe that a lot of vegetarians have good intentions about health and sustainability and all that lovey dovey feminist stuff, but I think on the nutrition level they get it wrong and their bodies suffer for it.

For example, about getting information from the wrong sources, I do not follow my doctor's advice about cutting out red meat and about cutting out saturated fat and other fats b/c even though he is a doctor, he does not know what he is talking about when it comes to this nutrition stuff. He is merely following the standards of care that are pushed upon him and his profession by the insurance companies and the drug companies. They do not have any incentive for us to get better (even though my doctor may follow this without bad intentions).

I do cut transfats from my diet and most processed fats including vegetable oils - though sometimes any of this kind of stuff can slip into my diet, like by eating food at a party, and I try to find a balance that works for me and also allows some sociability without being too much of a prude about what i eat.

It does seem that a lot of guys on RVF do see through the media propaganda about nutrition and understand the benefits of natural whole food eating - and especially to cut out sugar-like foods and to cut out transfats and some processed foods.

Yet, at the same time, there does NOT seem to be consensus on certain aspects of what is nutritious, and in that regard, each of us has to follow what works for us.

Also, we have to take some advantage over the benefits of a lack of consensus. In this regard, I really get some pleasure from the fact that I can buy 5 dozen eggs for sometimes as low as $5, and I believe the reason for such a bargain is that people do not generally realize the value of eating whole eggs and those bad boys are some of the most nutritious foods... yes.. whole - yolk and all. The yolk is probably the most nutritious part, and people have been told (and believe it) to throw it out.. go figure...

Sometimes, certain health events in someone's life will cause them to reconsider preconceptions about nutrition and the necessity for action or change. My search for nutrition remains ongoing, and has been going on for a little less than 3 years, and I began to realize some of the benefits of low carb about 2 years ago. Several times, in the earlier stages of my research, I was mislead by mainstream dogma. Nonetheless, I am still tweaking my ways of eating, but I have been following a kind of low-carb / paleo approach for about 2 years.

BTW, I have never had my goal to lose weight, but instead my goal was to improve my muscle to fat ratios. A few years ago, people would tell me that i could stand to lose some weight, and I kept saying that i am not trying to lose weight and I eat as much as I want of whatever i want. When I largely reduced the carbs, I went from about 200 lbs to now 175 lbs (I'm 5' 9" by the way), and I no longer get snarky comments about my weight. People who know me tend to give compliments about my appearance and my weight (yes, I lost a few inches on my waist-line). I still deny any goals to lose weight, but I do feel better at my current weight, and i believe my energy remains pretty good.. given my personal circumstances.

[The Lizard of Oz]

RioNomad, it sounds very much like you have IBS (Irritable Bowel Syndrome) and bad gut flora. If you don't get that sorted out, the bad bugs -- the wrong kinds of bacteria -- will continue feasting on whatever diet you feed them.

What you need first and foremost is a probiotic and there is one that is far superior to all others, VSL#3.

Buy the 30-packs (regular or unflavored, same difference) and take 1 a day, mixed into something liquid (yogurt is great but you can also stir into water or anything). Keep refrigerated.

It's not cheap but it's very powerful stuff and it's likely to greatly improve or quite possibly cure your symptoms. You may also be able to get it prescribed and have your insurance pay for it; ask your GI doc. But either way, get it.

If you want to look at studies there have been more and more coming out showing very significant results for VSL#3, this is a good place to start. The importance of gut flora generally is becoming increasingly widely recognized.

(10-01-2013 12:27 PM)RioNomad Wrote:  

Been trying to do paleo. I have crazy stomach problems, and I think an egg allergy. I have very little energy during the day after eating. Feel sluggish and fatigued. Get headaches and mad brain fog after I eat, and I have to eat something sugary like fruit or a pb and j to get rid of them. Then they come back an hour later. Super irritable and moody like a woman. Bloating, feeling full after a few bites of food, gas, etc.

In short, I'm a fucking mess. Takes a huge toll on my life. After I eat I can not concentrate to work st all due to brain fog and fatigue.

I read paleo helps many people with my problems. I just need to get a meal plan down and keep my fridge stocked so I don't revert to eating a pb and j when I'm hungry, like I'm doing right now.

[GameTheory]

(10-01-2013 09:47 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  



Delicious dirt. Nom nom nom.

Oh yeah, chick on the left 8/10 WB.

[babelfish669]

(10-01-2013 12:27 PM)RioNomad Wrote:  

Been trying to do paleo. I have crazy stomach problems, and I think an egg allergy. I have very little energy during the day after eating. Feel sluggish and fatigued. Get headaches and mad brain fog after I eat, and I have to eat something sugary like fruit or a pb and j to get rid of them. Then they come back an hour later. Super irritable and moody like a woman. Bloating, feeling full after a few bites of food, gas, etc.

In short, I'm a fucking mess. Takes a huge toll on my life. After I eat I can not concentrate to work st all due to brain fog and fatigue.

I read paleo helps many people with my problems. I just need to get a meal plan down and keep my fridge stocked so I don't revert to eating a pb and j when I'm hungry, like I'm doing right now.

I agree with The Lizard of Oz's response. These symptoms sound almost identical to one of my friends who developed problems after a large dose of antibiotics.

You should move somewhere you can get 100% fresh food continually. Unless you are really pro-active with this one it will cause trouble for a very long time.

[RCP]

Would this be a beneficial diet for someone with a fast metabolism who's trying to gain weight?

[Hencredible Casanova]

(10-04-2013 05:53 PM)RCP Wrote:  

Would this be a beneficial diet for someone with a fast metabolism who's trying to gain weight?

Yup. Up the fat and protein intake. The fats will make you fuller and less hungry as well.

[JayJuanGee]

(10-04-2013 06:16 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(10-04-2013 05:53 PM)RCP Wrote:  

Would this be a beneficial diet for someone with a fast metabolism who's trying to gain weight?

Yup. Up the fat and protein intake. The fats will make you fuller and less hungry as well.

HC: I was trying to find some useful internet leads on the topic of paleo and weight gain, but most of what i found was just commentary.

I found one link about coconut oil, and in essence the farmers thought that if they gave coconut oil to pigs, they would gain wait, but the opposite happened. The pigs lost weight.

http://www.faim.org/oils/coconutmiraclefat.html


I agree to gain weight, a guy should up his proteins, and he may need to add some carbs and/or dairy to his diet - though some paleo people are against dairy.

In any event, if I were trying to gain weight, I would DECREASE fat intake, for the reason you (HC) stated, fats make a guy full and suppresses his appetite, in a healthy way, so long as the fats are healthy fats (such as coconut oil, butter, animal fats, fish oils)(not trans fats, vegetable oils such as margarine or other processed fats - usually says partially hydrogenated or some other processing mumbo jumbo).

Nonetheless, you definitely need the good fats and not the bad fats in your diet, but if you are trying to gain weight, you would want to moderate the intake of fats b/c they cause you to eat less.

I have been at about the same weight for the last year (and before that I had lost about 25 lbs).

These days, I strive to eat more fat and fewer carbs, but I have always, during this period eaten as much as I want, just limiting the carb intake.

Personally, I believe that people do not need any carbs to live and to lead a healthy life (there is no such thing as an essential carb; however, there are essential fats and there are essential proteins); however, since carbs are all over the place in the market and the food supply, probably I eat more of them than I would prefer, and my current diet is probably about roughly:

30-50% fat
30-45% protein

and 10-25% carbs

If I were to push towards attempting to loose more weight then I would attempt to cut more of the carbs maybe to 5-10%.

If I were to push towards gaining weight, I would increase the quantity eaten and only tweak the ratios to strive for less fat and more protein and maybe slightly more carbs (little to no corn, soy wheat), which ratios would look something like this:

15-25% fat
40-60% protein

and 15-30% carbs

The devil may be in the details however, for what kinds of foods are considered nutritious within the macro-nutrient categories.

[Hencredible Casanova]

JayJuan - I meant without mentioning that a high fat, high protein diet should go along with a routine weight training regimen. You'll put on muscle which weighs more than fat, thus gaining weight.

[JayJuanGee]

(10-04-2013 09:40 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

JayJuan - I meant without mentioning that a high fat, high protein diet should go along with a routine weight training regimen. You'll put on muscle which weighs more than fat, thus gaining weight.

Even without the exercise component, I would recommend lowering eating of fat if a person had a goal to gain weight.

I agree that Exercise might be a good thing for gaining muscle, and in that regard resistance training on the weights as you mentioned rather than cardio would be best.

If a person does not exercise very much, then probably some cardio will be necessary to warm up to get to the point of being able to tolerate resistance training. But, if a guy wants to gain weight, probably, the cardio should be limited (maybe just 5-15 minutes to warm up), then go straight into the resistance/weight training.

[Hades]

(10-02-2013 02:06 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  

(10-01-2013 11:48 AM)Hades Wrote:  

I'm losing shitloads of weight by just eating stewed pork or chicken, some cruciferous vegetables (and juices), protein shakes, and two or three bananas here and there. Don't even bother to count macros, I just eat until I'm full.

What was your diet before? Just curious, because I have a theory that the worse it was before, the faster you will lose weight.

My job is pretty serious manual labor but yeah, beforehands my diet was pretty bad. I ate more or less whatever I wanted, would hit up McDumpsters, drink a liter of soda, eat ice cream, that kind of shit. Basically like all the saddies and fatties do, the one point they make is that it's convenient (completely true).

Basically I went from 215 to 205 in about a week and a half on 'crock pot paleo' (just several pounds of stewed chicken breasts, celery, carrots, onion, bouillon cubes, and low-carb whatnot) and heavy manual labor. Then I went from 205 to 197-ish in about two and a half weeks of the same. "Carb refeeds" (getting drunk) once per week, that sort of thing.

A typical day looked like -
Noonish: Wake up
Eat one to two bowls of stew

7:00 PM: Lunch
Eat three bananas, large protein shake (2-3 scoops)

11:30 PM: Dinner
One or two bowls of stew, or large cut of meat; possibly five or six ounces of cheese

Friday Night Carb Refeed:
Six to fifteen beers depending on how late I stay up
Possibly a six pack of gas station donuts
Some sort of pile of fried chicken wings.

Saturday Morning Hangover Refeed:
Large amount of vegetable juices
Omelet with leftover vegetables

I'm getting down to the desired leanness so it's mandatory that I either eat more stew (expensive) or do bigger refeeds (cheap as shit). Starting out though if you're dieting you want to keep your carb refeeds pretty small. For the most part I just do them because I could feel my testosterone slipping on purely low-carb paleo/keto - getting hard was getting to be a problem when it never was before. You gotta find what works for you I suppose.

[JayJuanGee]

(10-05-2013 02:03 PM)Hades Wrote:  

(10-02-2013 02:06 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  

(10-01-2013 11:48 AM)Hades Wrote:  

I'm losing shitloads of weight by just eating stewed pork or chicken, some cruciferous vegetables (and juices), protein shakes, and two or three bananas here and there. Don't even bother to count macros, I just eat until I'm full.

What was your diet before? Just curious, because I have a theory that the worse it was before, the faster you will lose weight.

My job is pretty serious manual labor but yeah, beforehands my diet was pretty bad. I ate more or less whatever I wanted, would hit up McDumpsters, drink a liter of soda, eat ice cream, that kind of shit. Basically like all the saddies and fatties do, the one point they make is that it's convenient (completely true).

Basically I went from 215 to 205 in about a week and a half on 'crock pot paleo' (just several pounds of stewed chicken breasts, celery, carrots, onion, bouillon cubes, and low-carb whatnot) and heavy manual labor. Then I went from 205 to 197-ish in about two and a half weeks of the same. "Carb refeeds" (getting drunk) once per week, that sort of thing.

A typical day looked like -
Noonish: Wake up
Eat one to two bowls of stew

7:00 PM: Lunch
Eat three bananas, large protein shake (2-3 scoops)

11:30 PM: Dinner
One or two bowls of stew, or large cut of meat; possibly five or six ounces of cheese

Friday Night Carb Refeed:
Six to fifteen beers depending on how late I stay up
Possibly a six pack of gas station donuts
Some sort of pile of fried chicken wings.

Saturday Morning Hangover Refeed:
Large amount of vegetable juices
Omelet with leftover vegetables

I'm getting down to the desired leanness so it's mandatory that I either eat more stew (expensive) or do bigger refeeds (cheap as shit). Starting out though if you're dieting you want to keep your carb refeeds pretty small. For the most part I just do them because I could feel my testosterone slipping on purely low-carb paleo/keto - getting hard was getting to be a problem when it never was before. You gotta find what works for you I suppose.

Hades:
Basically, it seems that you have lost about 15-20 lbs in about a month's time, and do you think 197-ish is a good weight for you?

Your refeeds seem a bit like junk food, but maybe it would be o.k. to have such splurges if those splurges are only about once a week. You may be better off during your splurges with mixing in higher quality carbs - b/c donuts are probably a complete waste of calories.. but beer may be o.k, at least there is some social benefits with beer, but yeah, you are right these are personal choices.

I personally do not believe that systematic (built-in) refeeds are necessary or beneficial, and i suppose that ultimately, i get in some various random refeeds by coincidence every few weeks when I decide to splurge a bit on carbs during some social event that i attend. However, if i have a lot of social events that are scheduled around the same time-period, like around the holidays, I am NOT going to splurge during each of the events. I may splurge at one or two of the events, but I would exercise some restraint in my splurges and the kind of foods that I ate.. like I may take samplings of a large different variety of desserts (really junk food), but I would not eat large servings of any of the items that I know are bad for me (like bread, i may try a piece or two, but i would not eat a whole slice b/c I know it does not have much of any nutrient value and it will only cause me to crave more carbs later).

And, yes, I agree, we each come to our own comfort levels concerning these kinds of choices, and sometimes we evolve with our choices in order to rethink what we are doing based on how our body is reacting or some times our bodies may need a little unpredictable deviation from patterns of eating in order to have better responses in terms of energy or stamina (and surely quantity and quality of erections could be a good measurement of a good effect of nutrition choices).

[Hades]

(10-05-2013 04:08 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

(10-05-2013 02:03 PM)Hades Wrote:  

(10-02-2013 02:06 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  

(10-01-2013 11:48 AM)Hades Wrote:  

I'm losing shitloads of weight by just eating stewed pork or chicken, some cruciferous vegetables (and juices), protein shakes, and two or three bananas here and there. Don't even bother to count macros, I just eat until I'm full.

What was your diet before? Just curious, because I have a theory that the worse it was before, the faster you will lose weight.

My job is pretty serious manual labor but yeah, beforehands my diet was pretty bad. I ate more or less whatever I wanted, would hit up McDumpsters, drink a liter of soda, eat ice cream, that kind of shit. Basically like all the saddies and fatties do, the one point they make is that it's convenient (completely true).

Basically I went from 215 to 205 in about a week and a half on 'crock pot paleo' (just several pounds of stewed chicken breasts, celery, carrots, onion, bouillon cubes, and low-carb whatnot) and heavy manual labor. Then I went from 205 to 197-ish in about two and a half weeks of the same. "Carb refeeds" (getting drunk) once per week, that sort of thing.

A typical day looked like -
Noonish: Wake up
Eat one to two bowls of stew

7:00 PM: Lunch
Eat three bananas, large protein shake (2-3 scoops)

11:30 PM: Dinner
One or two bowls of stew, or large cut of meat; possibly five or six ounces of cheese

Friday Night Carb Refeed:
Six to fifteen beers depending on how late I stay up
Possibly a six pack of gas station donuts
Some sort of pile of fried chicken wings.

Saturday Morning Hangover Refeed:
Large amount of vegetable juices
Omelet with leftover vegetables

I'm getting down to the desired leanness so it's mandatory that I either eat more stew (expensive) or do bigger refeeds (cheap as shit). Starting out though if you're dieting you want to keep your carb refeeds pretty small. For the most part I just do them because I could feel my testosterone slipping on purely low-carb paleo/keto - getting hard was getting to be a problem when it never was before. You gotta find what works for you I suppose.

Hades:
Basically, it seems that you have lost about 15-20 lbs in about a month's time, and do you think 197-ish is a good weight for you?

Your refeeds seem a bit like junk food, but maybe it would be o.k. to have such splurges if those splurges are only about once a week. You may be better off during your splurges with mixing in higher quality carbs - b/c donuts are probably a complete waste of calories.. but beer may be o.k, at least there is some social benefits with beer, but yeah, you are right these are personal choices.

I personally do not believe that systematic (built-in) refeeds are necessary or beneficial, and i suppose that ultimately, i get in some various random refeeds by coincidence every few weeks when I decide to splurge a bit on carbs during some social event that i attend. However, if i have a lot of social events that are scheduled around the same time-period, like around the holidays, I am NOT going to splurge during each of the events. I may splurge at one or two of the events, but I would exercise some restraint in my splurges and the kind of foods that I ate.. like I may take samplings of a large different variety of desserts (really junk food), but I would not eat large servings of any of the items that I know are bad for me (like bread, i may try a piece or two, but i would not eat a whole slice b/c I know it does not have much of any nutrient value and it will only cause me to crave more carbs later).

And, yes, I agree, we each come to our own comfort levels concerning these kinds of choices, and sometimes we evolve with our choices in order to rethink what we are doing based on how our body is reacting or some times our bodies may need a little unpredictable deviation from patterns of eating in order to have better responses in terms of energy or stamina (and surely quantity and quality of erections could be a good measurement of a good effect of nutrition choices).

Lot of rambling and navel gazing in my post but you seem plenty well informed on the topic and interested in my posts; and sure, I agree with pretty much all you wrote. Round two tonight and I'm pregaming with some vodka tonics.

I try to never do more than three serious cheat sessions per month but IMO drinking can be literally unlimited as long as you have four consecutive non-drinking days per week. Drinking seems to put your liver on hold, so prolonged drinking while in fat-burning mode might cause buildup of nasties in the bloodstream and eventually death. Honestly I am not sure. A few sessions of keto and/or a little fasting should fix the liver and reset it (in my not-very-humble estimation).

Beer and alcohol in general, no matter the carbohydrate content, seem to have no effect on BMI or weight gain, it's almost like it's some kind of a negative calorie and going from hammer drunk -> hungover -> full keto seems to take less time than just waiting for the body's glycogen to deplete or exercising it out while eating nothing but meat (though you feel god-awful). Just eat lots of salted meat and protein shakes once good and sober, then the skin flushes with blood, metabolism explodes, and the fat melts off.

My guess is that alcohol causes one to piss out all glycogen reserves and spur the onset of fat-burning and ketosis. Given sufficient protein, of course, getting drunk every week is a viable strategy for fat loss and muscle gain and even having low insulin resistance and being relatively healthy. On a side note I'll defend alcohol pretty much to my deathbed on it's seemingly inverted effect on sports -> alcoholics make better athletes and better athletes tend to be alcoholics. Jim Thorpe, Vasily Alekseyev, Bulgaria, etc.

The junk refeeds I do mostly for sanity and to increase my drinking tolerance while partying. Otherwise after four beers I'm pretty much trashed. Six donuts or two or three pounds of bananas first makes drinking significantly less hazardous.

The Saturday Morning Hangover Refeed of lots of vegetable juices *(at least a pint)* makes it very easy to get tons of servings of vegetables in. All those antioxidants and pro-testosterone chemicals are the bomb. I consider those to be very high quality carbohydrates, especially when I can get them from a neighbor's vegetable patch.

197# is a pretty good weight for me. I don't see abs (pretty close) but have no love handles and I'm wearing my highschool jeans. I think that good and lean for me would be about 180#.

If you have more questions just shoot.

Also I am curious what you have found with the fatty content of your diet. It can be difficult to get enough fat in when eating lean chicken breasts. Sometimes I think that one must eat fat to burn fat (and certainly produce testosterone), and that protein isn't quite enough. Have you tried substituting something into lean chicken as a fat? I tried a few tablespoons of coconut oil thrown onto chicken but it's not very tasty (unfortunately). It is food, however.

My guess with your understanding of refeeds; I agree that they are completely unnecessary, but how much do you generally drink in a week? Do you just drink once per week? A few drinks?

Personally I think that doing refeeds before a night of drinking hurts nothing but I will report in a few months to see if it is sustainable (on raw keto drinking is an awful experience, I pissed out all my electrolytes and went nearly berserk with some weird kind of bloodlust, literally craved blood, and ended up eating a handful of salt).

[metalheadatheart]

For Ali (others may like it as well)

http://www.garynorth.com/public/9397.cfm

[Magyarphile]

There really seems to be with two problems with the whole Paleo diet craze. 1.) If the world embraced this diet, everyone would starve. 2.) The Paleo fan-boys seem to think the laws of thermodynamics don't apply to them. Yea, carbs will lead to a greater insulin release than the other macronutrients when eaten by themselves but that release is severely blunted when eaten with fat and/or fiber. The reality is, carbs dont make you fat unless you are eating over maintenance. This anti-carb craze will eventually die as the low-fat one recently has and its long overdue.

[Aliblahba]

Our bodies are struggling to stay healthy because most of the population has become sedentary. So the Paleo diet is another form of low carb/natural diet. It is distraction for a society of delusional people.

The issue is a lethargic and emasculated lifestyle. Working in an office does a man no good. It goes against everything against what he is made up of. In fact, anything working indoors is detrimental. Lower testosterone, poor air quality, artificial light, whiny women, oppressive work environment/rules, inability to truly lead, create, or think freely. Once upon a time men did their time in the "trenches", and moved to an office later in life. But by then their bodies/minds were hardened, and the change didn't affect them. Now men spend the first 24 years in a classroom, then right to a cubicle. See the pattern?

So to counteract this lethal lifestyle, changes in diet and exercise were made. Diet fads come and go, but obesity is on the rise. So what gives? They don't work. And neither does pseudo exercise. I'm beginning to honestly believe they are poison too. Again, the indoor problem. And from years of experience, I’m noticing a difference in the hard trades and a gym routine. The toughest guys I know don't go to the gym, they get it during work. And why is it so many bodybuilders are gay? Coincidence? I don't know one dude that slings block/brick, hammers, pulls Cat engines, or lays steel that sucks dick.
Why doesn’t either work? People are in such a delusional existence, they really think they are monkey people or warriors. “Paleo diet”, “Caveman food”, “Spartan Challenge”. WTF? They picked up spears and went out killing food and fighting wars. Eating like they did or running a silly obstacle course with a mud hole is hardly how the ones before us lived. They ran around outside a lot and used calories in real time.
Is there a solution? Yeah. Get outside and do some real work. Then carbs/natural sugars won't bother you cause you are burning them off. Testosterone levels will rise, you'll want more pussy, look/feel like a champ, and stop having to eat what imaginary monkey people fed off of.

[JayJuanGee]

(10-05-2013 10:00 PM)Hades Wrote:  

I try to never do more than three serious cheat sessions per month but IMO drinking can be literally unlimited as long as you have four consecutive non-drinking days per week.

……

…….. On a side note I'll defend alcohol pretty much to my deathbed on it's seemingly inverted effect on sports -> alcoholics make better athletes and better athletes tend to be alcoholics. Jim Thorpe, Vasily Alekseyev, Bulgaria, etc.

Hades: Your more specific lifestyle description throws several challenges in my way of thinking about paleo / low carb. I stick to my guns about every guy choosing his own level of comfort and to see how some lifestyle choices play out for him, yet some lifestyle choices may negatively affect a guy’s health without his really being aware of that negative effect (eg. cancer, diabetes, heart disease, being a fat skinny).

Inflammation plays a large role in various negative health ailments, and as we are younger, we will less likely have as much inflammation because our bodies can tolerate quite a bit of abuse and recover from it. Even exercise causes some inflammation (especially when over done), and we have to be careful about how we approach overdoing activities. I used to think whatever does NOT kill you will make you stronger, but I DON’T really believe that anymore. I believe sometimes unwittingly, we may be causing harm to ourselves, and I think youth can tolerate more abuse – even though these days, we are seeing more and more examples of those chubby little kids with a multitude of health problems including allergies… more health issues than there were in the past.

You have a considerable number of days per week that you spend drinking or recovering from drinking. These kinds of choices may play out alright for guys into their 20s and 30s; however, I would be concerned about that level of drinking as a guy gets older. Certainly there are older healthy guys that drink on a regular basis and have done so for years, yet I am suspecting that the old guy who drinks is usually not the healthy guy and the healthy drinker is likely more of an exception rather than a rule. Moderate drinking and every once in a while binge drinking may be a different story – in that regard, I am engaging in bro-science, but maybe once a month binge (12 times a year) may be o.k., but four times a month, to me, seems excessive in terms of thoughts about potential negative health consequences.

Your description of regular drinking reminded me of Chad Daring’s post on another thread related to alcohol and paleo. Overall, I agree with several of CD’s points in his posting – even though he did not provide sources for his claims.
http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-6527-p...l#pid93713

What resonated with me, for some reason, was his statements

1) “I did some digging (I dont have the links sorry) and found out that the reason low-carb FAT LOSS diets tell you not to drink alcohol has to do with your body's nutrient prioritization.

When you ingest alcohol your body puts everything else on hold, it wants to metabolize the alcohol first. This means that you can't metabolize away the kcals in the chicken you just had because your body is going full tilt into getting rid of the booze. This, to me, was the defining reason why the "beer gut" exists."

2) "Beer is three fold bad. Its carbs. Its calories. Its alcohol.” I don’t really care about or count calories, so in that regard, there is two effects of carbs and alcohol. I’m not even sure whether I care about to much about the alcohol aspect, for me the alcohol problem becomes the carbs, and in essence, alcohol and fruit are metabolized similarly by the body, by the liver, and with someone who eats a lot of fruit or drinks a lot of alcohol could get fatty liver disease because the fructose is converted straight to fat in the liver.

I give Dr. Joseph Mercola a lot of credit for providing valuable scientific information on a variety of topics, and in the linked article, he discusses the way the body processes the different kinds of sugars, including a section that describes the difference between the processing of glucose, fructose and alcohol.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articl...cohol.aspx

(10-05-2013 10:00 PM)Hades Wrote:  

The junk refeeds I do mostly for sanity and to increase my drinking tolerance while partying. Otherwise after four beers I'm pretty much trashed. Six donuts or two or three pounds of bananas first makes drinking significantly less hazardous.

The Saturday Morning Hangover Refeed of lots of vegetable juices *(at least a pint)* makes it very easy to get tons of servings of vegetables in. All those antioxidants and pro-testosterone chemicals are the bomb. I consider those to be very high quality carbohydrates, especially when I can get them from a neighbor's vegetable patch.

I have a hard time understanding how six donut or 2-3 pounds of bananas would be as good as eating something more nutritious. Actually, in my youth and even in my later years, before I knew any better, I would eat a whole quart of ice cream in a sitting or something ridiculous like that. I believe that was NOT good for me, even though at the time, I would feel o.k. and just fine after doing it, and it would make me feel real good while doing it.

Actually, I do NOT disagree with some of the posts in this thread about our bodies can process a certain amount of junk (maybe even 20% or so junk) without any real negative effects (perceived or real), so long as the remaining calories have nutrition. Probably, calorie restrictions can also lessen some of the negative effects of the bad food and cause less likelihood with weight gain or inflammation. A problem or side-effect with calorie restriction can sometimes be energy reduction, unless your body is keto-adapted.

Certainly, Keto adapted people will be able to burn fat more easily than those people who are continuously fueling their bodies with carbs (glucose producing substances). Our bodies burn glucose first, and that does not mean that our bodies prefer glucose as fuel (like some scholars purport), but it does mean that if we are continuously eating foods that convert to glucose, over the years, our bodies may reach certain set points, and be unable to burn ketones effectively and without us feeling lethargic when we do begin to restrict our carbs. In those instances of restricting our carbs, we feel lethargic because we are NOT keto adapted and our bodies are not able to take advantage of our fat stores to burn as energy.

Part of the reason why it makes sense to make your refeeds more sporadic rather than systematic is because our bodies seem to reach certain set points and have a form of food memory. If our diets follow too much of a pattern, then our bodies tend to burn glucose and ONLY glucose for energy. If we come to a fasting stage, and our body is expecting more carbs to be refed, and in those circumstances, it will NOT burn fats because it is waiting for the next refeed of carbs.

I cannot really argue with your choice to juice vegetables – though we know that if vegetables are juiced, then they are going to be higher in their glucose concentrations because the juicer breaks down the fiber and allows us to digest way more carbs in concentrated amounts. I don’t really know if there is any benefits to these ideas of antioxidants and testosterone boosters of juicing vegetables, even though some people swear by it. I tend to think it is o.k. to juice so long as you are getting fat and protein from meat, as well, and not making juicing too much of your diet and maybe not even a strict pattern.
When I juice, I tend to use a vitamix to keep the fiber in the product so I tend to leave the mixture a little chunky, and sometimes, I make sure to put in items that are high in fat in my concoctions - like coconut, cocoa, olives, avocado, nuts – though careful with too many nuts because of the high omega 6 fats contained therein. If I eat a lot of foods with omega 6, then I tend to want to find foods that also have omega 3s to balance out that ratio (or take some cod liver oil, which is high in omega 3s).

(10-05-2013 10:00 PM)Hades Wrote:  

197# is a pretty good weight for me. I don't see abs (pretty close) but have no love handles and I'm wearing my highschool jeans. I think that good and lean for me would be about 180#.

I don’t necessarily agree with weight loss as a goal as long as we are aiming for a better body composition (more muscle and less fat). Even when people were making snarky remarks at me about my weight when I was hovering around 200 lbs, I said my goal was not to lose weight. Nonetheless, I lost nearly 30 lbs over a little more than 2 years, which I now hover between 170 and 175. I was never restricting calories or attempting to lose weight, I was just restricting carbs and increasing fats. I did not feel bad at 200, but my belly did look a bit wide and overall, I look better at my current weight. Currently, I do not get any more snarky remarks, even when I prod strangers (usually girls) to remark about my weight, they usually say that my physique looks good to them.. before, if I prodded, they would make some kind of chubby joke.. he he he.. I usually make these comments while dancing… so it can come across quite natural and fun.

There are also studies that show it may be healthy to be a little overweight in terms of having a BMI between 25 and 30 (mine is currently around 26 – before it was around 29), so long as the fat is not visceral fat (not around the belly and not around the internal organs). Frequently, as people get older, they will have a considerable health benefit from merely losing weight, and frequently, the blood markers will improve NO matter how the weight loss was achieved (I.e. the twinkie diet, which is bullshit for its nutritional value and long-term sustainability, but showed blood marker improvements in the short term regarding cholesterol. I suspect, only short-term improvements to eat mostly twinkies because there is certainly little nutritional value in a twinkie).

(10-05-2013 10:00 PM)Hades Wrote:  

Also I am curious what you have found with the fatty content of your diet. It can be difficult to get enough fat in when eating lean chicken breasts. Sometimes I think that one must eat fat to burn fat (and certainly produce testosterone), and that protein isn't quite enough. Have you tried substituting something into lean chicken as a fat? I tried a few tablespoons of coconut oil thrown onto chicken but it's not very tasty (unfortunately). It is food, however.

I suppose that I practice a bit of bro science regarding my ideas on fat that are evolving ideas. Sometimes I will add a whole stick of butter to something that I am cooking. I do not reserve my levels of dietary fat, but I do restrict the kind of fats (no transfats or vegetable fats or anything that says hydrogenated), and cold pressed virgin coconut oil tastes pretty good to eat straight. Put it in the fridge and then just lob off chunks of it for snacks… especially good with dark chocolate (ends up having a little bit of sugar in there too).

Ever since I started low carb, I have been reading about the benefits of fats or the dangers in removing fats from the diet. Benefits would be nutritional and satiating components of fats. Dangers in removing would be that if all you are left with is protein in your diet because you have removed the carbs, then the proteins would convert to glucose (and you would NOT realize the benefits of having had removed the carbs from your diet).

Some people do suggest removing chicken fat and then substituting with coconut oil or butter or something. I balance the benefits of fats with the dangers, and I read about the dangers in the omega 6s and the toxins being stored in fats of animals. So the dangers are telling me to reduce my fats; however, I still tend to error towards eating all meats with the fats (rather than removing any fats), including chicken. I know I have read that chicken fat is usually high in omega 6, and it would be better if the chicken were free range and eating grass and bugs because then the chicken would likely have more omega 3s in its fats.

I would like to find inexpensive sources for free range animals, because I do not trust labels, and I am NOT inclined to pay 3 times more for something that may or may not be free range. Even if it happens to be free range, I don’t believe the market justifies paying a large premium for that. I will pay a little more, but I am disinclined to pay double or triple. In that regard, I tend to believe that it is better nutritionally to eat food with the fats, even if there may be toxins or omega 6s contained therein because if we are feeding ourselves well, then our bodies can deal with the toxins and omega 6s in the fats. Accordingly, I am also inclined to believe that it is better to get omega 6s from eating the fat of the meat rather than by eating grain – because overall the meat is gonna have more nutritional value than grains. These days, my grain intake is very minimal.. only once in a while at some social gathering.

Another way to add fat is to throw in coconut oil, butter, tallow or lard into eating any foods. I think that olive oil is o.k. too so long as you do not heat it; however, I am skeptical about the benefits of olive oil because it may be over hyped and you may be able to get all the nutrients of olive oil from the other oils (such as coconut oil, butter, tallow or lard).

(10-05-2013 10:00 PM)Hades Wrote:  

My guess with your understanding of refeeds; I agree that they are completely unnecessary, but how much do you generally drink in a week? Do you just drink once per week? A few drinks?

Personally I think that doing refeeds before a night of drinking hurts nothing but I will report in a few months to see if it is sustainable (on raw keto drinking is an awful experience, I pissed out all my electrolytes and went nearly berserk with some weird kind of bloodlust, literally craved blood, and ended up eating a handful of salt).

I don't really drink very much any more. However, I drank a lot between early teenage years until my early 30s. In about the last 7 years, I have NOT been drinking too much. When I first started salsa dancing, I thought that it was the social thing to do to grab some drinks, but after a while, I felt that drinking was messing up my dancing reflexes, so I stopped drinking. My wallet improved, and I am NOT sure about whether my dance improved because there are advantages and disadvantages socially to drinking.

I know what it is like to drink a lot on a regular basis, but it is not my recent experiences, especially within the last couple of years after changing my eating habits. I can see why juices, electrolytes and even salts replenishment could be very helpful in those refeeds to make for a quicker recovery or even preventing a hangover all together. I believe a lot of people swear by coconut water for the replacement of electrolytes and fluids – especially after heavy drinking.

[JayJuanGee]

Regarding our earlier discussion in this thread to gain weight on a paleo diet:

On another paleo thread, I found a couple of real good links that banned IRTDenialist had posted - see below:

(01-16-2013 09:31 PM)IRTdenialist Wrote:  

Here's the link where Robb Wolf talks about the paleo + milk diet. In reality I draw from both of these diets and sets of principles.

http://www.t-nation.com/testosterone-mag...paleo-diet

Also check out the mountain dog diet which also presents some great concepts/ principles.

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums...iples.html

There are some real good pointers on those threads for the body building type and for the concepts of gaining weight with a paleo lifestyle.

[Hades]

(10-06-2013 04:16 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

(10-05-2013 10:00 PM)Hades Wrote:  

I try to never do more than three serious cheat sessions per month but IMO drinking can be literally unlimited as long as you have four consecutive non-drinking days per week.

……

…….. On a side note I'll defend alcohol pretty much to my deathbed on it's seemingly inverted effect on sports -> alcoholics make better athletes and better athletes tend to be alcoholics. Jim Thorpe, Vasily Alekseyev, Bulgaria, etc.

Hades: Your more specific lifestyle description throws several challenges in my way of thinking about paleo / low carb. I stick to my guns about every guy choosing his own level of comfort and to see how some lifestyle choices play out for him, yet some lifestyle choices may negatively affect a guy’s health without his really being aware of that negative effect (eg. cancer, diabetes, heart disease, being a fat skinny).

Inflammation plays a large role in various negative health ailments, and as we are younger, we will less likely have as much inflammation because our bodies can tolerate quite a bit of abuse and recover from it. Even exercise causes some inflammation (especially when over done), and we have to be careful about how we approach overdoing activities. I used to think whatever does NOT kill you will make you stronger, but I DON’T really believe that anymore. I believe sometimes unwittingly, we may be causing harm to ourselves, and I think youth can tolerate more abuse – even though these days, we are seeing more and more examples of those chubby little kids with a multitude of health problems including allergies… more health issues than there were in the past.

You have a considerable number of days per week that you spend drinking or recovering from drinking. These kinds of choices may play out alright for guys into their 20s and 30s; however, I would be concerned about that level of drinking as a guy gets older. Certainly there are older healthy guys that drink on a regular basis and have done so for years, yet I am suspecting that the old guy who drinks is usually not the healthy guy and the healthy drinker is likely more of an exception rather than a rule. Moderate drinking and every once in a while binge drinking may be a different story – in that regard, I am engaging in bro-science, but maybe once a month binge (12 times a year) may be o.k., but four times a month, to me, seems excessive in terms of thoughts about potential negative health consequences.

Your description of regular drinking reminded me of Chad Daring’s post on another thread related to alcohol and paleo. Overall, I agree with several of CD’s points in his posting – even though he did not provide sources for his claims.
http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-6527-p...l#pid93713

What resonated with me, for some reason, was his statements

1) “I did some digging (I dont have the links sorry) and found out that the reason low-carb FAT LOSS diets tell you not to drink alcohol has to do with your body's nutrient prioritization.

When you ingest alcohol your body puts everything else on hold, it wants to metabolize the alcohol first. This means that you can't metabolize away the kcals in the chicken you just had because your body is going full tilt into getting rid of the booze. This, to me, was the defining reason why the "beer gut" exists."

2) "Beer is three fold bad. Its carbs. Its calories. Its alcohol.” I don’t really care about or count calories, so in that regard, there is two effects of carbs and alcohol. I’m not even sure whether I care about to much about the alcohol aspect, for me the alcohol problem becomes the carbs, and in essence, alcohol and fruit are metabolized similarly by the body, by the liver, and with someone who eats a lot of fruit or drinks a lot of alcohol could get fatty liver disease because the fructose is converted straight to fat in the liver.

I give Dr. Joseph Mercola a lot of credit for providing valuable scientific information on a variety of topics, and in the linked article, he discusses the way the body processes the different kinds of sugars, including a section that describes the difference between the processing of glucose, fructose and alcohol.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articl...cohol.aspx

(10-05-2013 10:00 PM)Hades Wrote:  

The junk refeeds I do mostly for sanity and to increase my drinking tolerance while partying. Otherwise after four beers I'm pretty much trashed. Six donuts or two or three pounds of bananas first makes drinking significantly less hazardous.

The Saturday Morning Hangover Refeed of lots of vegetable juices *(at least a pint)* makes it very easy to get tons of servings of vegetables in. All those antioxidants and pro-testosterone chemicals are the bomb. I consider those to be very high quality carbohydrates, especially when I can get them from a neighbor's vegetable patch.

I have a hard time understanding how six donut or 2-3 pounds of bananas would be as good as eating something more nutritious. Actually, in my youth and even in my later years, before I knew any better, I would eat a whole quart of ice cream in a sitting or something ridiculous like that. I believe that was NOT good for me, even though at the time, I would feel o.k. and just fine after doing it, and it would make me feel real good while doing it.

Actually, I do NOT disagree with some of the posts in this thread about our bodies can process a certain amount of junk (maybe even 20% or so junk) without any real negative effects (perceived or real), so long as the remaining calories have nutrition. Probably, calorie restrictions can also lessen some of the negative effects of the bad food and cause less likelihood with weight gain or inflammation. A problem or side-effect with calorie restriction can sometimes be energy reduction, unless your body is keto-adapted.

Certainly, Keto adapted people will be able to burn fat more easily than those people who are continuously fueling their bodies with carbs (glucose producing substances). Our bodies burn glucose first, and that does not mean that our bodies prefer glucose as fuel (like some scholars purport), but it does mean that if we are continuously eating foods that convert to glucose, over the years, our bodies may reach certain set points, and be unable to burn ketones effectively and without us feeling lethargic when we do begin to restrict our carbs. In those instances of restricting our carbs, we feel lethargic because we are NOT keto adapted and our bodies are not able to take advantage of our fat stores to burn as energy.

Part of the reason why it makes sense to make your refeeds more sporadic rather than systematic is because our bodies seem to reach certain set points and have a form of food memory. If our diets follow too much of a pattern, then our bodies tend to burn glucose and ONLY glucose for energy. If we come to a fasting stage, and our body is expecting more carbs to be refed, and in those circumstances, it will NOT burn fats because it is waiting for the next refeed of carbs.

I cannot really argue with your choice to juice vegetables – though we know that if vegetables are juiced, then they are going to be higher in their glucose concentrations because the juicer breaks down the fiber and allows us to digest way more carbs in concentrated amounts. I don’t really know if there is any benefits to these ideas of antioxidants and testosterone boosters of juicing vegetables, even though some people swear by it. I tend to think it is o.k. to juice so long as you are getting fat and protein from meat, as well, and not making juicing too much of your diet and maybe not even a strict pattern.
When I juice, I tend to use a vitamix to keep the fiber in the product so I tend to leave the mixture a little chunky, and sometimes, I make sure to put in items that are high in fat in my concoctions - like coconut, cocoa, olives, avocado, nuts – though careful with too many nuts because of the high omega 6 fats contained therein. If I eat a lot of foods with omega 6, then I tend to want to find foods that also have omega 3s to balance out that ratio (or take some cod liver oil, which is high in omega 3s).

(10-05-2013 10:00 PM)Hades Wrote:  

197# is a pretty good weight for me. I don't see abs (pretty close) but have no love handles and I'm wearing my highschool jeans. I think that good and lean for me would be about 180#.

I don’t necessarily agree with weight loss as a goal as long as we are aiming for a better body composition (more muscle and less fat). Even when people were making snarky remarks at me about my weight when I was hovering around 200 lbs, I said my goal was not to lose weight. Nonetheless, I lost nearly 30 lbs over a little more than 2 years, which I now hover between 170 and 175. I was never restricting calories or attempting to lose weight, I was just restricting carbs and increasing fats. I did not feel bad at 200, but my belly did look a bit wide and overall, I look better at my current weight. Currently, I do not get any more snarky remarks, even when I prod strangers (usually girls) to remark about my weight, they usually say that my physique looks good to them.. before, if I prodded, they would make some kind of chubby joke.. he he he.. I usually make these comments while dancing… so it can come across quite natural and fun.

There are also studies that show it may be healthy to be a little overweight in terms of having a BMI between 25 and 30 (mine is currently around 26 – before it was around 29), so long as the fat is not visceral fat (not around the belly and not around the internal organs). Frequently, as people get older, they will have a considerable health benefit from merely losing weight, and frequently, the blood markers will improve NO matter how the weight loss was achieved (I.e. the twinkie diet, which is bullshit for its nutritional value and long-term sustainability, but showed blood marker improvements in the short term regarding cholesterol. I suspect, only short-term improvements to eat mostly twinkies because there is certainly little nutritional value in a twinkie).

(10-05-2013 10:00 PM)Hades Wrote:  

Also I am curious what you have found with the fatty content of your diet. It can be difficult to get enough fat in when eating lean chicken breasts. Sometimes I think that one must eat fat to burn fat (and certainly produce testosterone), and that protein isn't quite enough. Have you tried substituting something into lean chicken as a fat? I tried a few tablespoons of coconut oil thrown onto chicken but it's not very tasty (unfortunately). It is food, however.

I suppose that I practice a bit of bro science regarding my ideas on fat that are evolving ideas. Sometimes I will add a whole stick of butter to something that I am cooking. I do not reserve my levels of dietary fat, but I do restrict the kind of fats (no transfats or vegetable fats or anything that says hydrogenated), and cold pressed virgin coconut oil tastes pretty good to eat straight. Put it in the fridge and then just lob off chunks of it for snacks… especially good with dark chocolate (ends up having a little bit of sugar in there too).

Ever since I started low carb, I have been reading about the benefits of fats or the dangers in removing fats from the diet. Benefits would be nutritional and satiating components of fats. Dangers in removing would be that if all you are left with is protein in your diet because you have removed the carbs, then the proteins would convert to glucose (and you would NOT realize the benefits of having had removed the carbs from your diet).

Some people do suggest removing chicken fat and then substituting with coconut oil or butter or something. I balance the benefits of fats with the dangers, and I read about the dangers in the omega 6s and the toxins being stored in fats of animals. So the dangers are telling me to reduce my fats; however, I still tend to error towards eating all meats with the fats (rather than removing any fats), including chicken. I know I have read that chicken fat is usually high in omega 6, and it would be better if the chicken were free range and eating grass and bugs because then the chicken would likely have more omega 3s in its fats.

I would like to find inexpensive sources for free range animals, because I do not trust labels, and I am NOT inclined to pay 3 times more for something that may or may not be free range. Even if it happens to be free range, I don’t believe the market justifies paying a large premium for that. I will pay a little more, but I am disinclined to pay double or triple. In that regard, I tend to believe that it is better nutritionally to eat food with the fats, even if there may be toxins or omega 6s contained therein because if we are feeding ourselves well, then our bodies can deal with the toxins and omega 6s in the fats. Accordingly, I am also inclined to believe that it is better to get omega 6s from eating the fat of the meat rather than by eating grain – because overall the meat is gonna have more nutritional value than grains. These days, my grain intake is very minimal.. only once in a while at some social gathering.

Another way to add fat is to throw in coconut oil, butter, tallow or lard into eating any foods. I think that olive oil is o.k. too so long as you do not heat it; however, I am skeptical about the benefits of olive oil because it may be over hyped and you may be able to get all the nutrients of olive oil from the other oils (such as coconut oil, butter, tallow or lard).

(10-05-2013 10:00 PM)Hades Wrote:  

My guess with your understanding of refeeds; I agree that they are completely unnecessary, but how much do you generally drink in a week? Do you just drink once per week? A few drinks?

Personally I think that doing refeeds before a night of drinking hurts nothing but I will report in a few months to see if it is sustainable (on raw keto drinking is an awful experience, I pissed out all my electrolytes and went nearly berserk with some weird kind of bloodlust, literally craved blood, and ended up eating a handful of salt).

I don't really drink very much any more. However, I drank a lot between early teenage years until my early 30s. In about the last 7 years, I have NOT been drinking too much. When I first started salsa dancing, I thought that it was the social thing to do to grab some drinks, but after a while, I felt that drinking was messing up my dancing reflexes, so I stopped drinking. My wallet improved, and I am NOT sure about whether my dance improved because there are advantages and disadvantages socially to drinking.

I know what it is like to drink a lot on a regular basis, but it is not my recent experiences, especially within the last couple of years after changing my eating habits. I can see why juices, electrolytes and even salts replenishment could be very helpful in those refeeds to make for a quicker recovery or even preventing a hangover all together. I believe a lot of people swear by coconut water for the replacement of electrolytes and fluids – especially after heavy drinking.

One disclaimer: What I am doing is somewhat self-destructive (moderate to heavy drinking two to three consecutive nights per week) but ever since I got my diet under control I still have never felt better physically (so it's sort of like making up for lost time).

I used to eat crap food and felt like shit all the time, especially when drinking, and it caused me to mostly be a shut-in and be unable to exercise as hard as I wanted.

I've only been dieting and drinking (and juicing) like this since mid-summer and it's early fall now. I'm 23 and will surely slow down in the future to maybe two or three whiskeys neat here and there - previously I had tried not drinking whatsoever for four months (without dieting) and smoking very few cigarettes and still felt pretty shitty.

The empirical theory I have on alcohol is that it doesn't necessarily cause weight gain. I can find some studies that will back me on this (even when considering the Standard American Diet) but that's my assertion. Going to have to look harder at these studies but it might involve moderate drinking (1 drink per hour for a couple of hours, or just two-three drinks) - even so it's an interesting thought.

You have a ton of information here, I'll go through some of the points most likely tomorrow - but yeah great idea on cold-pressed coconut oil and a little chocolate, here and there it's good to have a tasty snack. Inflammation is also a serious consideration, I'm unsure if drinking causes it (no doubt it inflames the liver, and grain beers definitely inflame the innards) - IMO inflammation can be mostly mitigated with fish oil, cold showers, and eating few grains and starches.