[Nomad77]

I touched on this before but I wanted to expanded on it: the issue of American women and what to do about them. I think we can all agree that we are not happy with the way American women are today. What we don’t seem to have any consensus on is what to do about it. So let’s take an objective look at the current state of affairs, options, possible outcomes, and the role of Game in all of this.

Before I can continue I have to establish some premises on which to base my arguments. The first premise is that only a very small minority of men have Game or can be considered “Alphas”. Even being very generous, this would amount to less than 1% of men. This would also be the amount of men that are on forums like this one and reading the material that exist on it. The second premise is that the vast majority of American women, greater than 70%, are no longer capable of being the loving, affectionate women we would like them to be. The third premise, is that the traditional relationship model of men exchanging resources (money) for sex, love, affection, and children, to a great extent, is no longer valid. (As women become more and more financially independent they no longer need our money.) The fourth premise is, that women today are seeking to redefine their role in the world and in relationships. And that definition is still very much incomplete. There is no consensus among women on what and how the modern woman should be. The American feminist movement while seeking to right some of the wrongs of the past, after having done so, is not able to provide a working relationship model for men and women. We can all agree that the current relationship models do not work, marriage do not work, and that new and functional relationship models need to be created and tested. All of this has lead to a great unhappiness in both sexes.

Ok, so now, we are all in agreement that we would like American women to change but how can this be done?
What are American men doing to effect any changes in women?

Some men on here believe that Game itself is capable of changing women. They believe that Game changes men and that how these men interacting with women has the potential to change women but is this really possible? First, most men do not use Game to change women, they use it to just get sex and maybe a better short-term relationship from women. I don’t hear any of the top Game gurus either on here or anywhere else talking about changing women. Game is a tactical weapon. It has no long-term strategic objective. The scope of Bang and most pickup books ends at sex. The objective of the Game is sex, not to change women. Does having sex with a woman change her? I don’t recall ever seeing a woman change in any significant way by me having sex with them. Sure they would become more emotionally attached to me and try to please me in some ways but, by and large, they remained the same person. If Game does not have an active agenda to change women, how can it? If anything, some have argued that it has made things worse for the majority of men. The women that feels, “taken advantage of” by a guy using Game or being “pumped and dumped” then becomes bitter and extract revenge on other men. In the same way, that a lot of men who have felt mistreated by women then seek revenge, using Game, so do these women in turn do the same. In both instances, the results can ripple across many lives leaving in its wake many bitter and hurt people. It is for this reason that Game has a bad connotation with women. It’s is viewed as only slightly better than the Rape Pill. But the problem is not Game. Game is only really a way of communicating. It is just a tool set. It is how is it used that earns it it’s bad reputation. Is Game used in a constructive and productive manner or is it used in a selfish and destructive manner? That would of course depend on the individual. It could be used either way. So no, as things currently stand, I don’t see how Game will change American women and in some cases it may even make things worse.

Then there is the argument that if the current crop of women don’t have children they will just die out and that will be the end of them. Well they will have children, simply because 90% of the men out there don’t subscribe to the beliefs expressed on here. These men will marry and have children with these women and they do. So no, they are not going to die childless, at least not most of them. But worse, much worse, are the girls these women are raising. I am fortunate to have access to a wide range of girls, from 15 – 45. If we think women today are bad, try talking to a 15 yr old. I can promise you, the next generation of women will be worse, much worse. Girls are becoming more and more like men. All of the qualities we dislike in women today, young girls have them to an even greater degree. So no, I don’t think they will go the way of the dinosaurs and just become extinct. If anything we can expect the next generation of women to be even worse than the current generation with greater predatory skills.

Then there is the manosphere movement. Which is all good and well but for all intent and purposes it is viewed as a radical, extremist movement without any clear agenda. Currently, the manosphere do not have a clear agenda that the average guy can back in any public way. Most of the writers don’t even exist in the real world as real people. They write behind aliases. It is basically an underground, cult movement at this point in terms of sheer numbers. And while they do have some valid points and ideas they also have some extreme views that a lot of men don’t feel comfortable supporting and that includes me. So without a clear platform and agenda the majority of men can support I don’t see how the manosphere will be able to have a significant impact on American women behavior.

What about importing women and leaving the country? Well, we all know what happens once a woman lives here for more than a year and how many of us will be able to leave the country? Did I miss any other way that we are trying to change American women behavior?

Any hope of changing American women will have to involve a majority of the men. I simply do not see a way around this. The role of the Alpha make in nature is to provide a strong leader. Where are our strong leaders? Where are the Alpha males of the manosphere who are standing up and saying follow me? We love to berate the average guy as being beta but yet where is the alpha male he is suppose to look up to and follow? Every successful movement was driven forward by strong leaders. Both the feminist and blacks had them and still have them. But for all of the alphas we are supposedly creating where are our great leaders? And right there is our first and primary problem. If we want to change American women we need two things, at the very least:

1.A well define platform and agenda that a majority of men can publicly support and follow.
2.Strong and powerful leaders to rally those men and execute on that agenda.

Unfortunately, short of a Jesus miracle, I don’t see either of those happening within my lifetime. Currently, we are fighting a war without generals, without an army, and without a strategic battle plan. We are using Game to achieve some level of success on an individual level but it still remains a weapon that most men do not possess. So even if the majority of men wanted to fight they don’t even have a weapon to fight with but worse, they don’t have an objective to fight for.

It is precisely for these reasons that I admire the fight Roosh is so gallantly fighting. I may not agree with some of his positions but at least he has had the courage to stand up, in public, and fight for them. And in the end if we want to change American women that is exactly what we will have to do: stand up, in public, for our beliefs. We will have to create them, state them, and then draw a line in the sand upon which to stand.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

You wrote up a whole long post but failed to give any specific policies or actions to take. You are exactly what you're railing against.

Personally, I think fathers would make the best leaders and organizers of such a movement. No one cares when some single dude jizzes on a slut's face in the name of patriarchy. But if you had a number of families committed to living vastly differently than the average American, showing how happy and healthy their children and wives are, it would be a strong rebuke to the status quo. Look at how people said McQueen on ROK must be a virgin for having standards for a girlfriend. All that would be irrelevant. It's very easy to deligitimize a player in the eyes of the public. That's a lot harder with an upstanding father with a beautiful family.

Specifically what I mean: woman stays home, homeschools the kids, no television in the home, cooks all the meals, looks feminine and dresses modestly. Man provides for his kids, sets a masculine role model for his sons, and stays in shape.

[Nomad77]

The post was primarily created to point out the short-comings of our current approaches to dealing with the problem. An agenda (specific policies) would have to be created by consensus. Unless the majority of men will support those policies they are meaningless. Your specific suggestions/policies I doubt most men would be willing to support.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

You ask for a leader and then want to rule by consensus? You're confused.

You're also wrong - homeschooling for instance is rapidly growing in popularity.

You can't legitimately complain about the treatment of men in society while you pipe in the very things you oppose, via your television set. It's like a fat girl railing against junk food as she makes trips to Micky D's thrice daily.

[Days of Broken Arrows]

A thoughtful write-up. But I really think changing the American woman is totally futile. Even if you can do it, it will end up like the movie "My Fair Lady." You really want to give women lessons on how to be a woman? Should men have to put together a platform for this? Why not just go for a womanly woman to begin with?

I found a solution. Live near a university or an enclave with a large ethnic population. Then date the foreign women. It's pretty simple.

Let's take my area, the Balt-Wash region. There are a slew of colleges and pockets of Russians and Indians. Hang out enough in these spaces and it's almost impossible not to end up with a foreign woman. If there is any reason to attend at least one year of college (or even night classes) it's this.

Also I want to address this sentence:
"The fourth premise is, that women today are seeking to redefine their role in the world and in relationships."

This is a uniquely American obsession and it stems from parents raising their girls as boys. They need to redefine their roles because they don't know what the eff a woman is supposed to be. By contrast, you can meet a female Russian doctor or engineer yet she'll be more feminine than an American housewife because she was raised traditionally, as a girl. This makes a huge difference. And this goes for the way parents raise their boys in America too. It's as if gender norms are a sin.

The only question remaining is why I didn't listen to my parents and marry the foreign girls I used to date in college...all of whom look incredible now. You all can continue to debate this while I ponder that life-screwing error...

[Nomad77]

@Emmanual I guess we have a different of opinion of what a leader does. Think of our political system. Regardless, of the strength of any given leader, if he's running on an unpopular platform he's not going to win. I am not claiming to have the solution to the problem. I am only claiming that we need to collectively derive one.

[Onto]

I understand where you're coming from. These days suck for sure and the masculine has fallen on hard times.

I wrote a post recently on a method that may lead to changing/education a woman.

http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-27273.html

If anyone has a desire to delve deeply into the subject of Men and Women today I would suggest reading Mark Dillof's book, "Awakening with the Enemy".

http://www.amazon.com/Awakening-Enemy-Or...0967825202

One thing to keep in mind is that although women are "trying" to be men, they are really being undeveloped boys. They are what Jung referred to as "animus-possessed".

The media doesn't have any real men today in the movies, tv, etc. To see an example of the developed masculine you would have to watch a movie like "Shane" or "The Big Country", or "The Razors Edge" (1946), "High Noon", or other movies from 30's-50s.

These days won't last forever, but they probably won't change for the better in our lifetime.

[Nomad77]

@Broken Arrow In my experience most foreign women become "Americanized" to a large extent once they are here for a few years. They look at their American friends and TV to decide how they should behave and what they should be. They want to fit in and be a part of the culture.

@Onto A big part of the problem is the media and the viewpoints they choose to project as representing what women should be striving to achieve or be like.

[JimNortonFan]

The key is fathers and mentors. Don't stand for white knighting or wimpiness. Don't associate with friends who white knight. Don't tolerate sucking up from subordinates. Don't tolerate a guy who doesn't eat right or stay in shape. Don't tolerate a guy who doesn't better himself with reading, thinking, improving, etc.

Under no circumstances should you ever feed a male hamster's need for approval. Withhold it and if the guy becomes desperate for it, explain to him why you can never approve of who he is, only what he does. I see way too many "men" who want the same type of emotional validation for who they are that women want. It's disgusting.

There can be no out in the open movement on this. Manosphere guys are the same as Soviet dissidents, the system has to stamp them out to survive. Only by changing ourselves and those we associate with can we change the world.

[Onto]

(08-21-2013 12:53 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

@Onto A big part of the problem is the media and the viewpoints they choose to project as representing what women should be striving to achieve or be like.

It's been said artists are the antenna of the race. Which means they merely tap into the zeitgeist and reflect what's already rife in the culture. A great example of such artist is Quientin Tarantino, especially the Kill Bill movies.

That said, the media does often pander (as you are saying) to what's already there, but I do believe it's already there.

[Nomad77]

Oh, for sure it always there but to what extent. When the media focuses on one event or person a lot it gives the impression that everyone is like this.

[Onto]

The way the masculine is portrayed in the media and movies today makes me want to vomit. I just can't watch movies or TV anymore.

I envision myself moving abroad in 5 years or so when I'm financially in the clear.

Like Andy Dufresne in Shawshank, " he crawled through a mile a shit and came out clean on the other side". 5 more years of prison and I'm out of here, though I may stage a breakout early.

[Nomad77]

Yep, unfortunately men are a large part of the problem. They make these movies and write these roles. Most men in the US won't have the option of leaving the country so consider yourself lucky.

[scorpion]

The manosphere was initially concentrated on the discussion of "game", which in the early days was basically defined as a collection of tactics a man could learn to achieve more sexual success with women. Early game was essentially nothing more than deploying certain social techniques like peacocking, negging, kino escalation, etc... which were carefully selected to mimic the traits of an alpha male. This was manosphere 1.0. This type of game began to give way to more organic game focused on self-development of the man himself into an alpha male, rather than simply aping the behaviors of an alpha. This was manosphere 2.0. Currently the manosphere is in a stage where it is beginning to move from addressing the needs of the individual man toward addressing the needs of men in society at large. This is manosphere 3.0.

The thing to understand is that these "battles" are not fought in the streets, but in the minds of men. The war is not one of fists, tanks and bullets, but of ideas. All great revolutions are revolutions of ideas. Changing the way that men think and look at the world is more powerful than any type of coercive force or weapon. A man perceives reality through the lens of a certain world-view. If you can alter than lens even slightly, his entire perception can shift markedly. This fact will be key to our victory.

Because every man who stumbles into the manosphere and internalizes what he has read is forever changed. Even if he falls short of becoming a player or an alpha male (as will most) he will become less of a chode than he was before. He won't be as quick to buy into the feminist narrative. He'll be cynical and cast a critical eye toward the propaganda society has been feeding him from birth. In short, he will have taken a dose of the red pill, and even a tiny dose can have a profound effect.

Guys who get a partial dose of the red pill are important, because while they will not be the instigators or even contributors toward the movement, they will not interfere or oppose it, and will quietly approve its message. They are the ones who will give us our first stronghold in the mainstream. They are the ones who will nod along when hearing an anti-feminist message and say, "Well, you know, they do have a point." They will share manosphere links with their blue pill friends, and discuss manosphere ideas when their wives and girlfriends are not around. Hundreds of them are lurking, reading this post right now. Reading everything put out by the manosphere. They will form the silent backbone of our supporters.

With this foothold, our pro-masculine message will begin to spread and gain recognition, but not acceptance, in the mainstream. As more and more men become aware of the manosphere's message, gradually there will emerge a cultural shift toward a more pro-masculine stance in the minds of men. They will become less afraid to speak their minds on these issues. Eventually, they will become emboldened.

The key to understanding how this works is recognizing that society and culture only exists in the minds of the people. People act a certain way, express certain values, condone certain behaviors, etc...and a culture emerges from the interplay of these actions and beliefs among the millions of people who make up the society. This means that you can completely change a society by changing the way that people think. Look how much ground the pro-homosexual movement has gained in just a few decades. Homosexuality has gone from being literally a criminal offense in most states to being openly celebrated in the highest corridors of power. People say that "society has changed". But what does this really mean? It means nothing more than that the minds of the people have been influenced to perceive things differently.

This is the reason that the manosphere can have an impact in forging a more pro-masculine Western culture. At this point, the ideas we espouse are more important than having public leaders, because we are a movement of ideas. Every post written on the RVF or anywhere on the manosphere is an act of subversion against the progressive cathedral that has come to dominate Western culture.

By this means, we will shift the minds of men and gradually return them to a more pro-masculine world-view, and where men go, women and culture itself follow. This is what we mean when we say that feminism is nothing more than a giant, cultural shit test. Feminism and progressivism in general only survive because men silently acquiesce to them. If tomorrow every man in the West woke up and said, "Enough is enough," then feminism would be history by lunchtime.

So essentially, I say that the question of what to do about American women is the wrong question entirely. It is irrelevant. The issue is not women. Women will simply do as much as men allow them. The question is how do we change the way that Western men think, and the answer is that we are already doing it, just like this, spreading our ideas one post at a time. This may sound overly grandiose, but it's important to remember that right now the manosphere is still in its infancy. We here today form the tip of the spear, the vanguard party. Our movement started out with a trickle, but before long it will become a torrent, and finally a flood that inundates the landscape and reshapes the culture for years to come. Such is the power of ideas.

"Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come." - Victor Hugo

[Nomad77]

While I agree, in reality, the spread of the message is very limited though. None of my friends, for example, are unaware of the manosphere and of the ideas it contains they all are very much aware of what they don't like about American women though.

[aphelion]

I don't have anything useful to contribute to the thread, since I think plenty has already been discussed and I don't fancy myself an expert. But there's some quality writing in here, gentlemen.

[Nomad77]

Thanks, appreciated. Scorpion has put forth the theory that if we change ourselves that that in turn will change women. I think that is possible ONLY IF a majority of the men change. As long as the change only affects a minority of men it's impact on women will be insignificant. The analogy is the Buy American program. To combat imports the US government at one point launched the Made in USA campaign. And while some people were willing to pay a bit more for American made products the majority was not and ultimately the program failed and with it our whole manufacturing base and millions of jobs.

Personally, I think we need to sit down with women and develops new relationship models. We need to talk to each other honestly and openly. Right now we are not doing that, we are trying to one up and out Game each other.

[dtf]

only a very small minority of men have Game or can be considered “Alphas”

unless this changes, american women will continue using betas & white knights as a pedestal to getting their way. sitting down with women to discuss relationship models is like sitting down & negotiating with labor unions. and american women don't have a 'designated leader' or representative per se, so good luck with that.

[Lou pai]

Nomad, not trolling but why do you want to change american women?

Personally I don't want them to change, I have no desire to get married and want girls to be slutty as possible. I understand women are more masculine but guys have become more feminine as well. There is never been a better time in history for guys to be aggressive and bang a ton of women

[Nomad77]

@dtf And good luck with teaching Game to a majority of men and creating Alphas. I do it, I am personally out there trying to help guys and let me tell you the average guy that comes to me for help requires a lot of help. In many instances I am doubtful I will be able to make any significant difference...

@Lou If you like banging masculine women then America will be your pussy paradise. Unfortunately, most men don't. We want women that act and look like women.

[Nomad77]

True story...

Three Italian guys in Miami

Me: Why are you guys just standing here? Why are you not dancing and talking to the American girls?
Guys: There are fat. (Shows with their hands...width and depth)
Me: You mean to tell me that people in Italy do not know America is the fattest country in the world? You are actually coming here to find slim girls?
Me: LOL (laughing at them)

Ask the average teenage girl what is her passion and addiction and she will tell you it's FOOD. This is another issue that Roosh is waging a war against. If you like your women XXL then this will also be your pussy paradise.

[dtf]

And good luck with teaching Game to a majority of men and creating Alphas.

I didn't say this. This is a straw man argument.

I know where you're coming from. and I know on my end I'm not anywhere near of a solution.

[Nomad77]

I stand corrected you did not say this. While it would be nice for both sides to have leaders, it's not absolutely necessary. We just need to start talking to each other. Right now, there is this mentally that it is US against THEM. That women are using the System to fuck us over so we need to use Game to fuck them over back.

[Wadsworth]

Male identity is stuck in a cycle which hinges on validation seeking behavior. It's hard to figure out which is the chicken and which is the egg, but basically males seek validation of their masculine identity through female acceptance. This enables women to shape male identity to their liking. The more men seek female validation, the more women and their opinions become artificially pedestalized. The more they become pedestalized, the more women make demands and shape male identity. This cycle pushes male identity increasingly downward into one of compliance and service.

This has probably always existed, but the feminist advances of the past 50 years have amplified this problem greatly. Men have been portrayed as violent, worthless, aggressive, rape prone oppressors. Male identity is thus shaped by guilt and shame, and in an attempt to demonstrate we aren't those things, we make increasingly pathetic appeals to females in hope that they accept that we aren't like that. The more men do this, the more women demand we do it.

If men knew how to stand up for themselves and tell women to go fuck themselves, none of these problems ever would have arisen. Instead, our proclivity for manginosity has been amplified to the point of cultural self loathing.

Game and MGTOW are both cultural phenomena which break this cycle. Game culture is about "gaming" the broken system for maximum personal outcome, it really doesn't matter what women think of it. MGTOW merely says don't play the game, and it really doesn't matter what women think of it. Both appear content to allow the broken system to destroy itself, and it really doesn't matter what women think of it. As an aside, MRAs want to try to fix the system.

My point is that the system stands on the shoulders of men. Contemporary women contribute almost nothing to it except reproductive capacity and complaints. As men increasingly see this for what it is, as they adopt either game or MGTOW (or MRA), and as they stop allowing women the power to decide whether their masculine identity is valid or not, the system will become increasingly unsustainable.

So yes, in my opinion both game and MGTOW are both cultural game changers. As men increasingly stop appealing to women to validate their masculine identity, the artificially high value of women will plummet and they'll be in no position to make demands.

This is a cultural siege warfare effort.

[dtf]

It's a very complicated issue and I don't see a viable solution in sight, yet.

Since betas & white knights are 95% or more of the US male population, they are the system that women are working with. And this is a generalization since if the man they're in company with has a strong alpha frame, they'll tend to work in that frame instead of the default 'system' frame.

Sometimes I think that countries like Saudi Arabia where men run the place, have it right. I don't think there are MRAs or MGTOWs there. Just men running the show, as it has been for eons.