[MrLemon]

I'm considering moving my family to Vancouver BC.

Mostly because, the legal climate in the USA is getting more frightening all the time. I have no qualms supporting the law, but the legal system system in the US seems out of control. Republicans, Democrats, I see no differences.

This isn't just about "men" by the way. It's not just about Feminism, alimony, and false rape. In general, there are SO MANY things you can get prosecuted for, or sued for, that it's like living in a damned minefield (unless you are rich and can have layers of protection, but I don't). I see friends and family losing their life savings defending themselves against some bullshit accusation or another.

Reminds me of ancient Rome...there were times when Romans spent all their time informing on the rich families, so that they could get a cut when Ceasar wiped that family out and stole their land and gold. It seems like we're entering a period like that in the US.

Rambling a bit. Anyway I've spoken to smart friends who claim that Canada has a much less aggressive legal culture...yes still run by raging Feminists and liberals...but less aggressive in it's prosecution of otherwise law abiding families. Fewer federal laws and fewer scumbag prosecutors/judges with nothing better to do than destroy people's lives over casual infractions.

Or is that wishful thinking?

All opinions most welcome.

[Menace]

This is a complicated question. What are your specific legal concerns?

[MrLemon]

(07-19-2013 02:07 PM)Menace Wrote:  

This is a complicated question. What are your specific legal concerns?

General legal environment...odds of getting sued for something stupid.

Odds of getting prosecuted for something stupid. Let's say my son gets in a fight. In my area, the local prosecutors have started charging boys with felony "gang related activity" if they even defend themselves (let's say they get jumped by another group of boys at a football game).

Here's another example. You go fishing in the bay. You catch a crab that is below whatever size XYZ. Now you can be prosecuted based on federal regulations.

Some people estimate that, in the US, the average citizen violates 3 federal laws (with jail time if caught) per day. So many laws on so many obscure things, you can be thrown in jail on a whim.

Somebody hijacks your computer and loads child porn on your hard drive. You get thrown in jail, because somebody else did it, not you. Legal system doesn't care.

Your kid gets drunk and pees on a tree in a park. The local DA decides to charge him as a sex offender and he gets on the sex offender list. He never can rent or hold a job again.

This stuff happening all over now.

The question is, is Canada less or more aggressive about these sort of things. Yes, they have plenty of environmental laws, but are the judges and prosecutors going crazy, or staying reasonable?

[scotian]

(07-20-2013 11:50 AM)MrLemon Wrote:  

(07-19-2013 02:07 PM)Menace Wrote:  

This is a complicated question. What are your specific legal concerns?

General legal environment...odds of getting sued for something stupid.

Odds of getting prosecuted for something stupid. Let's say my son gets in a fight. In my area, the local prosecutors have started charging boys with felony "gang related activity" if they even defend themselves (let's say they get jumped by another group of boys at a football game).

Here's another example. You go fishing in the bay. You catch a crab that is below whatever size XYZ. Now you can be prosecuted based on federal regulations.

Some people estimate that, in the US, the average citizen violates 3 federal laws (with jail time if caught) per day. So many laws on so many obscure things, you can be thrown in jail on a whim.

Somebody hijacks your computer and loads child porn on your hard drive. You get thrown in jail, because somebody else did it, not you. Legal system doesn't care.

Your kid gets drunk and pees on a tree in a park. The local DA decides to charge him as a sex offender and he gets on the sex offender list. He never can rent or hold a job again.

This stuff happening all over now.

The question is, is Canada less or more aggressive about these sort of things. Yes, they have plenty of environmental laws, but are the judges and prosecutors going crazy, or staying reasonable?

This is a hard question to answer, in many ways the Canadian government is more socialist and nanny state style and our laws reflect that, one could argue that Canada is "less free" than the USA as we don't have the same rights to bear arms or freedom of speech, here's some examples:

A month ago, the small Alberta town of High River had a massive flood and all of its residents were forced to leave, the RCMP then went house to house and seized hundreds of guns and would only return one that were registered, I don't think that would happen in the States: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013...ulson.html

I've posted about this before but our Human Rights Tribunals limit free speech, big time and are basically Kangaroo courts, the Westboro Baptist Church would never get away with what they do in Canada: http://canadianhumanrightscommission.blo...llars.html

And my personal favorite, the Quebec Language Police who enforce French speaking rules in the province, last week they found a parrot at the Montreal Biodome who spoke to much English and had him deported to Toronto: http://www.thebeaverton.com/montreal/ite...ch-english

Oh ya, if Zimmerman had done what he did in Canada he would be in jail right now, but probably for only ten years or so as our sentences for crimes such as murder are much lighter in Canada.

We don't have the big law suits that you guys have in the States, which is a good thing IMO but you can get yourself in trouble if you say the wrong thing, or take it upon yourself to defend yourself and your family, especially if it involves weapons.

[paninaro]

(07-20-2013 11:50 AM)MrLemon Wrote:  

General legal environment...odds of getting sued for something stupid.

I think those items in the papers about getting busted for fishing the wrong size crab, etc are a bit blown out of proportion. They make the papers precisely because they aren't that common, or there's more to the story.

Tort reform is sorely needed, but even there, the big payouts are often reduced considerably upon appeal.

[kosko]

Litigation wise yes Canada is less hostile then America but you have to give some more concrete reasons why you want to relocate. I would think that economic prospects would trump the fears of possible litigation. Vancouver has a cost of living higher then almost every USA city except NYC, SF and DC keep that in mind also. Plus keep the issue of citizenship on the table also, your money might still be in reach and be subject to taxes from both countries. I am not sure how it works for USA-->Canada but the opposite for Canadians going south to go hustle and get money the Canadian Govt tries to leech of Capital gains tax from you plus you at times will be obliged to pay USA taxes if you have some type of venture set up, not sure how its self up i the opposite way but look into that also.

[MrLemon]

(07-20-2013 07:13 PM)kosko Wrote:  

Litigation wise yes Canada is less hostile then America but you have to give some more concrete reasons why you want to relocate. I would think that economic prospects would trump the fears of possible litigation. Vancouver has a cost of living higher then almost every USA city except NYC, SF and DC keep that in mind also. Plus keep the issue of citizenship on the table also, your money might still be in reach and be subject to taxes from both countries. I am not sure how it works for USA-->Canada but the opposite for Canadians going south to go hustle and get money the Canadian Govt tries to leech of Capital gains tax from you plus you at times will be obliged to pay USA taxes if you have some type of venture set up, not sure how its self up i the opposite way but look into that also.

Yeah good questions. I'm pretty well set money wise. Vancouver prices aren't much higher than those of my home town. It's one of the the 3 cities I'd live in, in terms of natural beauty and west coast flavor. I'd like my family to live in another country for at least a while and Europe/Asia aren't practical for various reasons.

[paninaro]

(07-20-2013 07:13 PM)kosko Wrote:  

Plus keep the issue of citizenship on the table also, your money might still be in reach and be subject to taxes from both countries. I am not sure how it works for USA-->Canada but the opposite for Canadians going south to go hustle and get money the Canadian Govt tries to leech of Capital gains tax from you plus you at times will be obliged to pay USA taxes if you have some type of venture set up, not sure how its self up i the opposite way but look into that also.

Good point. US citizens are subject to taxation on their worldwide income, even if it was earned and/or they lived abroad. There's usually a tax treaty in place to prevent double taxation, but the end-result is that your tax burden ends up being the higher of the US tax rate and the tax rate where you live. In the case of Canada, my guess is that Canadian income tax isn't any lower than US income tax, but I'm not certain.

[iknowexactly]

You can get what's called "umbrella insurance" ; it's sort of covers what others don't.

Things like slander suits, false arrest maybe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbrella_insurance

[VincentVinturi]

Why not just opt out of the West altogether? If you're considering moving to Canada, I presume your work is location independent..? Why not take your family to Thailand or Costa Rica or Colombia? Not only will it enrich all your lives immeasurably (especially your children) but you'll be far less vulnerable to whimsical government bullshit. And, dare I say, you might be much much much happier.

[MrLemon]

"Rise of the Warrior Cop"

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424...%3Darticle

-------

On Jan. 4 of last year, a local narcotics strike force conducted a raid on the Ogden, Utah, home of Matthew David Stewart at 8:40 p.m. The 12 officers were acting on a tip from Mr. Stewart's former girlfriend, who said that he was growing marijuana in his basement. Mr. Stewart awoke, naked, to the sound of a battering ram taking down his door. Thinking that he was being invaded by criminals, as he later claimed, he grabbed his 9-millimeter Beretta pistol.


Sean McCabe
The police say that they knocked and identified themselves, though Mr. Stewart and his neighbors said they heard no such announcement. Mr. Stewart fired 31 rounds, the police more than 250. Six of the officers were wounded, and Officer Jared Francom was killed. Mr. Stewart himself was shot twice before he was arrested. He was charged with several crimes, including the murder of Officer Francom.

The police found 16 small marijuana plants in Mr. Stewart's basement. There was no evidence that Mr. Stewart, a U.S. military veteran with no prior criminal record, was selling marijuana. Mr. Stewart's father said that his son suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder and may have smoked the marijuana to self-medicate.

Early this year, the Ogden city council heard complaints from dozens of citizens about the way drug warrants are served in the city. As for Mr. Stewart, his trial was scheduled for next April, and prosecutors were seeking the death penalty. But after losing a hearing last May on the legality of the search warrant, Mr. Stewart hanged himself in his jail cell.

-----

Assault-style raids have even been used in recent years to enforce regulatory law. Armed federal agents from the Fish & Wildlife Service raided the floor of the Gibson Guitar factory in Nashville in 2009, on suspicion of using hardwoods that had been illegally harvested in Madagascar. Gibson settled in 2012, paying a $300,000 fine and admitting to violating the Lacey Act. In 2010, the police department in New Haven, Conn., sent its SWAT team to raid a bar where police believed there was underage drinking. For sheer absurdity, it is hard to beat the 2006 story about the Tibetan monks who had overstayed their visas while visiting America on a peace mission. In Iowa, the hapless holy men were apprehended by a SWAT team in full gear.

[MrLemon]

(07-21-2013 02:27 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

You can get what's called "umbrella insurance" ; it's sort of covers what others don't.

Things like slander suits, false arrest maybe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbrella_insurance

Doesn't apply to any situation where you are being sued or prosecuted by a government agency.

[Brodiaga]

(07-21-2013 02:48 AM)VincentVinturi Wrote:  

Why not just opt out of the West altogether? If you're considering moving to Canada, I presume your work is location independent..? Why not take your family to Thailand or Costa Rica or Colombia? Not only will it enrich all your lives immeasurably (especially your children) but you'll be far less vulnerable to whimsical government bullshit. And, dare I say, you might be much much much happier.

I am a big fan of traveling, moving to new countries (this is my third country) and exploring new cultures, but if i had children, there is no way in hell I would let them grow up in a place like Colombia. Thailand - only if I had enough money for a good international school (abt $4k/month just for the school if i remember correctly). If I had kids I would just suck it up and stay in a first world country at least until they grow up.

This is coming from a guy who grew up in a poor country during "interesting" times. You guys, who grew up in the relative safety and comfort in the US in its golden years, have no idea how traumatized a child could get just from growing up in an unsafe third world environment, and how this could fuck up the rest of his life. Don't even get me started on the shit I had to put up with as a kid, even though my mother did her best to protect me from that environment.

I don't mean to be too confrontational, but this is just bad advice in my opinion.

[scotian]

(07-21-2013 12:18 PM)Brodiaga Wrote:  

(07-21-2013 02:48 AM)VincentVinturi Wrote:  

Why not just opt out of the West altogether? If you're considering moving to Canada, I presume your work is location independent..? Why not take your family to Thailand or Costa Rica or Colombia? Not only will it enrich all your lives immeasurably (especially your children) but you'll be far less vulnerable to whimsical government bullshit. And, dare I say, you might be much much much happier.

I am a big fan of traveling, moving to new countries (this is my third country) and exploring new cultures, but if i had children, there is no way in hell I would let them grow up in a place like Colombia. Thailand - only if I had enough money for a good international school (abt $4k/month just for the school if i remember correctly). If I had kids I would just suck it up and stay in a first world country at least until they grow up.

This is coming from a guy who grew up in a poor country during "interesting" times. You guys, who grew up in the relative safety and comfort in the US in its golden years, have no idea how traumatized a child could get just from growing up in an unsafe third world environment, and how this could fuck up the rest of his life. Don't even get me started on the shit I had to put up with as a kid, even though my mother did her best to protect me from that environment.

I don't mean to be too confrontational, but this is just bad advice in my opinion.

On the other hand, raising kids in the west will likely result in having entitled little brats who are addicted to video games, shit food, Ritalin and will likely be huge pussies due to all this zero tolerance for bullying. You do make a really good point though, as I imagine a kid growing up in the 3rd world would be exposed to some pretty crazy shit.

[MrLemon]

(07-21-2013 12:18 PM)Brodiaga Wrote:  

(07-21-2013 02:48 AM)VincentVinturi Wrote:  

Why not just opt out of the West altogether? If you're considering moving to Canada, I presume your work is location independent..? Why not take your family to Thailand or Costa Rica or Colombia? Not only will it enrich all your lives immeasurably (especially your children) but you'll be far less vulnerable to whimsical government bullshit. And, dare I say, you might be much much much happier.

I am a big fan of traveling, moving to new countries (this is my third country) and exploring new cultures, but if i had children, there is no way in hell I would let them grow up in a place like Colombia. Thailand - only if I had enough money for a good international school (abt $4k/month just for the school if i remember correctly). If I had kids I would just suck it up and stay in a first world country at least until they grow up.

This is coming from a guy who grew up in a poor country during "interesting" times. You guys, who grew up in the relative safety and comfort in the US in its golden years, have no idea how traumatized a child could get just from growing up in an unsafe third world environment, and how this could fuck up the rest of his life. Don't even get me started on the shit I had to put up with as a kid, even though my mother did her best to protect me from that environment.

I don't mean to be too confrontational, but this is just bad advice in my opinion.

No problem. I wouldn't go to those places with a kid under any circumstances. Columbia? Huh?

[iknowexactly]

My adorable 19 year old chick language teacher in Ukraine had really nice long legs. She said they helped her run from the Gopniks that would wait at the suburban ( means poorer there, not calm like in USA) train station when she would get home.

They were trying to rob her of her laptop. This is within the last year.

Her father had made it to Canada, he had gotten her a student visa. I asked her if she was ever coming back to Ukraine, and she said no, it was too corrupt.

Where I live in Northern California people are so nice they basically never even honk their car horns except in a real emergency. I ride my bike here all the time and fuck up and weave into traffic and they just wait.

[iknowexactly]

(07-21-2013 11:59 AM)MrLemon Wrote:  

"Rise of the Warrior Cop"

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424...%3Darticle

-------

On Jan. 4 of last year, a local narcotics strike force conducted a raid on the Ogden, Utah, home of Matthew David Stewart at 8:40 p.m.

That presumably largely Mormon vice squad was pretty obviously insanely out of control.

Ogden is 83% Mormon. They may have a ridiculous, highly fearful and moralistic view of marijuana.

They could have easily ascertained that from the size of the guys house or apartment he wasn't growing tons of weed, and that the likely charges didn't merit a military style attack.

They've got a new police chief since then since the shooting, I wonder if they did any training or policy changes. Getting cops killed over absolutely nothing-- 16 plants-- as well as their victim/suspect.

The Ogden Police Department is a department rich with history, tradition and service to our community. We are the county seat of a larger community known as Weber County, Utah. The Ogden Police Department has been providing law enforcement services to this community since 1855.

Although we still provide basic services much the same way as we always have, the changes in the development of technology over the years has increased our department's capability to provide the most up to date and professional work by the most dedicated employees any organization would be proud to employ. Technology, like the computer you are using to view this message, has dramatically increased our ability to provide you, our customers, with the information you desire.

The Ogden Police Department is a Community Policing based department of 140 sworn police officers supported by a civilian work force of 80 non-sworn and volunteer professionals. The community of Ogden covers approximately 27 square miles and sits at the base of Mount Ogden Peak, a site of the 2002 Winter Olympics.

Our department is a diversified and proactive department made up of a number of different specialty areas and bureaus. Hopefully you will take some time to visit some of the areas in our department via this web site. Thanks for your interest in reviewing this web page and if you have any questions, please feel free to contact us at any time.


Sincerely,

Mike Ashment, Chief of Police

[malc]

Let's put it this way: Vancouver has the best weather in Canada. Everyone wants to move to BC, it's the California of Canada. When you tell people you want to move to Seattle in the USA, most of them put an ick face and ask you why you want to be depressed in the rain all the time.

Vancouver is way more expensive than Seattle and it's 20-40 year old age group is being gutted by a lack of relative financial opportunity compared to the cost of living there. Canada overall is systematically %20 more expensive than the USA. Your children will just move out to somewhere else with more financial opportunity, probably Alberta or the USA. They also have a good chance of become attached to the place, treading water for a decade or two with crap $15-20/hr jobs. Seattle is far cheaper and pretty much identical to Vancouver culturally. Seattle actually has an economy.

Check this out: http://throwww.com/a/7jh "Vancouver vs. Seattle: a Vancouverite's Perspective"
http://www.crackshackormansion.com/

Is Asia or Europe not practical because of time zone reasons or because of flight time reasons? Maybe consider Chile, the Switzerland of South America?