[Norset]

Comment on Moore's law:

Transistor scaling is limited to electron movement at the nanoscale and how well it can be controlled, with the Si devices we're already at the point where scaling further down will lead to leakage issues as well as problems with dopant control (the placement of individual dopants begin to matter). The convergence onto this limit was what Moor predicted, with the assumption that the progress would build on itself and keep improving. Thus the exponential growth. If you want to go beyond this you need a new device concept (which lots of people are working on, with no new clear candidate. It's a really hard physics + materials problem; you have to be able to grow these tiny tiny tiny devices).

For the 3D printers it's a beautiful merger of polymer processing technology and clever computer science. But there is no clear end-point of the scaling as there always was for the Si transistor, so improvements over time will be more similar to the car than the transistor. My guess is our lives will be affected by this somewhere in between the car and the computer.

[Laner]

These are cool to make, and are cheap and easy on a 3D printer.

There are so many .stl files out there in open source already that if any one buys a makerbot you will have things to make for months without even having to learn a solid modeling program.

[Architekt]

(07-04-2013 12:27 AM)Norset Wrote:  

Comment on Moore's law:

Transistor scaling is limited to electron movement at the nanoscale and how well it can be controlled, with the Si devices we're already at the point where scaling further down will lead to leakage issues as well as problems with dopant control (the placement of individual dopants begin to matter). The convergence onto this limit was what Moor predicted, with the assumption that the progress would build on itself and keep improving. Thus the exponential growth. If you want to go beyond this you need a new device concept (which lots of people are working on, with no new clear candidate. It's a really hard physics + materials problem; you have to be able to grow these tiny tiny tiny devices).

For the 3D printers it's a beautiful merger of polymer processing technology and clever computer science. But there is no clear end-point of the scaling as there always was for the Si transistor, so improvements over time will be more similar to the car than the transistor. My guess is our lives will be affected by this somewhere in between the car and the computer.

I remember reading a while back, that if you place a thin layer of (I believe) lead on the board, the electrons can move faster between transistors, slightly increasing performance. The next stage in the processing game is quantum computing. Some companies are making progress in this area already

[xsplat]

(07-03-2013 11:13 PM)Teutatis Wrote:  

This technology is just incredible, I've been meaning to start some business related to 3D printing for a year now, I just don't know what exactly. I must do more research.

Ya, it interests me too.

If someone had a vision for what to do, I could invest in equipment and web-design and promotion. I'd prefer to do it in SEA, so if you want to move out here and start up such a business, PM me.

3-D printing can also work in conjunction with metal casting. A small scale foundary is pretty simple to setup, and labor costs to run it out in SEA are small. So custom jewelry could be made. Many possibilities.

I'm in the process of hiring a freelancer to do some 3-D modeling for a piece of jewelry, which we will 3-D print, and then get cast. It would not be a stretch to hire a full time 3-D modeler to work on custom projects. I have office and printing and foundary space ready to go. Just need a smart and creative mind to oversee operations and build up a business from scratch.

We could cast chocolates, gummy bears, silver, brass. We can easily do gold plating. I think peoples faces and their pets would be popular, perhaps pasted onto king tut or other themes. Endless really - someone with an entrepreneurial mind could get some ideas by taking a few weeks to see what the competition is doing, and then brainstorming with our team. Ebay business alone ought to make the venture worthwhile.

First person who is accepted gets the job. Well, partnership, really.

********

I've offered internships that can lead to partnerships here in the past, (and we still have openings), and in that process learned that while there is quite a lot of enthusiasm, when it comes down to it people are wary of making huge and scary life changes. I suppose the emotions might be similar to the first day at school - leaving ones familiar companions and support system and whole world behind to step into the unknown. Only a very small percentage of people are emotionally capable of it, in practice.

So for this 3-D printer business, people who are normal and wary of change could still give value from their remote home locations. You'd need to have 3-D modeling skills, or have creative ideas that you could give to our modeler, and you'd need to be able to oversee some marketing. You'd act not only as a salesman or broker, but be involved in product design.

But I've found that remote workers are only about 1/10th as valuable as people who work together in meat space. And besides, it's really fun out here, and a great lifestyle.

[worldwidetraveler]

(07-04-2013 02:21 AM)xsplat Wrote:  

(07-03-2013 11:13 PM)Teutatis Wrote:  

This technology is just incredible, I've been meaning to start some business related to 3D printing for a year now, I just don't know what exactly. I must do more research.

Ya, it interests me too.

If someone had a vision for what to do, I could invest in equipment and web-design and promotion. I'd prefer to do it in SEA, so if you want to move out here and start up such a business, PM me.

3-D printing can also work in conjunction with metal casting. A small scale founday is pretty simple to setup, and labor costs to run it out in SEA are small. So custom jewelry could be made. Many possibilities.

Sure, I imagine you can make molds for jewelry with printers. We used to do that by hand in art classes.

I was doing some online searching and there is a company that is working on organic replacement organs with 3d printing. I am looking forward to seeing what happens in the next 5 - 10 years.

[R Smoov]

Makes you wonder what use would a 3D Printer be for RVF members.

Printing out gym equipment. Barbells, dumbells the whole nine.
Printing out your own suit.
Musical Equipment for DJs.

Maybe that could be something you could start up xsplat.

[le prince perdu]

Xsplat why do you want to be a dinosaur?

[Architekt]

@xsplat: If I had money to invest, I'd be in on this in a second. Especially running out of SEA

[Parlay44]

I'd like to see them combine 3D scanners with 3D printers.

[ImmoralPsychology]

Will it ever make a BIG dent? Manufactured goods will always be cheaper to buy than making your own. The real advantage of 3D printers is that you can make any custom item you want. That might make a dent in that you won't end up buying things at the store if they're not exactly what you want, but you'll always pay a fairly large premium for that. Economies of scale and all that.

[Volk]

(07-04-2013 09:22 AM)ImmoralPsychology Wrote:  

Will it ever make a BIG dent? Manufactured goods will always be cheaper to buy than making your own. The real advantage of 3D printers is that you can make any custom item you want. That might make a dent in that you won't end up buying things at the store if they're not exactly what you want, but you'll always pay a fairly large premium for that. Economies of scale and all that.

I believe it won't be ubiquitous as the (paper) printer, because most people don't need to print pieces. Where it would make a dent is in the background, with the makers. The people behind the curtains who come up with new, interesting ideas, that's where the real deal is.

[Gmac]

(07-03-2013 11:48 AM)Architekt Wrote:  

(07-03-2013 11:46 AM)Volk Wrote:  

China is going to hate this so much. I'm all in for it.

I was rinking rat before, after I read soup's post. Arr of rose people that invested in rat are now rhost rowns in China are going to be kicking themserrrrrves even harder.. Anyone with rerrow fever is going to be roving rife, though.

Fixed.

[Gmac]

(07-03-2013 02:48 PM)soup Wrote:  

Gmac, I'm curious to know why you decided to post this thread now. I've been obsessed with 3d printers for the last month or so after hearing that a guy printed a gun.

I guess because I'd seen a few articles and had been getting somewhat obsessed myself. It's something I might want to invest in and figured people here might have some interesting opinions on the subject... and I was right.

[Ingocnito]

These things are dope. The primary usefulness that I see, besides 1-off items for personal use and science/medical use, and short-run manufacturing prototyping, is they lower the R&D costs barriers to entry for many, many savvy entrepreneurs. I too am considering buying a small one.

While it does not change the problems of capitalization for production in an iffy economy, it sure as hell is more compelling to sit in front of a panel of venture capitalists with a working prototype in hand. Millionaires will be made from ideas bred off these machines for sure.

[Architekt]

(07-04-2013 11:54 AM)Ingocnito Wrote:  

These things are dope. The primary usefulness that I see, besides 1-off items for personal use and science/medical use, and short-run manufacturing prototyping, is they lower the R&D costs barriers to entry for many, many savvy entrepreneurs. I too am considering buying a small one.

While it does not change the problems of capitalization for production in an iffy economy, it sure as hell is more compelling to sit in front of a panel of venture capitalists with a working prototype in hand. Millionaires will be made from ideas bred off these machines for sure.

Someone with a bit of 3D design skill could literally just sit around all day designing things until they struck it big, or make enough items with a small return that it adds up. Passive income anyone?

[xsplat]

(07-04-2013 08:22 AM)Architekt Wrote:  

@xsplat: If I had money to invest, I'd be in on this in a second. Especially running out of SEA

No need for money. As long as someone could pay their own airfare, all expenses would be paid until profits came in, then we'd share in the profits.

[soup]

(07-04-2013 11:36 AM)Gmac Wrote:  

(07-03-2013 02:48 PM)soup Wrote:  

Gmac, I'm curious to know why you decided to post this thread now. I've been obsessed with 3d printers for the last month or so after hearing that a guy printed a gun.

I guess because I'd seen a few articles and had been getting somewhat obsessed myself. It's something I might want to invest in and figured people here might have some interesting opinions on the subject... and I was right.

I was thinking about getting one too, but I'm not sure what I'd make with it, and I don't think they are advanced enough yet.

I'd probably print out different guitar designs.

[Parlay44]

(07-04-2013 02:21 PM)soup Wrote:  

I'd probably print out different guitar designs.

Right now you can only print in metal and plastic. A guitar would sound like garbage. It might be good to prototype a body shape to see how it might look.

My friend builds guitars. He CNCs the body out of cheap plywood first to work out the bugs in his design. Then he cuts it out of the real wood.

You might be better off printing metal coins or slugs. Some of the slot machines in Atlantic City take big $100 coins. I'm not condoning doing anything illegal but it might be a cool thing experiment with.

[soup]

(07-04-2013 03:14 PM)Parlay44 Wrote:  

(07-04-2013 02:21 PM)soup Wrote:  

I'd probably print out different guitar designs.

Right now you can only print in metal and plastic. A guitar would sound like garbage. It might be good to prototype a body shape to see how it might look.

My friend builds guitars. He CNCs the body out of cheap plywood first to work out the bugs in his design. Then he cuts it out of the real wood.

You might be better off printing metal coins or slugs. Some of the slot machines in Atlantic City take big $100 coins. I'm not condoning doing anything illegal but it might be a cool thing experiment with.

Think about how cheap this would be to make in your home. And to be able to experiment with different designs.. could be amazing. Printing would alleviate some of stresses that the woods have. So for example, maybe their wouldn't be a need to have bracing in an acoustic guitar, or the top could be thinner etc.

Also, there might be very resonant material to print from in the future- even more resonant than wood.

[xsplat]

I've also been keeping my eye on 3d cnc routers. Got to get one of those one day. Laser cutting table would be cool too. It's all plans in my head at this point, but one excuse to eventually get them would be for a shop for making flat pack boats that fit in containers.

Step one, 3 d printer. Any recommendations?

[Architekt]

(07-04-2013 03:17 PM)soup Wrote:  

Also, there might be very resonant material to print from in the future- even more resonant than wood.

There are some companies who use these materials already

[Laner]

Quote:

Step one, 3 d printer. Any recommendations?

The Makerbot Replicator 2 that I mentioned earlier.

We have been using it quite a bit in the last 6 months and its great.

[ImmoralPsychology]

Right now, the highest resolution you can get is 100 microns, which is the same as a sheet of paper. So it's impossible to get a smooth edge unless your entire design is 90 degree angles? I think they need a little bit more maturing but it shouldn't be long now.

[Spike]

(07-04-2013 11:03 AM)Volk Wrote:  

(07-04-2013 09:22 AM)ImmoralPsychology Wrote:  

Will it ever make a BIG dent? Manufactured goods will always be cheaper to buy than making your own. The real advantage of 3D printers is that you can make any custom item you want. That might make a dent in that you won't end up buying things at the store if they're not exactly what you want, but you'll always pay a fairly large premium for that. Economies of scale and all that.

I believe it won't be ubiquitous as the (paper) printer, because most people don't need to print pieces. Where it would make a dent is in the background, with the makers. The people behind the curtains who come up with new, interesting ideas, that's where the real deal is.

I think you guys are missing the point. The first ones to introduce this on a massive scale will be the industry. I used to buy a lot of plastic parts for industrial use. Injection moulds costs a ton to make and every little plastic part needs a different one.
3 D printing will take over this industry. After the industry starts investing heavily in this technique the developments will speed up and costs will go down. After 5 to 10 years it will be mass made for personal use and every one will have one. Although I don't see the benefits of having a personal 3 d printer yet. Unless someone invents a technique where you can combine different materials at the same time. What's the use of having something that can print plastic parts?

I don't think it's a good investment unless you already are producing parts on industrial scale.

[xsplat]

I could see it being useful in conjunction with a small foundry, for custom or small run jewelry. I've read you can use the pieces directly instead of waxes for a "lost plastic" process. Not sure how one would set up a business that way - perhaps send out samples in plastic to many jewelry stores, so that they only have to display those, then the customer makes special orders based on ring size and other alterations, such as letters or images. Shops do that with waxes and catalogs now. Especially suitable for wedding bands or other high end jewelry.

I want a big fat custom gold ring, myself. Just to be ostentatious and special.

You'd need an edge to compete against the many other hobby and cottage industry 3D printers. I suppose the foundry could be it, as there is labor associated with that, and you'd want that labor in a developing country.

And of course people can order such things online nowadays, so while jewelry stores would be good partners, they are not the only way to do business.

The trick would be to get 3D scans from at home customers. I heard talk way back of web cams being able to make 3D "scans" using some software. Is that realistic?