[cardguy]

This is really great. It is a three hour interview with Victor Conte where he discusses how he organised a laboratory to help athletes break world records and win gold medals.

The details are fascinating. Due to the length of the podcast - it really allows for the sort of indepth look into this issue that I have never before seen.

Victor details how easy it is to beat the system and how the government's prosecution of him was bullshit. I think he ended up being found guilty of laundering just $100(!!!). Before being sent to a cushy open prison for 4 months. And the information about these open prisons is jaw dropping. Luxury sporting facilities, smoking weed, prison guards that double as hookers. And there isn't even any fences. Just signs requesting that you please don't leave the prison compound.

The whole thing is really good. I am only an hour in but just wanted to give a shout out right away. One of the great things about internet podcasts like this one is that it allows for the sort of indepth interviews that have never being seen before in the media.

[go to the 8:05 mins part for the interview] or just use the link below to take you straight there...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azzhD2QJ8B0&t=8m5s

I have never really checked out Joe Rogan's podcasts before. But this is good. Would be interested if others have any Rogan podcasts that are worth checking out.

[JimNortonFan]

Check out the ones with Joey Diaz. the guy is hilarious.

[Hades]

Prisons where the guards are basically hookers? Sign me up, that's more freedom than I have now.

[cardguy]

Finally had a chance to work through this amazing interview.

One thing to take away from it.

The drug testing in all sports is a complete joke. This is due to the lack of out of season testing - and the weak sanctions for missing tests. As well as the use of tests which do not pick up certain drugs.

Look at Serena Williams - she locked herself in her panic room when the drug testers visited her for a surprise test.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/se...WqXmotSDSP

And here is Victor discussing the remarkable (and suspicious) rise of Jamaican sprinting over the past few years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azzhD2QJ8B0&t=163m25s

Would be interested in what Athlone thinks of the above.

Personally - I don't give a shit about sports. I just like trying to unpick a scam.

Cardguy

PS This is relevent to the above: http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/08/12/b...u-know-it/

[Excelsior]

(06-11-2013 04:53 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

And here is Victor discussing the remarkable (and suspicious) rise of Jamaican sprinting over the past few years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azzhD2QJ8B0&t=163m25s

Would be interested in what Athlone thinks of the above.

Meh, I'll believe it when I see it. Our athletes are already some of the most scrutinized on the planet thanks to their success. If something is going on, then it'll be found.

Jamaicans are known for their athleticism. We comprise 1% of the English population but often make up over a quarter of its national football teams at most age groups, with a similar proportion for English track and field teams. The same can be said of Jamaican diasporas in Canada and the USA (Sanya Richards, anyone?). Wherever we go, we stand out athletically. I doubt that this is all a coincidence and/or that all Jamaican diasporas are rife with cheaters. More likely than not, we're simply gifted athletes.

Aside from this, we're also broke. Do you really want to try and tell me that Jamaicans, despite having very little money and very little in the way of resources, have somehow found a way to outcheat the entire planet, even with all of the scrutiny that's come down on us lately? If its simply a matter of our being a 3rd World nation and their being fewer checks on us because of that, why can't any of the other developing countries duplicate our success? Why can't developed nations with far more resources than we have (and likely many more advanced extralegal options to choose from) match our success?

Like I said, I'll but the whole cheating thing when I see it. Until then, "Jamaica to di world". Everyone else can just deal with it.

[Moma]

Athlone - The Jamaican DNA is not unique to only Jamaicans so I'm not sure how they always dominate sprint events.

From what some friends tell me, Jamaicans on their home turf focus heavily on sprint events with facilities to a relative degree to develop these skills.

I debated with a Jamaican guy in Scarborough 2008 after Bolt smoked the competition and he said that Jamaicans have a build akin for running whereas African Americans are built for basketball.

I told him bollocks, a large percentage of fast twitch fibres is what gives the Afro Americans an edge in basketball and I gave him some Jamaican examples such as Patrick Ewing who is HOF (didn't leave Kingston till he was 13) and you have Ben Gordon of Jamaican descent who is a pretty good individual basketball player.

Since a large percentage Afro Jamaicans are direct descendants of Ghana (Ashanti) and Nigeria (Igbo), why don't those particular countries produce any sprinters to the level of Jamaica?

Also, the Africans are also scattered among the other islands i.e. Antigua, Barbados.

So why do the Jamaicans dominate so overwhelmingly in the sprint events out of all the other Afros?

[Excelsior]

(06-13-2013 07:07 AM)Moma Wrote:  

Since a large percentage Afro Jamaicans are direct descendants of Ghana (Ashanti) and Nigeria (Igbo), why don't those particular countries produce any sprinters to the level of Jamaica?

Jamaica is a much wealthier country than either of those African nations (we're poor, they're poorer). This helps when it comes to development. There is also probably a cultural aspect (sprinting is a bigger deal in Jamaica than almost anywhere else).

Quote:

Also, the Africans are also scattered among the other islands i.e. Antigua, Barbados.

So why do the Jamaicans dominate so overwhelmingly in the sprint events out of all the other Afros?

Those countries are wealthier than Jamaica, but the cultural argument above applies here (track is bigger in Jamaica than anywhere else). It is also possible that the sources of those island populations could differ slightly.

[Moma]

Athlone - I do agree on the cultural aspect playing a major influence though but money wise, I'm not too sure about wealth.

I know Nigeria has far more money than Jamaica but I'm not sure how much of it they divulge towards track.

Ghana seems to have better money management than Nigeria and I am pretty sure they have more money than Jamaica.

[Timoteo]

The science will always be ahead of the testing. I remember Conte bragging about how his BALCO designer drugs were undetectable, because he actually did testing himself. Until the labs figure out what the markers are for a substance, and specifically test for it, they won't find it.

The sad part of the drug era in sports is that any and all excellence is now considered suspect. It would piss me off if I put in the work to be successful, only to have someone whisper or flat-out accuse me of cheating until proven otherwise. The Serena Williams article posted above is a prime example of that. If you read the piece, she didn't lock herself in her panic room because she wanted to avoid drug testing - she didn't know that it was a representative from a lab, she thought it was a prowler. You don't know what to think of someone coming onto your property at 6am unexpectedly. Remember, these are UNSCHEDULED, SURPRISE visits, and for that reason they will show up at any hour. Once it was cleared up, I'm pretty sure she provided the sample because refusing is treated the same as failing a test. Folks are angry about her success, so they want her to be on something to explain it.

[Timoteo]

As to the issue of track success, in Jamaica, track (sprinting) is KING. Many of their sprinters actually run for major college track programs here in the US, and of course run for Jamaica in competitions. Africans lean more towards distance events - especially those from areas that are well above sea level. Scientifically, it's the same as sherpas - they're born with the ability to function at altitude. If you can live and train up where the air is thin, at sea level where oxygen is more abundant, you simply don't get tired and your muscles stay oxygenated. So sprinting for Jamaicans is more a cultural thing that's passed along, while for Africans it's cultural AND physiological. American blacks take to basketball because of culture and the accessibility of the sport. It isn't as if being born in Jamaica means you automatically WON'T be good at basketball. Kids play whatever is popular where they live. Patrick Ewing came to the US as a teen, and because he was tall, got pushed into picking up the sport. If you play and practice, you'll develop the skills. Hakeem Olajuwon is African, and played soccer until he grew too tall to play. He got pushed towards basketball, and developed into a great player. He employed the footwork and reflexes needed for soccer success, and worked on other basketball-related skills. I believe Ben Gordon was actually born in London, to Jamaican parents, who moved to the US (the Bronx) shortly after he was born. Though his heritage is Jamaican, he grew up like any black kid in NYC, so he played basketball. We could go on and on about the physiological reasons for the success of blacks in certain sports, but it goes hand-in-hand with culture. There are blacks in the NHL. In the places in the world where hockey is most popular, you won't find too many blacks there. The ones that are in the NHL grew up in places (Canada) where hockey is popular, so that's what they played. Some of them are of Caribbean heritage (Anson Carter is Barbadian, George Larauque is Haitian, etc.) whose families moved to Canada when they were young. Sports Illustrated actually did a piece on Canadians in Division I basketball. Basketball isn't the MOST popular sport up there, but there have always been a Canadian or two in the NBA (Steve Nash being the most notable).

[cardguy]

(06-13-2013 07:41 AM)Timoteo Wrote:  

The science will always be ahead of the testing. I remember Conte bragging about how his BALCO designer drugs were undetectable, because he actually did testing himself. Until the labs figure out what the markers are for a substance, and specifically test for it, they won't find it.

The sad part of the drug era in sports is that any and all excellence is now considered suspect. It would piss me off if I put in the work to be successful, only to have someone whisper or flat-out accuse me of cheating until proven otherwise. The Serena Williams article posted above is a prime example of that. If you read the piece, she didn't lock herself in her panic room because she wanted to avoid drug testing - she didn't know that it was a representative from a lab, she thought it was a prowler. You don't know what to think of someone coming onto your property at 6am unexpectedly. Remember, these are UNSCHEDULED, SURPRISE visits, and for that reason they will show up at any hour. Once it was cleared up, I'm pretty sure she provided the sample because refusing is treated the same as failing a test. Folks are angry about her success, so they want her to be on something to explain it.

Victor Conte talks in the interview above about how easy these tests are to cheat.

The rule is something like - you can miss two random drug tests every 18 months. And it is rare for an athlete to be tested as much as that. Also - it is an 18 month rolling period.

So - if you are doping up. You miss the first two tests - and then stop taking drugs until your 18 month rolling period is up. This usually means you only have to be clean for a few months - untill your first missed drugs test is dropped from the rolling 18-month period.

Also - it is never publicised when you miss a drugs test - unless you miss three (over an 18 month rolling period) in which case you have to attend a hearing.

As for Selena Williams above. My understanding is that she did not take the drugs test. If you read the article it says it is unknown if she took it or not.

I may be wrong. But this is the spin that Victor Conte put on it when he mentioned it. And I am assuming he is familiar with that incident.

The interview above is very revealing. And it seems that the drug testers are complicit in alot of this since they don't want to destroy the illusion for alot of the sports fans.

As for Victor Conte. He now works with the anti-doping agencies trying to help clean up the sport. A bit like a former hacker helping a security team to tighten up their procedures.

[Timoteo]

(06-13-2013 08:36 AM)cardguy Wrote:  

As for Selena Williams above. My understanding is that she did not take the drugs test. If you read the article it says it is unknown if she took it or not.

Since the article doesn't say whether or not she took the test, why are you assuming she didn't?

Each sport that has drug testing has their own rules. From what I've read, if you refuse to provide a sample, it's treated as a positive result. You don't have the option of "missing" a test. A minor league baseball player in the Marlins' organization got suspended 50 games for refusing to take a test. I believe the NFL has a similar policy - refusal is the same as failing the test. It defeats the purpose of random, unannounced testing if the athlete has the option of refusing it.

The biggest issue in drug testing, at least in American professional sports, is the HGH issue. Leagues still aren't testing for it, so the assumption is that some players are using it. I'm sure there are. Look at the most recent drug controversy in MLB. Ryan Braun, who actually failed a prior drug test but avoided suspension by appealing due to issues with the chain of custody/handling of his B sample, actually turned up dirty AGAIN. Even after getting lucky and avoiding punishment on a technicality, he got caught again, with his name turning up in the notes of a shady lab.

[Moma]

(06-13-2013 08:17 AM)Timoteo Wrote:  

Basketball isn't the MOST popular sport up there, but there have always been a Canadian or two in the NBA (Steve Nash being the most notable).

Does Jamal Magloire from Toronto also get a mention as a notable Canuck in the NBA?

[Timoteo]

(06-13-2013 09:52 AM)Moma Wrote:  

(06-13-2013 08:17 AM)Timoteo Wrote:  

Basketball isn't the MOST popular sport up there, but there have always been a Canadian or two in the NBA (Steve Nash being the most notable).

Does Jamal Magloire from Toronto also get a mention as a notable Canuck in the NBA?

Yep. Magliore's nationality has gotten mention, but since he isn't a star, it isn't talked about as much. Rick Fox, who played college ball at North Carolina, and of course was on those Laker title teams, is also Canadian. I remember all the way back to Leo Rautins, who played at Syracuse and had a short NBA career. His son followed him to Syracuse and has played a few NBA games. I believe Leo's dad also may have played in the league. Bill Wennington, who played at St. John's, had a long NBA career. Todd MacCulloch played a few years also, but ended up retiring do to some kind of foot condition. The sport is definitely growing up North, with more and more Canadian natives coming to play at top NCAA programs.

[MikeCF]

Drug tests are designed for athletes to pass.

Drug testing exists only to alleviate the cognitive dissonance suffered by fat, pill-popping, beer-drinking spectators.

People want to see super human performance but also have a bias against drugs (except for Prozac, beer, cigs, and food).

So sports talk about their testing to calm down the fat lazy fucks who can barely get up from their couches.

[Excelsior]

(06-13-2013 07:31 AM)Moma Wrote:  

Athlone - I do agree on the cultural aspect playing a major influence though but money wise, I'm not too sure about wealth.

I know Nigeria has far more money than Jamaica but I'm not sure how much of it they divulge towards track.

Ghana seems to have better money management than Nigeria and I am pretty sure they have more money than Jamaica.

On a per capita basis those nations are nowhere near Jamaica when it comes to wealth. Jamaica has a per capita GDP of about $9100. Ghana boasts a figure of about $3300, and Nigeria just $2700. The average Jamaican has much more money than the average citizen in either of those two countries. They are larger nations and may possess more money overall, but that means little when the per capita figures are so low (lots of money spread out over too few people to do too many things). Jamaica is in a much better (though still dire) financial situation right now than those nations. Ghana is the likeliest to close this gap, but that will take time.

Jamaica is also a far more developed country with significantly higher living standards than either of them. When I speak of "development", I refer to better services, better infrastructure, better healthcare, higher life expectancy and better overall records of governance in general (though Ghana doesn't do badly at all in that last regard). These things all make a difference when it comes to sports development.

[kosko]

(06-13-2013 01:06 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(06-13-2013 07:31 AM)Moma Wrote:  

Athlone - I do agree on the cultural aspect playing a major influence though but money wise, I'm not too sure about wealth.

I know Nigeria has far more money than Jamaica but I'm not sure how much of it they divulge towards track.

Ghana seems to have better money management than Nigeria and I am pretty sure they have more money than Jamaica.

On a per capita basis those nations are nowhere near Jamaica when it comes to wealth. Jamaica has a per capita GDP of about $9100. Ghana boasts a figure of about $3300, and Nigeria just $2700. The average Jamaican has much more money than the average citizen in either of those two countries. They are larger nations and may possess more money overall, but that means little when the per capita figures are so low (lots of money spread out over too few people to do too many things). Jamaica is in a much better (though still dire) financial situation right now than those nations. Ghana is the likeliest to close this gap, but that will take time.

Jamaica is also a far more developed country with significantly higher living standards than either of them. When I speak of "development", I refer to better services, better infrastructure, better healthcare, higher life expectancy and better overall records of governance in general (though Ghana doesn't do badly at all in that last regard). These things all make a difference when it comes to sports development.

Keep in mind that for Nigerian stats are very underrepresented. There is no real way of gathering data there for a nation so large and fragmented plus many Nigerians generate much income off the books via person to person transactions in cash.

Jamaica for its size is better able to prove more well rounded stats due to its modest size, because if you go onto the ground in Nigeria you will see a very large middle class whom have sizable disposable incomes.

To put it bluntly a large majority of Nigerian residents don't even partake in the economy. There is a sub-layer and other sub-layer of self-sufficient industries they take part in. You have islamic nomads in the north that do nothing but trade crops amongst each other, while you have tycoons that have more wealth stashed away in Europe then all of what Jamaica has in the bank, the disparity is of the charts and maybe only rivaled by Brazil.

My point is the millions whom do partake into the economy are blowing Jamaicans out of the water as far as wealth goes.

Nobody even knows what the real population of the country is, they just throw ballpark estimates out. It's impossible to scale a realistic GDP projection for Nigeria it's truly the wild west out there.

[Moma]

(06-13-2013 01:06 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(06-13-2013 07:31 AM)Moma Wrote:  

Athlone - I do agree on the cultural aspect playing a major influence though but money wise, I'm not too sure about wealth.

I know Nigeria has far more money than Jamaica but I'm not sure how much of it they divulge towards track.

Ghana seems to have better money management than Nigeria and I am pretty sure they have more money than Jamaica.

On a per capita basis those nations are nowhere near Jamaica when it comes to wealth. Jamaica has a per capita GDP of about $9100. Ghana boasts a figure of about $3300, and Nigeria just $2700. The average Jamaican has much more money than the average citizen in either of those two countries. They are larger nations and may possess more money overall, but that means little when the per capita figures are so low (lots of money spread out over too few people to do too many things). Jamaica is in a much better (though still dire) financial situation right now than those nations. Ghana is the likeliest to close this gap, but that will take time.

Jamaica is also a far more developed country with significantly higher living standards than either of them. When I speak of "development", I refer to better services, better infrastructure, better healthcare, higher life expectancy and better overall records of governance in general (though Ghana doesn't do badly at all in that last regard). These things all make a difference when it comes to sports development.

What the average person has in their pocket has no impact on what the country has and what they decide to put into a particular event.

If Nigeria or Ghana wanted to focus on track, they could round up two localpot bellied big men with obscene cash and easily have those men fund it.

[cardguy]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersp...ports.html

[Excelsior]

(06-13-2013 02:59 PM)Moma Wrote:  

What the average person has in their pocket has no impact on what the country has and what they decide to put into a particular event.

If Nigeria or Ghana wanted to focus on track, they could round up two localpot bellied big men with obscene cash and easily have those men fund it.

They don't, which is the key.

Anyway, as if on cue, one of our athletes has tested positive for something.

Veronica Campbell-Brown tests positive for banned substance: Jamaican news report

Quote:

EDMONTON - A Jamaican news report Friday said track star Veronica Campbell-Brown has tested positive for a banned substance, which would be a major blow to the Edmonton International Track Classic.

The longtime sprint star’s A sample tested positive for a diuretic, which acts as a masking agent, at the Jamaica Invitational meet on May 4, The Gleaner reported on Friday.

The B sample result was confirmed on Friday, the Jamaican newspaper reported.

The International Association of Athletic Federations (IAAF) is expected to rule on the finding by the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) early next week.

Campbell-Brown was signed as one of the headliners for the EITC, which goes on June 29 at Foote Field.

Officials for the Edmonton track meet would not comment on the news report.

The irony is that she was tested and caught by Jamaicans in Jamaica.

Haven't seen too many reports on this yet so hopefully it blows over for her.

[cardguy]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersp...-Wada.html

Quote:

Jamaica may have failed to drugs test their sprint stars for up to six months in the build-up to London 2012, it has been claimed.

The World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada) has announced plans to launch an "extraordinary" audit of Jamaica's drug-testing agency following allegations that its policing of the island's sprinting superstars, led by Usain Bolt, all but collapsed before the London Olympics, the Associated Press has learned.

[cardguy]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersp...chief.html

Quote:

The former head of the Jamaica Anti-Doping Commission (JADCO) claims the organisation has never conducted a blood test and is so short-staffed that it risks botching its prosecutions of accused athletes Asafa Powell and Sherone Simpson when they face drug hearings in three months’ time.