[TheCaptainPower]

I tried to go vegetarian for a while, it doesn't work for me. The protein quality is not the same as it is with meat. I eat more fish now than red meat, but once in a while I love a good steak...

[JayMillz]

(04-14-2013 09:37 AM)TheCaptainPower Wrote:  

The protein quality is not the same as it is with meat.

Please elaborate.

[JayMillz]

So I thought it was a pretty st8 forward question. I've heard everything from people getting high on meat to meeting pretty girls in the meat restaurants. But, I haven't heard a generalizable rationale.

[TheCaptainPower]

I've read that the protein in vegetables are not the same quality as in meat, and when I went vegetarian my bodybuilding was suffering. I got weaker and less cut. Not 100% sure of the scientific reasoning, but for me it didn't work.

[Doctor]

I believe that animal based protein has a more complete amino acid profile than plant based protein. Google that as I can't give you the full scientific breakdown off the top of my head.

And again, there is a study for everything, but there are studies showing that soy protein can cause an increase in estrogen levels in men. That I am on the fence about though. Derek Poundstone (World's Strongest Man competitor, also on the sauce) is a big proponent of soy protein. That could also have to do with sponsorship and financial backing for all I know.

[TheCaptainPower]

I've tried most proteins and I know what works for my body...

Eggs, good for my powerlifting and bulking (although I don't really bulk anymore)

Tuna: Also good for my power, keeps me pretty lean

Salmon: My new favorite. Has been leaning me out, AND i've been holding onto my strength.

Chicken: The number one grand champion. I don't put on any fat, and my strength increases. I just get tired of eating it.

I tried going with legumes and soy and all that stuff, it didn't work for me.

[ManAbout]

I think it depends on what you want. Study after study indicates that vegetarians are healthier, i.e they have reduced rates of heart disease and cancer. This recent study has been making a lot of waves:

Quote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/08/health...d=all&_r=0

That study and a series of additional experiments led to the discovery that a red meat substance no one had suspected — carnitine — seemed to be a culprit.

The researchers found that carnitine was not dangerous by itself. Instead, the problem arose when it was metabolized by bacteria in the intestines and ended up as TMAO in the blood.

That led to the steak-eating study. It turned out that within a couple of hours of a regular meat-eater having a steak, TMAO levels in the blood soared.

But the outcome was quite different when a vegan ate a steak. Researchers had hypothesized that vegans would not have as many of the gut bacteria needed to make TMAO, and indeed virtually no TMAO appeared in the vegan’s blood after he consumed a steak.

“We did not expect to see such a dramatic difference,”

If you are thinking about longevity and your future health, then it is best minimize meat consumption, specially red meat.

However, if you want to maintain a 200lbs+ body weight and have the physique of an MMA fighter, you can't do it on a mainly vegetarian diet.

You can be lean, and look like a soccer player, but I don't think you will get big on a largely vegetarian diet. You are trading the big muscles for more long term benefits.

[JayMillz]

Probably the most compelling argument: http://www.healthguidance.org/entry/1622...otein.html

[JayMillz]

(04-14-2013 10:32 AM)ManAbout Wrote:  

You are trading the big muscles for more long term benefits.

Good point. You will always need your health. As you mature, big muscles probably become much less of a priority.

[Pete]

You don't need any arguments. You live the way you want to live. You eat what you want to eat. You're the only one who will face the consequences.

I love meat. Especially Ribeye Steak,

[TheCaptainPower]

I cut down on my red meat, but nothing beats a nice piece of salmon...

[Veloce]

The problem in the U.S. is the quality of meat.

Red meat was never meant to be marbled or corn fed. I'm not going to play internet detective but do your own research on the health benefits of pastured meat vs. commercial. Everything from eggs, to poultry, to beef.

Now, pastured meat is more expensive, much more so. It's much higher quality. But remember that at one point in recent human history, humans spent up to 50% of their disposable income on food. This was before internet, cell phones, cable T.V., and all the other useless shit that people think they need.

In many parts of the world this is still the case. The majority of the world has a very deep food culture that the U.S. does not, especially Asian and European countries. I'm not talking about sheer enjoyment of eating, I'm talking about the amount of CARE that goes into WHAT they eat.

They eat plenty of animal fat in France. Butter, foie gras, beef. Until recently, they didn't have the same factory farming processes that we do here. But look at their BMI. Italy and France are the slimmest European countries. Italy of all places, where they eat pasta on a daily basis. Yeah they use a lot of olive oil but they don't shy on the butter or cream either. It's all in HOW they eat. They typically eat pasta only at lunchtime, and their dinner is typically some sort of protein with a salad.

For a lot of people in these cultures, they spend a lot of their day thinking about and planning food. They LOVE food. It's important to them. When you spend that much time thinking about your next meal, it makes sense that they care about the quality as much as they do. Europe, in general, has much much higher restrictions on GMOs, pesticides, and other harmful chemicals or alterations to their food supply. They care about what their livestock eat.

Generally speaking, most Americans just don't give a shit. They want their 99 cent hamburgers. This really isn't an issue of meat vs. no meat, it's about food quality.

Good quality food (farmer's market produce, raw pastured dairy, grassfed livestock, wild seafood) has a stigma of being reserved for rich yuppies. Yeah, it's more expensive, but would you rather spend money on delicious food NOW? Or eat shit food and deal with medication and hospital bills LATER? Do people really need smart phones and 300 channels? Or would that money be better spend on higher quality calories and clean water?

[Fitzgerald]

(04-14-2013 12:43 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

The problem in the U.S. is the quality of meat.

This! Commercial beef in the US sucks. I went to college in northern Colorado, near feedlots and abattoirs. Every Wednesday, the town smelled particularly bad, because they were boiling down the blood from slaughtered cows and putting it in the feed to give to the cows being fatted (Soylent green, anyone?). Commercial cattle are fed grain diets that lead to bad Omega3/6 imbalance, and pumped full of hormones and antibiotics as well, though nearly everyone knows that part.

If you haven't yet, stop by unleashthebeef.com. It's a blog by a dude who started eating nothing but grass-fed beef raised by the Amish. He claims to have spent a period prior to that eating a mostly vegan diet.

Though, think of it this way: What if the health benefits of a vegetarian diet come not so much from subtracting meat as the increase of fruits and vegetables? One of the most terrifically unhealthy people I know has been a vegan for 10+ years. In his early 30s, he's at least 60 lbs overweight, and alternates between canes and wheelchairs for mobility. He also suffers migraines and Tinnitus.
Another friend I have is a young Native American woman with Juvenile diabetes (she's slim, not overweight). She switched to veganism, and almost immediately afterward started complaining of low energy levels, headaches, and she started catching bugs real easy. 100 years ago, her family was hunting and gathering, not eating grains and tofu.

Every body is different, and if you're eating in a way that gives you high energy and helps you heal (regenerate) and build muscle (muscles are the engine of youth) quicker, you're doing it right, whether vegetarian, omnivore, or straight carnivore.

[JayMillz]

I see more people giving up cigarettes, bread, milk/dairy, etc., but it doesn't look like vegan lifestyle will catch on in mass despite the poor quality and health hazards associated with meat in the USA.

[MikeCF]

(04-14-2013 10:32 AM)ManAbout Wrote:  

You are trading the big muscles for more long term benefits.

I'd rather go through my 30s and 40s jacked than live an extra 5-10 years.

Have you got to watch someone you love dearly grow old and slowly creep into dementia? If you haven't, you will.

It was a very depressing experience and reaffirmed my belief that shaving off the last 5-10 years of life is the way to go.

[Veloce]

Couldn't agree more with MikeCF. I've got a grandma that just slipped into a coma yesterday at 97, and my grandpa is watching her at 101. We have crazy longevity genes, and at this point I'm not sure if that's a blessing or a curse. Their last 10 years have not been what I would call amazing years, though they've both had an amazing life.

I've never been one to give myself any kind of timeline until recently. These days, I'm feeling like:

30s: get as jacked as humanly possible. This is my real prime. Do absolutely all and everything I possibly can on my bucket list.

39: start thinking about settling down and having a kid or two

40s: raise the kids, support the fam.

58: kids leave the roost. Have a 3/4 life crisis. Buy flashy red convertible, go on international sex tour.

65+: milk every day I can until I slip into the void. Not give a single fuck about adding years to my life, but adding life to my years.

[JayMillz]

(04-14-2013 04:59 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

58: kids leave the roost. Have a 3/4 life crisis. Buy flashy red convertible, go on international sex tour.

65+: milk every day I can until I slip into the void. Not give a single fuck about adding years to my life, but adding life to my years.

This guy was 60 when this was taped and he probably hasn't even had the best healthcare judging from his teeth.

[Pacific]

@thedude

Do you have any recommendations for good source of meat in LA? Looks like the price is going to be over the $10/lb mark right? I have mostly switched my veggies to local organic farmed ones, but the meat I'm still not sure where I can get quality stuff for reasonable price, although maybe that's impossible. Trader Joe's seem to have pretty good eggs for reasonable price, that's where I get all my eggs.

[sheesh]

(04-14-2013 12:43 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

In many parts of the world this is still the case. The majority of the world has a very deep food culture that the U.S. does not, especially Asian and European countries. I'm not talking about sheer enjoyment of eating, I'm talking about the amount of CARE that goes into WHAT they eat.

They eat plenty of animal fat in France. Butter, foie gras, beef. Until recently, they didn't have the same factory farming processes that we do here. But look at their BMI. Italy and France are the slimmest European countries. Italy of all places, where they eat pasta on a daily basis. Yeah they use a lot of olive oil but they don't shy on the butter or cream either. It's all in HOW they eat. They typically eat pasta only at lunchtime, and their dinner is typically some sort of protein with a salad.

Don't be fooled about food quality in Europe. We hear of one food scandal after another in the media.

When it's not eggs that contain carciogenic dioxin it's spoiled meat that has been used for burgers or Döner, or to name the latest scandal, processed horse meat from Romania that has been sold as pork or beef throughout Europe...the list goes on and on.

Europe may be stricter on food laws in some ways but it's far from being a paradise.


My grandparents ate meat once a week (on Sundays) on average and my parents didn't have meat every day on their plates either because meat has always been expensive and somehting special.

These days, however, people think it's normal to have meat for lunch every day...I'm pretty sure that througout human history meat was always somehting special and nothing you consumed every day.


I also think that our modern habit of daily meat consumption is not sustainable environmentally. If you want to feed a whole society with meat non stop, you're simply not going to achieve this by only raising happy grass fed cows under the blue sky, you will need mass production.

[InternationPlayboy]

(04-14-2013 09:55 AM)JayMillz Wrote:  

So I thought it was a pretty st8 forward question. I've heard everything from people getting high on meat to meeting pretty girls in the meat restaurants. But, I haven't heard a generalizable rationale.

I thought because it tastes good as fuck was a pretty straight forward rationale.

[InternationPlayboy]

(04-14-2013 12:43 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

The problem in the U.S. is the quality of meat.

Red meat was never meant to be marbled or corn fed. I'm not going to play internet detective but do your own research on the health benefits of pastured meat vs. commercial. Everything from eggs, to poultry, to beef.

Now, pastured meat is more expensive, much more so. It's much higher quality. But remember that at one point in recent human history, humans spent up to 50% of their disposable income on food. This was before internet, cell phones, cable T.V., and all the other useless shit that people think they need.

In many parts of the world this is still the case. The majority of the world has a very deep food culture that the U.S. does not, especially Asian and European countries. I'm not talking about sheer enjoyment of eating, I'm talking about the amount of CARE that goes into WHAT they eat.

They eat plenty of animal fat in France. Butter, foie gras, beef. Until recently, they didn't have the same factory farming processes that we do here. But look at their BMI. Italy and France are the slimmest European countries. Italy of all places, where they eat pasta on a daily basis. Yeah they use a lot of olive oil but they don't shy on the butter or cream either. It's all in HOW they eat. They typically eat pasta only at lunchtime, and their dinner is typically some sort of protein with a salad.

For a lot of people in these cultures, they spend a lot of their day thinking about and planning food. They LOVE food. It's important to them. When you spend that much time thinking about your next meal, it makes sense that they care about the quality as much as they do. Europe, in general, has much much higher restrictions on GMOs, pesticides, and other harmful chemicals or alterations to their food supply. They care about what their livestock eat.

Generally speaking, most Americans just don't give a shit. They want their 99 cent hamburgers. This really isn't an issue of meat vs. no meat, it's about food quality.

Good quality food (farmer's market produce, raw pastured dairy, grassfed livestock, wild seafood) has a stigma of being reserved for rich yuppies. Yeah, it's more expensive, but would you rather spend money on delicious food NOW? Or eat shit food and deal with medication and hospital bills LATER? Do people really need smart phones and 300 channels? Or would that money be better spend on higher quality calories and clean water?

Great post. The conditions the animals most of us consume are raised in is atrocious.

[Veloce]

(04-14-2013 05:33 PM)Pacific Wrote:  

@thedude

Do you have any recommendations for good source of meat in LA? Looks like the price is going to be over the $10/lb mark right? I have mostly switched my veggies to local organic farmed ones, but the meat I'm still not sure where I can get quality stuff for reasonable price, although maybe that's impossible. Trader Joe's seem to have pretty good eggs for reasonable price, that's where I get all my eggs.

Here's the problem with grocery stores: you're at the mercy of the purchasing manager. They themselves are relatively clueless about food and only stock what they *think* the general public wants. However you want to get to know this person, and I'll explain below.

I know it's expensive, but farmer's markets are your best option for meat, because you get to talk to the actual people that raise the animals. There are several vendors I'd recommend from the Hollywood and Santa Monica markets. There's Organic Pastures, Lindner Bison, and a guy that sells mostly squash but has a few ice chests that are labelled "Farmer to you Pork" and "Farmer to you Beef". His pork is ridiculously good, and it's because he feeds his pigs rotten produce (I know that sounds bad, but this is a good thing. Feeding pigs pumpkins, squash, and apples is unheard of in large scale livestock production); whatever he doesn't sell of his apples and pumpkins, he feeds to the pigs. You can taste the difference; the sugars in the apples and squash really come through.

Your second best option is Whole Foods. As I started above, you want to talk to the purchasing manager. If they don't have what you want, they should be able to special order damn near anything. If you can't afford steaks, buy ground or stewing meat. Both of those should be well below $10 per pound.

For those that have some freezer space and are really serious about this shit, get to know a farmer. Start at a farmer's market and become a regular. I know I could go out to Chino Valley Farms and talk to a few people and they'd point me in the right direction if I wanted to buy a quarter steer. Farmers typically buy or barter for their meat like this. Everyone's pricing is different but you should be able to buy a quarter steer for $1.50 to $2.50 per pound. Keep in mind that's the "hang weight" that includes bones. Quarter steer usually runs 200-250 lbs. That's a lot of money but now you have a shit ton of meat, enough for a year or so depending on your consumption. At that point you pay a butcher (or me ) to fabricate all the different cuts, wrap them individually, and freeze them. I can't calculate all that at the moment but this is, by far, the most cost-efficient way of eating locally raised, high quality, pastured meat.

[Veloce]

(04-14-2013 06:05 PM)sheesh Wrote:  

(04-14-2013 12:43 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

In many parts of the world this is still the case. The majority of the world has a very deep food culture that the U.S. does not, especially Asian and European countries. I'm not talking about sheer enjoyment of eating, I'm talking about the amount of CARE that goes into WHAT they eat.

They eat plenty of animal fat in France. Butter, foie gras, beef. Until recently, they didn't have the same factory farming processes that we do here. But look at their BMI. Italy and France are the slimmest European countries. Italy of all places, where they eat pasta on a daily basis. Yeah they use a lot of olive oil but they don't shy on the butter or cream either. It's all in HOW they eat. They typically eat pasta only at lunchtime, and their dinner is typically some sort of protein with a salad.

Don't be fooled about food quality in Europe. We hear of one food scandal after another in the media.

When it's not eggs that contain carciogenic dioxin it's spoiled meat that has been used for burgers or Döner, or to name the latest scandal, processed horse meat from Romania that has been sold as pork or beef throughout Europe...the list goes on and on.

Europe may be stricter on food laws in some ways but it's far from being a paradise.


My grandparents ate meat once a week (on Sundays) on average and my parents didn't have meat every day on their plates either because meat has always been expensive and somehting special.

These days, however, people think it's normal to have meat for lunch every day...I'm pretty sure that througout human history meat was always somehting special and nothing you consumed every day.


I also think that our modern habit of daily meat consumption is not sustainable environmentally. If you want to feed a whole society with meat non stop, you're simply not going to achieve this by only raising happy grass fed cows under the blue sky, you will need mass production.

I didn't mean to paint Europe as this food lover's mecca; in looking over my post that's how it comes across.

I remember one year there was almost no production of artisan mozzarella from Campania (the region in Italy that produces most/the best mozzarella) because the water buffalo food supply had been tainted by industrial chemical waste.

Then that little thing called Mad Cow happened.

But here's where I think Europe is different: When shit like that happens, citizens get OUTRAGED. You get shit like a farmer in France that tried to bulldoze a McDonald's. It seems to me that citizens there are more reactive to people fucking with their food supply.

In the U.S., you get companies like Monsanto that pump millions of pounds of nitrogen and phosphorous into the Mississippi river that affects millions of acres of ecosystems, and the government and people turn a blind eye except for a few liberal consumer groups.

[ManAbout]

(04-14-2013 04:25 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(04-14-2013 10:32 AM)ManAbout Wrote:  

You are trading the big muscles for more long term benefits.

I'd rather go through my 30s and 40s jacked than live an extra 5-10 years.

Have you got to watch someone you love dearly grow old and slowly creep into dementia? If you haven't, you will.

It was a very depressing experience and reaffirmed my belief that shaving off the last 5-10 years of life is the way to go.

I don't know about dementia, but many old age illnesses and problems later in life are also caused by diet.

While shaving 5 to 10 years off might seem like a reasonable trade off for muscles, who is to say it couldn't be 20 years or more? The risk of cancer and other diseases increases significantly in your 40s and beyond.

[Sherman]

My arguments:

1. It's healthy

Read the book "Deep Nutrition: Why Your Genes Need Traditional Food".

http://www.amazon.com/Deep-Nutrition-You...0615228380

This book discusses findings from the new field of epigenetics to show how a traditional diet, including meat, has influenced the proper expression and functioning of our genes. In brief - we are structurally healthy today because our ancestors developed a quit advanced culinary technology( including meat) that made future generations with strong and healthy bodies. To put it another way, you don't have bad teeth, narrow jaws, deteriorating knee joints, and all of the other thousands of imperfections that make life miserable because your ancestors ate meat.

All authentic cuisines of the world include foods from the following four categories: Meat on the Bone, Organ meats, Fermented and sprouted foods, Fresh, uncooked ingredients.

2. No need to change because of pseudo science driven by political/ideological/spiritual agendas

Much of the push and advocacy of veganism/vegetarianism is coming from ideologically motivated groups who are distorting data and making things up in order to frighten people from eating meat. One common distortion of data is to cite studies showing meat harmful, but not mentioning that the "meat" used in all these studies included processed meat(like hotdogs) which contains nitrates. Nitrates are already know to be harmful to humans, so these studies tell you nothing about the health benefits of unadulterated red meat. Also, there is the book "China Study" which was in fact, not the original China study, but a highly biased interpretation. The list goes on and on. Beware of those trying to frighten you out of a healthy diet due to ulterior motives.

A good book to read on this topic is "The Vegtarian Myth: Food, Justice, and Sustainability"

http://www.amazon.com/The-Vegetarian-Myt...arian+myth

3. Veganism is dangerous

Dozens of vegan couples have been tried in courts of law and sent to prison for criminally deprieving their children of necessary nutrition.

French vegan couple whose baby died face prison
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...iency.html

http://drbenkim.com/articles-cdvegandiet.html


4. Fight vegetarian fascism - eat meat

The Dalits (untouchables) of India have suffered some of the most viscious discrimination known to man at the hands of vegetarians. The Dalits, who do the most menial dangerous labor, eat meat because they need the energy and nutrition to do all the dirty work.

Protest of Ban on Beef Festival in Campus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2xT71IpYUk

http://kafila.org/2012/05/02/resisting-c...tacharjee/