[Spike]

(04-11-2013 09:26 AM)Kentucky Wrote:  

Good points Neil, but I still think there is much to learn from their economic model

I don't know much how their economic model is structured but Greek Kamaki had some good insights on their work ethics and how they are super organized and work highly efficient There is no second guessing in German organisations.

[Spike]

(04-11-2013 09:41 AM)Teedub Wrote:  

(04-11-2013 07:18 AM)Neil Skywalker Wrote:  

Germans are successful because because they are Germans to start with. Germans have the strictest work ethics, best work mentality and never seem to give up. Two things define Germans from the rest of the world and it is said best in their own language.

1 - "Befehl ist befehl" which translates to "An order is an order" Germans do not question their boss. They do what they're told. German organisations are very strict. They do not know such a thing as "yes, but..."
That's how it has been in all German levels of society but is best known in the Militairy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders

That "order" quote is interesting for obvious reasons. Wish I'd known about it when I was doing my final dissertation. (It was about Himmler's culpability for the holocaust)

German's (the ones I know) are awesome, but as others have said, they are really hard working and very efficient, even in their personal lives. The way they interact and everything is very down the line. It can come across as rude sometimes, but it isn't coming from a bad place - it's just the way they get things done. It isn't "Hey, we've run out of sugar, could you go to the shop please", it's more like "We are out of sugar, this must be replaced". Haha, maybe not quite as robotic as that, but you get the point.

I love Germany, if the women were slimmer, I'd relocate there in a heartbeat.

Germans are indeed a bit robotic in social situations. A bit nerdy might I say.
They are great travelers. I have met Germans everywhere in the world. Places where i didn't expected anything but locals there was always a German around. I met so many Germans that I sometimes changed their nationality to Swiss or Austrians in my book.

Germany is not a bad place to live if you can deal with their culture. You won't get tax raped by the government if you own a house or car like in Holland. Hard work and making money is rewarded there and not frowned upon.

[Mekorig]

I have a friend living in Germany for at least a decade now. He is happy to live there, but yes, he told me that german are a bit akward in social situations, but when they form a bond, they are fantastic friends. When i visited him i found the country nice, but i do not think i would live there.

[TheRookie]

If you looked at ethnic Germans in the United States I think you would find them to be very successful on the whole.

[Vicious]

(04-11-2013 07:18 AM)Neil Skywalker Wrote:  

An example is the German WW2 Tiger tank. It was the perfect machine in every way possible. It was so perfect that it took ages to fabricate while the Russian tanks where basically pieces of junk but mass produced by the thousands with horrible welding and many flaws. No Russian tank looked alike while German tiger tanks where perfect clones. These Tiger tanks was so strong that Russian tanks had to sometimes form a circle around a Tiger and to keep firing at close range at it until it broke. That's also how the German ship the Bismarck was sunk. One lucky hit destroyed its rudder and left it steer less and then allied ships formed a circle and fired relentlessly on it for days until it sank.

Neil, I really can't agree with the military data you're presenting here.

1. Had you said the Panther Tank I would have agreed with you. The tiger while a powerful and fearsome tank had (and has) a reputation that was greater than its actual abilities. It was too heavy and fuel-inefficient to really make it a game changer. In fact it was the Panther that in many times truly challenged the allies on the western front. As it could give effective fire outside the American tanks range most engagements were they went unchallenged were credited on the allied side as being a Tiger tank attack. The latter was an effective propaganda weapon more than anything else.

2. Russian tanks where far from the slapdash constructions you make it out to be. The Russian T-34 tank is the most successful tank of all time. Already in 1941 it was on paper better than the German Panzer IV which was Germany's best offer at the time. They did suffer from a lack of radio and poorly trained crew which resulted in them getting slaughtered in the field during Operation Barbarossa. With these downsides seen to however they proved to be formidable opposition to the German Panzers from 1942 and out. Far more so than the western allies tank offerings who never really could match the Panther, Tiger let alone the monumental Jagdpanther.

3. Despite being a marvel of naval engineering The Bismarck wouldn't have had any real chance against the British fleet outside a raid scenario (which Gneisenau, Admiral Scheer and Scharnhorst excelled at). The British at the time still had the world's best trained naval officers and crews and could employ aircraft carriers unlike Germany. Sweden also shared a lot of naval intelligence which ultimately led to Bismarck's demise. A superb ship but would ultimately have been resources best spent elsewhere for the Wehrmacht. The cards where stacked against it.


Yeah, military history is a hobby of mine.

[Branimir]

Kamaki is right, but since the beginning of the 2000's things went a bit backwards.
The greatest times were in the 70's and 80's, even a simple waiter was getting big money.
Companies constantly had meetings in restaurants and none of the workers had to pay for the expenses.
The greed and pressure of the anglo american system began to take over though by the time the 2000's are to be reached bits by bits, and all the growth and rise of GDP went to a small percentage of rich people.
The university education was changed to the american system of bachelors and masters.
Most Universities are overstrained and underfinanced.
The structures of our economy are much more deadlocked and poisonous to for people starting up their own company.
Too much laws and overregulation for irrelevant things, a deadly enviroment again for people trying to be innovative, instead they get pushed down by the government.
Taxes on every possible little thingy, everything from little changes to details have to be reported.

Don't think Germans are that much better off from the rest of Europe.
Yes, the economical situation seems better, but they're working their ass off for this.
Oh yes Italy, Spain and Greece are pretty much economically ruined but people be sitting and chilling outside on a sunny day at their nearest cafe chatting over a nice coffee.
Meanwhile in rich Deutschland the german wakes up at 5-6 am while everything is still dark, in order to show up punctual at work. The work he does really IS work, he gets his 30-45 minutes of break, but the other 8-9 hours ARE constant efficient work. Then he gets at home 5-6 pm, maybe even later, gets to eat a meal , watches 1-2 hrs tv or goes online, and then already prepares for sleep and the next day of work.
I bet you , the amount of miserable stressed out people visiting psyschologists and taking medications for sure IS higher than in all those southern european countries.
People should take a look at the dark side of all this too.

[Hades]

(04-11-2013 12:32 PM)Mekorig Wrote:  

I have a friend living in Germany for at least a decade now. He is happy to live there, but yes, he told me that german are a bit akward in social situations, but when they form a bond, they are fantastic friends. When i visited him i found the country nice, but i do not think i would live there.

They're definitely a different crowd to be sure. Even the guys seem flaky and do a lot of odd social shit tests. I was not sure what to make of the crowd there as I couldn't seem to make lasting friendships with any of the Germans though I did with some Brazilians and spent less time with them. That might be just because I have a village mentality when it comes to making friends with dudes and all these guys were pseudo cosmopolitans living in Dresden.

[bojangles]

(04-11-2013 09:38 AM)tenderman100 Wrote:  

(04-11-2013 12:05 AM)T and A Man Wrote:  

(04-10-2013 08:22 PM)tenderman100 Wrote:  

America has Bill Gates. Germany doesn't.

American had Steve Jobs. Germany didn't...and never will.

America innovates amazing advances -- Germany advances the design and technology of things already created.

America pushes the envelope and its entrepreneurs take risks -- Germany stay inside the envelope.

Karl Benz, Werner von Braun, Albert Einstein say hello.

They can't say hello. They're dead. They're from a different time. We're talking TODAY.

Jobs is dead, true, but he wouldn't have been dead had he paid attention to his doctor.

Where are the great innovators and entrepreneurs in German business today? Who has built an great company from the ground up? Who are the game changers? Can you name me one?

You can say this all you want, but no matter what time period, what kind of government is in charge, what wars are being waged, the Germans have been inventing shit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ger...iscoverers

Whilst the Nazi party were ruling Germany, they were the first to discover that smoking caused lung cancer and was a cause of miscarriages in pregnancies and banned it, it took another 30-40 years before the USA even decided that was the case and it was true. Man the Nazis discovered most of the medical techniques used to day, most of the animal conservation legislature used worldwide (ironically considering how they treated other humans), fashion (your Hugo Boss', Adidas', Puma's etc all of which are going strong) and strong manufacturing like Volkswagen etc.

The fact that companies like Volkswagen are still going strong without needing government rescues like GM (are that so called free market world in the USA) should tell you how good their innovations are, even their companies are built to stand the tests of hard financial times.

I think something like 51 out of the top 100 German countries are family run.

http://www.dw.de/next-generation-of-germ...a-16290521

You only have to read the article above to see the German attitude to work and life.

Have you heard of SAP?

[BoiBoi]

(04-12-2013 04:47 AM)bojangles Wrote:  

(04-11-2013 09:38 AM)tenderman100 Wrote:  

(04-11-2013 12:05 AM)T and A Man Wrote:  

(04-10-2013 08:22 PM)tenderman100 Wrote:  

America has Bill Gates. Germany doesn't.

American had Steve Jobs. Germany didn't...and never will.

America innovates amazing advances -- Germany advances the design and technology of things already created.

America pushes the envelope and its entrepreneurs take risks -- Germany stay inside the envelope.

Karl Benz, Werner von Braun, Albert Einstein say hello.

They can't say hello. They're dead. They're from a different time. We're talking TODAY.

Jobs is dead, true, but he wouldn't have been dead had he paid attention to his doctor.

Where are the great innovators and entrepreneurs in German business today? Who has built an great company from the ground up? Who are the game changers? Can you name me one?

You can say this all you want, but no matter what time period, what kind of government is in charge, what wars are being waged, the Germans have been inventing shit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ger...iscoverers

Whilst the Nazi party were ruling Germany, they were the first to discover that smoking caused lung cancer and was a cause of miscarriages in pregnancies and banned it, it took another 30-40 years before the USA even decided that was the case and it was true. Man the Nazis discovered most of the medical techniques used to day, most of the animal conservation legislature used worldwide (ironically considering how they treated other humans), fashion (your Hugo Boss', Adidas', Puma's etc all of which are going strong) and strong manufacturing like Volkswagen etc.

The fact that companies like Volkswagen are still going strong without needing government rescues like GM (are that so called free market world in the USA) should tell you how good their innovations are, even their companies are built to stand the tests of hard financial times.

I think something like 51 out of the top 100 German countries are family run.

http://www.dw.de/next-generation-of-germ...a-16290521

You only have to read the article above to see the German attitude to work and life.

Have you heard of SAP?

Word. You can say what you want about Germans. That we have ugly girls, are socially handicapped, have weak game, shitty food, etc., but you can't deny the German work ethic, ingenuity or craftsmanship.

Just because the US is strong in the field of inventing fancy stuff like Google, Facebook or the iPhone doesn't take away the fact that Germany still rules when it comes to heavy machinery, special tools and alike. Don't believe me? Check out Schott AG, ZF Lenksysteme, Würth, etc. All are world market leaders in their respective fields. Just because you don't know them, doesn't mean that they don't exist.

I don't deny the fact that the US has strong innovative companies, especially in the IT field, but when it comes to engineering, Germans are hard to beat.

I don't think that this has to do with our social market economy, though, because we have a long tradition of doing that shit, way before the country as such existed. Maybe G.Kamaki is right and it all boils down to the ugly girls, shitty weather, etc. because what else is there to do, but use your head and work?

[T and A Man]

You don't work hard because you'r girls are too ugly to fuck or the weather keeps you indoors. You work because once you do it, and you get sufficiently rewarded for it, you say to yourself "shit, this is alright. I'll keep on working to get more rewards".

Very few countries, if any, reward toil and physical exertion like Germany.

Even pointing out Steve Jobs, first time he ripped off virtually everything from the government subsidised Xerox laboratories and marketed it better, and was king until Bill Gates came along and outmarketed him.

Anyone remember here know the guys name from Xerox who invented the GUI?

[Greek kamaki]

Greece is the exact opposite from Germany.Great weather, great food, hot women and shitty craftsmanship, work ethics and infrastructure.
It all depends where you put attention at.Germany at first has a depressive effect on the common Balkan which gradually fades away as your attention shifts from the women to the buildings and the infrastructure.

[Derpface200]

I'd also like to point out that Germany's industry is still strong because their leaders weren't retarded. They realized a while back that Germany couldn't possibly compete with the cheap goods coming out of China and India, so they set up specialty and niche manufacturing.

Allow me to highlight the strengths of Germany's mittelstand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelstand

Many Mittelstand companies are export-oriented. They focus on innovative and high value manufactured products and occupy worldwide niche market leadership positions in numerous B2B segments.[1] They are typically privately owned and often based in small rural communities. Many of the successful Mittelstand companies combine a [b][b]cautious and long-term oriented approach to business[/b][/b] with the adoption of modern management practices, like employing outside professional management and the implementation of lean manufacturing practices and total quality management.[1] The Mittelstand emphasis on long-term profitability stands in contrast to the public corporations of many countries (including German public corporations) which face quarterly or annual pressure to meet expectations.

Typically, Mittelstand companies work closely with universities and researchers and cluster themselves around big manufacturers. Mittelstand companies benefit from Germany's apprentice system, which provides skilled workers.

[Greek kamaki]

Germans chose to focus on high tech and complicated advanced machinery products which cannot be competed by cheap Chinese ones since the latter cannot have the same quality.One part of this is because Germans refuse to outsource their production line and manufacturing secrets.
So everyone has to pay a royalty to German superior goods.As mad imitators as Asians are they cannot copy cat a German product.The German high organizational and cryptic model does not allow that.Generally Germans are rather smart they play from power positions.They use a lot of methds other folks are totally unaccustomed to and are masters in deception,bluff,quick action and terror.When you deal with Germans your ass feels sqeezed as we say here and for a reason.

Another reason for German advance is that they refused to accept cheap labor from third world in their country regarding them as unsuitable for German high tech facilities.They followed completely the opposite path from Anglosaxon countries which centered on outsourcing and importing millions of illegal immigrants to boost domestic production.Germans soon understood the basic fault of this combination took drastic measures against and found themselves in position of power when the Anglosaxon model started shaking.They completed their domination with dumping of local salaries which in terms of free economy seemed unreasonable.So they used unorthodox economics and refused all recent advances in economic thinking from the West with a stubborn resistance and focus on real production,antiinflation policy iron fisted domestic price and wages policy,regulation of offer and demand from above,war against the south,alliance with Russia for free energy flow and with China for machinery supply to build cheap Russian goods for the international and US market.

So the roots of German superiority are:
1.Refusal to outsource production(in order to keep German brand names fame intact and avoid competition)
2.Refusal to reduce salaries by importing third world labor(in order to avoid softening of inner front and Germanic quality)
3.Refusal to increase local wages despite good economic performance(in order to remain competitive despite market laws for slowing of performance by redistribution)
4.Refusal to print more euros despite pressure from the south(in order to largely exploit the inflationary pressure from the southern consumerism and living off the means to their advantage to keep euro cheaper than the Mark and artificially cheapen German products)
5.Refusal to move from real goods production to finance and services production(in order to remain rich and strong to keep the infrastructure,to block attempts for speculation,tax evasion,pressure and game with money and creating of bubbles out of thin air).

This Germanic dominance based on negation is a negation itself a deep doubt on basic capitalist admissions of the West.It is viewed as catatsrophic from southern point of view and is strictlry German does not inspire any other nation politically.

In my opinion all the above are due to the considerable power of the German ''Klein Mensch''(small people).The Klein Mensch the average German has the power to spit on big corporations and energetically doubt their power.He can keep them within limits.This power of small people is viewed as fascistic from southern point of view and is attributed to the lack of Roman dominance on German lands in the past(the free barbarians opposed it and kept their individualistic forms).
The power of Klein Mensch is represented in the labor Unions which hold considerable power in Germany and stand head to head in negotiations with the corporation executives and the government officials(public,corporations and government are the three sources of power in Germany) when strategic decisions(regarding niveaue of salaries,quantity of production,outsourcing,importing immigrants and printing of euro) are to be taken.

[Branimir]

(04-13-2013 05:26 AM)Greek kamaki Wrote:  

...alliance with Russia for free energy flow and with China for machinery supply to build cheap Russian goods for the international and US market.

This is exactly what I'm seeing for the future.
You see all those frequent meetings inbetween those three countries, China,Russia and Germany, just like Putins recent visit to Germany where some naked feminists tried to get to him .
A new Axis opposing the Anglo-Americansphere ,as those three countries have frequent and intense communications, aswell as respect each other and recognize each others strength.
Russia the supplier, Germany the producer and China the consumer.
It's like a triangle of internal growth.
Even if the world is economically struggling, these 3 countries may be aswell the least unaffected of this downfall because they seemingly have created an self suistainable intern economic circulation that relies on real production output, which isn't being affected by Wall Street speculations.

I know this all sounds a bit vague , so please correct me if I'm talking shit, but I can't deny this observation as I know there bounds inbetween those three countries are very strong and always have been. Even after some extreme interruptions, they've always found each other again.

Even if you look 150 years back, there were chinese diplomats visiting Germany for the first time and already making business with the Krupp family, which then was exporting weapons to China.

As for Russia,there's loads of connections , like Catherina the Great being german herself, St. Petersburg being a german name (yes they call it like that also in russian) and the last tsar nicolaus being the germans Kaiser cousin (not by bloodline but still).

[Greek kamaki]

From this point to hear Germans express their high admiration for the Russian soul depths there is some distance.
No wonder also that Putin,Merkel and the Chinese leaders have all been baptized in the Bolshevik school f thought.Putin was for years head of KGB in Dresden and while Angela has stayed long in Moscow during student exchanges in former DDR.Both speak Russian and German fluently.

[Excelsior]

This documentary is quite relevant:

[Sonsowey]

Socialism doesn't exist in Europe. They have Social Democracy.

Socialism is the complete ownership of all economic activity by the State.

Social Democracy allows for capitalism, taxes it, and provides generous social benefits to the populace.

Anyway, the social benefits provided to European workers are not that expensive really, and help abate numerous problems down the road.

Americans don't like to pay up front for national healthcare. The result is we end up spending more on healthcare than any European country, because of how sick we get in the end.

You can always make the choice between paying upfront and paying down the road. Usually paying down the road ends up being more expensive.

The whole point of civilization is the ability to plan and look ahead. But the United States buries its head in the sand as its citizens become fat and sick, its physical infrastructure and educational system deteriorate, and our life span begins to drop. We could fix these problems, but have a childish inability to pay for the things we need up front.

[T and A Man]

No, socialism is the state offering universal access to certain products, where the individuals means to acquire them are irrelevant. Also the provider of the product doesn't have to be state owned, just the funding for the consumer is sufficient for it to be a social service/product.

You asserting 'social democracy' indicates you don't even know the definition. The same socialist services can be offered regardless of suffrage approaching what we call democracy.

Marxism(communism) is the denunciation of individual property rights as the state owns all property.

[Vicious]

What many people don't understand about welfare is that it can be self-sustaining to a degree.

When your basic standard of living is guaranteed it reduces crime, which in turn boosts Quality of Life. Paying people social security is cheaper than locking them up as well. It'd be interesting to see how much the prison industrial complex is costing the US as opposed to social security.

When education is subsidized with taxes it frees up parents who would otherwise be saving for their kids college funds for 15+ years. Because everyone also has access to education you don't lose people from the study-track and by extension, the economy.

When the state is the provider of health it also keeps the leverage when acquiring health services and supplies. So when you pay for healthcare through your taxes instead of private vendors, the buyer can for example, establish legislation dictating adequate salaries and profits for the people involved.

The American people, and hard workers like people on this board mostly are, scoff at getting something for nothing and they are right to a degree. You have to look at it from a perspective of it being something done for you as the side-effect will improve your surroundings.

[poutsara]

Once again Kamaki you break it down!

(04-13-2013 05:26 AM)Greek kamaki Wrote:  

1.Refusal to outsource production(in order to keep German brand names fame intact and avoid competition)
2.Refusal to reduce salaries by importing third world labor(in order to avoid softening of inner front and Germanic quality)

Obviously the big consulting firms haven't gotten to them.

(04-13-2013 05:26 AM)Greek kamaki Wrote:  

5.Refusal to move from real goods production to finance and services production(in order to remain rich and strong to keep the infrastructure,to block attempts for speculation,tax evasion,pressure and game with money and creating of bubbles out of thin air).

This is huge. I think this will be a main contributor to the downfall of the US if it happens - our grown in financialization rather than actual goods. And you are spot on to link this to bubbles, speculation, tax evasions, and general "game with money".

[cardguy]

This thread reminds me of an interesting quote from Milton Friedman:

Quote:

A Scandinavian economist once said to Milton Friedman, ‘In Scandinavia, we have no poverty’. Milton Friedman replied, ‘That’s interesting, because in America, among Scandinavians, we have no poverty, either’.

[Greek kamaki]

This is because Scandinavian settlers to the US faithful to the Malthus principle chose to get vast pieces of land instead of locating in the cities.This proved wise choice in the long term.The same in Scandinavia they have too little population for too much land and resources guaranteeing the well being of everyone.

[MrLemon]

(04-10-2013 08:22 PM)tenderman100 Wrote:  

America has Bill Gates. Germany doesn't.

American had Steve Jobs. Germany didn't...and never will.

America innovates amazing advances -- Germany advances the design and technology of things already created.

America pushes the envelope and its entrepreneurs take risks -- Germany stay inside the envelope.

This.

Americans have invented every major high-tech product of the last 50 years. Our military rules the planet with an iron fist of weapon systems that orbit the planet; we could kill a billion people in the blink of an eye, we can (an do) track down and kill enemies in the most remote mountain range with pinpoint precision.

Socialism? Capitalism? Fuck. These labels are for children. What matters is raw power. America has it. They don't.

[Emancipator]

(04-14-2013 10:46 AM)MrLemon Wrote:  

Socialism? Capitalism? Fuck. These labels are for children. What matters is raw power. America has it. They don't.

[Teedub]

(04-14-2013 10:46 AM)MrLemon Wrote:  

This.

Americans have invented every major high-tech product of the last 50 years. Our military rules the planet with an iron fist of weapon systems that orbit the planet; we could kill a billion people in the blink of an eye, we can (an do) track down and kill enemies in the most remote mountain range with pinpoint precision.

Socialism? Capitalism? Fuck. These labels are for children. What matters is raw power. America has it. They don't.