[speakeasy]

(04-12-2013 01:57 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

Software is really hard, you are competing with really smart geeks who are younger who learned programming at 14, 15, it's like trying to learn Sanskrit if you are over 21.

Can't learn programming after the age of 21? Come on...If you can't learn it at 21 then you wouldn't have learned it at 14 either.

Quote:

You can never compete with an Indian who will work for nothing unless you are in sales, network security or something else that requires your physical presence in the USA.

There are plenty of developers working in first world countries for a good living. I'm too lazy to pull of the bureau of labor stats right now, but you don't have to be living in India working for slave wages to become a programmer. Let's also not forget that the average IQ in India is 81. You probably need a minimum IQ of 120 to be a programmer. There's only going to be so many Indians that can become programmers, probably no more than a few percent of the population that would be able to do it. So there's ultimately a limit to how much talent they can tap.

[worldwidetraveler]

(04-13-2013 01:48 AM)Seduction Sutra Wrote:  

I don't know why you get butthurt over this. You don't know me and my background. And I am just sharing my life experience here, if you don't have similar point of view then you don't need to be anal.

You seem to be overly interested in my buttocks. You may be on the wrong forum.

[worldwidetraveler]

(04-13-2013 02:21 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(04-12-2013 01:57 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

Software is really hard, you are competing with really smart geeks who are younger who learned programming at 14, 15, it's like trying to learn Sanskrit if you are over 21.

Can't learn programming after the age of 21? Come on...If you can't learn it at 21 then you wouldn't have learned it at 14 either.

Quote:

You can never compete with an Indian who will work for nothing unless you are in sales, network security or something else that requires your physical presence in the USA.

There are plenty of developers working in first world countries for a good living. I'm too lazy to pull of the bureau of labor stats right now, but you don't have to be living in India working for slave wages to become a programmer. Let's also not forget that the average IQ in India is 81. You probably need a minimum IQ of 120 to be a programmer. There's only going to be so many Indians that can become programmers, probably no more than a few percent of the population that would be able to do it. So there's ultimately a limit to how much talent they can tap.

I have worked with quite a few Indians. They were Ok at programming but terrible at seeing the big picture. I would have to keep their tasks small in nature and specific.

I learned programming right around late 20's. I am good but not great like many of the kids. The thing that set me apart was able to communicate with the customer and give them what they want. I guess a lot of guys so fully into programming lost social skills. Who would have thought that?

There are a lot of skills that are just as important as programming. I made a ton of money consulting where my rate was normally around $80 to $100 an hour. I bet it was more for my social skills then my programming.

[speakeasy]

^^^ when people say "consulting" I'm never quite sure what they mean by that. Is that just a fancy way of saying freelancing?

[evilhei]

(04-13-2013 01:20 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

^^^ when people say "consulting" I'm never quite sure what they mean by that. Is that just a fancy way of saying freelancing?

Yes and no. Again I can share SAP consulting experience. In this field it means that you will listen to customer and understand their requirements, then suggest them a solution and you also configure it etc. You also give tasks to programmers, solve problems, read the code etc. But the main point is to develop, implement and improve the system working together with the customer. Why exactly its called "consulting" I dont know, maybe its because the job has a start and an end - you come, do your thing and move to another project.

[speakeasy]

I haven't heard anyone mention Web Development. Probably the most ideal job as far as location independence. What are you guys thoughts on the future of this sector?

[scubapilot]

Anything in big data or cloud is gold right now.

(04-09-2013 08:12 AM)XXL Wrote:  

I'm rather green in this area so if someone has an idea please be specific. We already know the world and internet is going mobile and that google glasses is likely to be the game changer (if they actually deliver it).

I like the idea that the world getting all digital allows to make money by sitting somewhere in the world rocking your keyboard all day making cash this way. So which IT skill is worthy to focus on and why?

Ideas? Predictions? Experiences?

[UrbanNerd]

(04-09-2013 08:32 PM)iWin Wrote:  

Big Data is HUGE right now. Some data scientists are getting above 300K with the norms being 125K-150K even for college grads. Some skills you want to focus on are mathematics(specifically be well versed in stats), NoSQL(and other versions of SQL), Hadoop, R, a mainstream programming language and relational data base theory.

Heres a link to a data science course at CourseEra. It starts on May 1st and is taught by University of Washington. Alot of the fundamentals can be learned during that course.

I am currently in the Data Science Certificate program at U-Washington. I have been a long-time Oracle DBA and been raking in NSA contractor money for years BUT NSA has decided to start phasing out Oracle and moving to Hadoop. I already have Hadoop training but monitoring/administering Hadoop clouds are boring as fukk (although pays great) so I want to move to data science. It's right my alley because on has to know advanced statistics on top of the database theory and my undergraduate Math degree and 5 graduate statistics courses from my M.S. degree should help.

Now, you are wondering why do a official certificate program. Folks here in DC are "cert influenced" so I play the game.

[Scarecr0w]

(04-09-2013 08:32 PM)iWin Wrote:  

Big Data is HUGE right now. Some data scientists are getting above 300K with the norms being 125K-150K even for college grads. Some skills you want to focus on are mathematics(specifically be well versed in stats), NoSQL(and other versions of SQL), Hadoop, R, a mainstream programming language and relational data base theory.

Heres a link to a data science course at CourseEra. It starts on May 1st and is taught by University of Washington. Alot of the fundamentals can be learned during that course.

Some other great areas to get certified in would be VMWare technologies like VCP5-DCV(data center virtualization) and the VCP-Cloud cert for cloud computing.In addition certifications for Cloud Computing like the Cloud Computing Infrastructure Architect cert by IBM and the EMC Cloud Architect Certification (EMCCA) are in high demand.

I currently work remotely and I am in the data storage field. If virtual system admin work appeals to you(big demand in the cloud sphere) then being location dependent is definitely feasible since many companies don't want to take on travel costs since they manage datacenters in many different countries. It can also be dependent on making a arrangement with your manager.

Thank you for the coursera Data Science link. I will take the course seems interesting

[XXL]

thx for answers. what do you think about this...

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/3...the_Future

http://readwrite.com/2013/01/30/top-7-in...s-for-2013

http://www.businessinsider.com/10-tech-s...012-8?op=1

http://www.jobstock.com/blog/top-it-skil...2013-2014/

http://www.technewsworld.com/story/77549.html

http://www.esynergy-solutions.co.uk/blog...bout-cloud

[The Great Basilisk]

Those articles sure paint a good picture for me. Working in a company doing HTML/CSS, Javascript. PHP/MySQL and ASP.NET atm.

[tom]

I was offered a place in a masters in Computational Intelligence which I can do part-time outside work. I am unsure whether or not to take it, It won't cost much.
I know AI is going to go big and would like to get into a more interesting field, I was half thinking of moving more towards Data science or penetration testing, I'm in a software QA freelancer/contractor at the moment.
Is there anyone who has experience in this field. I've heard that you need a phd to go far in AI.

[Travesty]

The future?

Robotics and automation. Though that is something if you got in now on a small scale by buying a small robot or drone and starting to program it, it would be more available as a career in 15-20 years. Before then you'd be ground level instead of looking on indeed.com and easily finding a good gig in big city X.

I believe there will be many robots that are multifunctional and you will be able to sell software you install on the robot to help it do specific tasks.

I especially believe the synthesis of robotics and healthcare will be immense.

The term AI will be big, something tells me though it will be for a small segment of elite IQ programmers. I don't think you can "work hard" and learn to be great at extremely complex algorithms (pretty much what AI is). There is a natural amount of intelligence correlated with it that is extremely high.

My ventured guess would be out of every high school graduating class of 500 kids, maybe 2 have the inborn ability in making AI advancements.

I think that AI in the future will be the brain (very advanced API so to speak) of multipurpose robots. Still you will need many programmers to make the robots complete different detailed tasks. So instead of guys making apps for iPhones, guys will be making apps for robots to complete different detailed tasks harnessing AI created by mega geniuses that created the robot's OS. Much like only few programmers make MacOSX, iOS, Android, Linux or Windows... the rest use its powers to take actions.

Maybe the AI will be smart enough to self learn and become more efficient in how it handles these programmed tasks (doubtful in the near term), I think a completely self-learning, almost self aware AI at least 100 years off.

[The Beast1]

(04-13-2013 02:21 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(04-12-2013 01:57 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

Software is really hard, you are competing with really smart geeks who are younger who learned programming at 14, 15, it's like trying to learn Sanskrit if you are over 21.

Can't learn programming after the age of 21? Come on...If you can't learn it at 21 then you wouldn't have learned it at 14 either.

Quote:

You can never compete with an Indian who will work for nothing unless you are in sales, network security or something else that requires your physical presence in the USA.

There are plenty of developers working in first world countries for a good living. I'm too lazy to pull of the bureau of labor stats right now, but you don't have to be living in India working for slave wages to become a programmer. Let's also not forget that the average IQ in India is 81. You probably need a minimum IQ of 120 to be a programmer. There's only going to be so many Indians that can become programmers, probably no more than a few percent of the population that would be able to do it. So there's ultimately a limit to how much talent they can tap.

Agreed, programming isn't that difficult. It's the syntax that will do you in

Whoops forgot my semicolon ;

[Travesty]

Let's make a distinction for people of thinking of getting into programming:

From Not Difficult (average intelligence can learn with ease):
HTML / CSS
Basic javascript, jQuery
Basic SQL

Average Difficulty (average intelligence can learn with a fair amount of work):
High level languages - Python, C#, Java, PHP, Perl, Swift, Ruby
complex Javascript
complex SQL

Getting Difficult (average intelligence will struggle):
C++
Objective-C
very complex Javascript
very complex SQL

OK this is Difficult - (average intelligence probably will not be able to master even with tons of work - i.e. apply it to complex applications)
C language
Lisp
Clojure
Assembly language

You will see a direct correlation between these languages for jobs and barrier to entry as far as intelligence + skill is concerned.

[s3k]

All these compaies being hacked, network security need has been through the roof for over a decade. Gets so bad here in the U.S. that they hire script kiddie kids. I'm working on my BA's in computer science than applying like a md man. I've been studying network security for well over 10 years now. Only downfall you must know how to program, preferably in a few diffrent languages. Average pay for entry level penetraton tester (kinda what i do in my personal life ha) is $150,000 with a BA's and some experience in the field.

[DJ-Matt]

Get your A+ cert and learn the computer tech trade if you want to go the easy route. There's always a need for them and the pay is halfway decent. Around here the minimum is $15/hour but that's the absolute starting wage. If you've been in it for at least 2 years that goes up to $17, and by 5 years it is easily $20. I have several techs that work for me and it's difficult to even keep them around here for $17 an hour.

Myself I started with A+, Network+, MCSA never completed all the way through to MCSE, but now having been in the field for over 10 years I'm up to over $50k a year. And that's living in a small town in the middle of nowhere, if I moved back to the big city I can pull at least $80k.

[TravelerKai]

(04-02-2015 10:34 AM)DJ-Matt Wrote:  

Get your A+ cert and learn the computer tech trade if you want to go the easy route. There's always a need for them and the pay is halfway decent. Around here the minimum is $15/hour but that's the absolute starting wage. If you've been in it for at least 2 years that goes up to $17, and by 5 years it is easily $20. I have several techs that work for me and it's difficult to even keep them around here for $17 an hour.

Myself I started with A+, Network+, MCSA never completed all the way through to MCSE, but now having been in the field for over 10 years I'm up to over $50k a year. And that's living in a small town in the middle of nowhere, if I moved back to the big city I can pull at least $80k.

Stay away from this stuff. This is old hat. Azure, Microsoft Online Cloud, etc. is killing this field. Exchange on premise is almost dead and the rest will follow soon enough.

Either do

CRM/ERP/Big Data (SAP)/ Financial Systems
Security

If you must go into network (in conjunction with security) go the Cisco route or do Palo Alto stuff. Don't half ass it either. Get at least a NP/SP something like that or IE level if you want to make 300+ per hour.

Anything else infrastructure and you will deeply regret it. That's why I am trying to get out of it.

[Fast Eddie]

(04-02-2015 10:34 AM)DJ-Matt Wrote:  

Get your A+ cert and learn the computer tech trade if you want to go the easy route. There's always a need for them and the pay is halfway decent. Around here the minimum is $15/hour but that's the absolute starting wage. If you've been in it for at least 2 years that goes up to $17, and by 5 years it is easily $20. I have several techs that work for me and it's difficult to even keep them around here for $17 an hour.

Myself I started with A+, Network+, MCSA never completed all the way through to MCSE, but now having been in the field for over 10 years I'm up to over $50k a year. And that's living in a small town in the middle of nowhere, if I moved back to the big city I can pull at least $80k.

Dude, that's not exactly painting a rosy picture. Wasting 2 years of your life to go from $15/hr to 17/hr? A decade of experience to make 50k, which is less than a 22 year old entry level business major from bumfuk university makes? I'm not going out of my way to be a jackass, but damn, that is some powerful motivation to NOT go into hardware tech.

[iknowexactly]

(04-09-2013 11:42 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(04-09-2013 11:25 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

Also learning new computer languages gets harder and harder as you age, just like regular languages. Take Ruby on Rails for instance, if you're 45 and trying to learn it and don't already know a very similar scripting language, and you're competing with 25 year olds, it's going to be rough.

I don't agree. Once you learn one language, it is easier to learn another if you have a solid foundation. The hard part is learning object oriented programming and other architecture like mvvm, mvc, etc...

After that, it is easy since it will come down to syntax and frameworks. Age has nothing to do with it from my experience.

To some degree you're right, it is more learning a NEW GENERATION of languages, if you didn't learn object oriented, then you're trying to catch up with a whole new type of syntax. However age does have a lot to do with learning new verbal languages, partly due to memory is just not as fast and reliable after 40. Ask anyone over 40 you know well if their memory is as good as it was.

However, although people SAY languages are similar, when you see ads do you see "RUBY progreammer" wanted, or "WEB SCRIPTING developer, will train on RUBY..."
They even go as fast as saying "Ruby on rails" wanted.. so if you go in and say "I know Python" ....

No one wants to train anyone even if it takes a week.

There's also the cultural difference, when you are 45 and go for an interview with the 25 year old project manager, unless you know a bunch of stuff he doesn't in his area, the arrogance of youth will tend to make him feel superior.

I think you can definitely make money in programming, there just aren't enough people with High IQs who are diligent enough and want to do it.

When I saw I could make maybe half as much in mental health care and it was emotionally and spiritually more rewarding I ditched out on programming.

[americanInEurope]

(04-09-2013 08:21 AM)chyamor Wrote:  

Network for sure. CCNP atleast. Best thing is you can do a lot of side jobs since you can remote in and out anytime you want. Started my CCNA/CCNP last week just so I can do shit while at work and get paid double time

(04-09-2013 08:19 AM)Gallego2006 Wrote:  

Virtualization skills. If you have solid networking experience or certifications like CCNA and then went after a VCP cert from VMWare, you can pull $135K+ in the DC, NYC, or Silicon Valley areas.

And I just read the other day that 99% of things in the world still aren't connected to the Internet, so....

I've been in IT for 15 years. These first two posters hit the nail right on the head. Networking or Servers (VM) are the best IT related jobs with long term potential that just about anyone can get good at if they stick to it. The rest of the thread unfortunately veers off course with how good or bad software engineering is. The only advantage I see from software engineer, if you can even do it, is that you get to work remotely. Other than that, there are other options out there that pay just as good as are less demanding. There are just as many networking or VM jobs than there are software jobs. Again the only difference is you have to work in an office as opposed to a programmer who can work from anywhere.

I'm in networking and pull in 6 figures in salary or hourly work. Aside from being a CCNP (working on my CCIE now), the biggest salary boost is my experience. It's really hard to find high level network guys with enough experience to solve complex issues quickly. I see it all the time...junior network guys who have loads of certs but have clearly either brain dumped or have done certs before experience. They don't keep jobs long or get discouraged because they are hit with really difficult problems and have to go at it alone. Companies don't have huge networking or server shops anymore. They're moving to have 1 or 2 network architects in place and let the helpdesk or Tier 1 field engineers do the day-to-day switch stuff. Those architects have a lot on their plate and know a lot, but get paid big bucks. A company hires a networking guy with a CCNA or maybe CCNP thinking he has experience too, but they end up making a lot of mistakes. Junior guys could do good shadowing them and learning as much as you can so when they inevitable do get the certs they have skills to back it up.

High level Networking, Server and Security guys will always have jobs and make tons of money.

[Tytalus]

Thing with Data Science is that you have to be willing to move where head offices are located. The jobs aren't necessarily in all big cities, they're in big cities where the HQ is.

i.e.
Vancouver BC? No.

Seattle WA, a 3h drive away? Yes.

For Data Science, from what I can tell in the states, you're either in a NSA facility, state/fed government office, California, or New York. In Canada, a lot of work is available in Alberta because of hte oil sands. Anything fancy and you're talking Toronto, and then well, you have to live in Toronto. And yes, there are some Business Intelligence jobs scattered around every where else, where you make reports and dashboards for managers to understand the inputs and outputs of their business. But web analytics? That shit is special.

[Fast Eddie]

(04-01-2015 04:52 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  

Let's make a distinction for people of thinking of getting into programming:

From Not Difficult (average intelligence can learn with ease):
HTML / CSS
Basic javascript, jQuery
Basic SQL

Average Difficulty (average intelligence can learn with a fair amount of work):
High level languages - Python, C#, Java, PHP, Perl, Swift, Ruby
complex Javascript
complex SQL

Getting Difficult (average intelligence will struggle):
C++
Objective-C
very complex Javascript
very complex SQL

OK this is Difficult - (average intelligence probably will not be able to master even with tons of work - i.e. apply it to complex applications)
C language
Lisp
Clojure
Assembly language

You will see a direct correlation between these languages for jobs and barrier to entry as far as intelligence + skill is concerned.

Interesting. I'm still a bit of a neophyte when it comes to coding, but I'd have thought that the intelligence required to perform a programming task is far more related to the nature of the task than to the language that is used.

I'm sure that writing a compiler or contributing to a kernel in Python is a LOT harder than writing a web crawler in C. If someone is smart enough to write an OS in Python, he is certainly smart enough to do anything in C that is easier than writing an OS. Or am I way off base here?

[Onto]

@Fast Eddie. You and Travesty are both correct.

Then the next thing that matters is domain knowledge. For example, a company may want a C/C++ developer who has built trading systems "and" has in-depth knowledge in the trading of certain financial instruments such as derivatives.

[puckerman]

(04-02-2015 10:34 AM)DJ-Matt Wrote:  

Get your A+ cert and learn the computer tech trade if you want to go the easy route. There's always a need for them and the pay is halfway decent. Around here the minimum is $15/hour but that's the absolute starting wage. If you've been in it for at least 2 years that goes up to $17, and by 5 years it is easily $20. I have several techs that work for me and it's difficult to even keep them around here for $17 an hour.

Myself I started with A+, Network+, MCSA never completed all the way through to MCSE, but now having been in the field for over 10 years I'm up to over $50k a year. And that's living in a small town in the middle of nowhere, if I moved back to the big city I can pull at least $80k.

I got an A+ in 1998. It was worthless. I completed an MCSE in 2000. It was also worthless.