[presidentcarter]

I tried it tonight...pretty frustrating. Not sure what it is that creates this mental block. Day game I'm fine...night game after a few strong drinks and I'm fine. But sober night game is a whole new level.

I have to get it though...it's essential. More practice needed I guess...

[gandt]

I just finished a 100 day challenge of no drinking any forms of alcohol. The reason you cannot do it is because it is what you are accustomed to doing. To you:

going out = drink in hand

Might I suggest ordering sparkling waters at the bar so you can still get the feeling of having something in your hand but do not need to rely on alcohol per se.

If you want to do this you need to be 100% committed because other people will not support you in any way. Much like any positive change you are looking to make in yourself, the majority of people will not support you and think you are crazy for going against the status quo. When others see you trying to make a positive change it threatens their opinion of themselves. Just stupid and selfish behaviour.

If you end up going out sober you will feel awkward for the first few times. However, after 2-3 nights out you will overcome the need to have a beer, vodka soda, etc... in your hand at all times.

However, your conversations will be much smoother, you will be hydrated with water, have no hangover, gives you a good conversation piece with women.

The most interesting thing you will begin to see is that you vibe off of other people's drunkness. There is a term for this where people go to raves and pick up on the energy of those on drugs and then ride that wave. You will notice the same thing if you are at a high energy club. You will feel drunk and energetic at the end of the night.

In terms of getting over your obstacle I think you need to apply a "time restriction" to it. The mind works in a much more powerful way if you associate a specific date when you will have your next drink. For example:

It is more effective to mentally affirm "I can have my next drink in January 2017" compared to "I am quitting drinking". This can be applied in small time frames as well.

Hope this helps, let us know how it goes! This has inspired me to get back on the no drinking train. I'll join you.

P.S my one challenge was first dates where I usually go for a drink. It's hard to get around that one (unless you go for coffee)

[Spike]

@Gandt

I have seen you posting some solid advice so far. Keep it coming bro. Loose the avatar. What kind of creature is that anyway?

[gandt]

(03-21-2013 05:04 AM)Neil Skywalker Wrote:  

@Gandt

I have seen you posting some solid advice so far. Keep it coming bro. Loose the avatar. What kind of creature is that anyway?

Haha thanks man. Re: creature.. God knows. Likely some hipster creature who will be replaced as soon as I find a better image!

[XXL]

When you're sober...
- how do you start the night? do you post up and look around? do you go around checking the venue? do you socialize with random people?
- are you with friends or solo?

When you drink..
- do you feel that holding a glass gives you sort of confidence boost or comfort?
- do you feel like the option of buying a drink is a good plan b if pickup goes bad?

[Grayham]

Why do you not want to have a drink during nightgame?

I actually never understood why people are so obsessed over gaming without alcohol.
I get some of the reasoning, but I don't understand it. Please help educate me.

The major (and imo only) downside is that too much alcohol dulls the senses. This is the main reason some advocate you need to game sober. I agree that this is an unfavourable effect and it will hamper your structured and logical reasoning going through all the steps of your gameplan.

Apart from this downside, let's explore the effects of alcohol a bit further.

- It loosens you up. This helps eleviate approach anxiety and makes some people smoother. This is a crutch mostly for beginners.
- It lets you fit in with the crowd. At parties everyone else is drinking and having fun, you become one of the tribe.
- It allows you to have more fun by being unstructured and less like a robot. This is more for the advanced player who can control the interaction naturally and doesn't need a rigid gameplan to succeed.

The crutch arguement is mostly used to turn people away from alcohol. 'You shouldn't need to be smoother, etc, when using alcohol, that's beta and stupid, blabla.' This is actually a good arguement. You should be confident in your approach with or without alcohol and not need social lubricant. But as the OP already states, he has no trouble at all doing sober day game. So if your confidence is already at a high enough level to do daygame without any problem (and sober) then why would you be against having a drink during nightgame? (As daygame is way harder than nightgame in the general opinion)

By fitting in with the crowd you make it easier not to be seen as a stick in the mud who wants to be different. Typically in the party/club scene abstainers are seen as buzzkills and you'll have to explain yourself. Who wants to hang at a party with some sober guy that they see all day during work/school/whatever? Add one point to the boring side of the scorechart, regardless of your brilliantly framed reason, religion, or life philosophy.

Allowing your game to becomes less structured is probably the most scary! and shaky arguement, but also the most advanced. I found that after integrating most game material and behaviourisms that I don't need the structured gameplan anymore. I have my openers, savy, DHV's, qualifiers and IOI recognition so integrated that I can let loose a bit. And this actually helped my overall game.

Now, I'm not saying that you can't have fun without alcohol, but when you don't go overboard it helps you fit in better, you don't need an excuse or 'interesting' story why you don't drink it, and you are sure not to be a buzzkill.

The keyword here is moderation. If you drink one or two glasses of alcohol (depends on %) per hour then you won't feel any perception diminishing effects nor will you feel bad the day after.

Of course this could all be my personal bias. I was introduced to drinking alcohol at the tender age of 13 (and no not only at parties), have been taught how to handle the alcohol from that time, and am now rolling in the university scene where alcohol usage isn't even counted towards alcoholism rates because students skew the statistics too much (and stop without any problems after university). Also, I'm a large person who can handle more than 1-2 glasses without going blotto, as some people can't seem to do. Especially Asians, they gotta hate their ineffective ADH.

PS.
You don't smell the alcohol on the breath of other people when you had a drink yourself.

[gandt]

While some fair points are brought up, I see a few issues with the above logic:

Self-Limiting Beliefs

A lot of this post is riddled with self-limiting beliefs thereby fitting "not drinking" into a cookie cutter perception of that individual. If you feel you are going to be the "boring" sober guy they have hung around with at the office all day, then you most certainly will be.

Based on what you have written is seems that your thesis is that you can still have fun while not drinking but not AS MUCH fun as when you drink, which I don't think is necessarily true. It is dependent on a variety of factors (read on...)

Fitting In

I have an issue on advising people that it is beneficial for them to drink to become part of the crowd. My main problem is the fact that you suggest to do this for the approval of OTHER people. And since when is fitting in ever a good thing? In game, life, career? Sounds boring to me.

I drink with the best of them sometimes, but when I do so it is never to conform or blend in. So whether you drink or don't drink, don't do so for anyone else's approval other than your OWN.

Everyone is Different

The problem with a topic like this is that it needs to be examined on a case by case basis. Alcohol has many affects on different people:

* Some get aggressive or confrontational
* Some get depressed or more quiet
* Some don't have much excess income to spend
* Some have different personality traits

I am personally highly extroverted so if I would never be viewed as the sober guy from the office even if I, in fact, did go out sober. Consuming booze actually makes me get more "in my head" I find.

Girls are more sober than guys

This is my personal opinion based on going out to clubs and bars every thursday through sunday for the past 5 years. Girls seem to take care of themselves better in terms of not getting as drunk as guys.

Don't get my wrong, I see wasted girls all the time but I see more sloppy guys than I do girls (perhaps it depends where you are from).

I can't tell you how many times girls view me as a breath of fresh air that they get to talk to a coherent and sober guy at the bar or club.

This leads me to my next point...

Objectives

Is your objective to go out to find that drunken mess of a girl or are you looking to find someone you actually like as a person, are able to have fun with, etc... Depending on your objectives your drinking habits will follow.

(03-21-2013 06:19 AM)Grayham Wrote:  

So if your confidence is already at a high enough level to do daygame without any problem (and sober) then why would you be against having a drink during nightgame? (As daygame is way harder than nightgame in the general opinion)

Since when is it general opinion that day game is harder? I would say the opposite. Night game consists of:

* High competition
* High bitch shields
* Dark clubs
* Loud music

I think they are two totally different environments and you can't compare apples to oranges on this one.

My two cents.

[WestCoast]

(03-21-2013 06:59 AM)gandt Wrote:  

While some fair points are brought up, I see a few issues with the above logic:

Self-Limiting Beliefs

A lot of this post is riddled with self-limiting beliefs thereby fitting "not drinking" into a cookie cutter perception of that individual. If you feel you are going to be the "boring" sober guy they have hung around with at the office all day, then you most certainly will be.

Based on what you have written is seems that your thesis is that you can still have fun while not drinking but not AS MUCH fun as when you drink, which I don't think is necessarily true. It is dependent on a variety of factors (read on...)

Fitting In

I have an issue on advising people that it is beneficial for them to drink to become part of the crowd. My main problem is the fact that you suggest to do this for the approval of OTHER people. And since when is fitting in ever a good thing? In game, life, career? Sounds boring to me.

I drink with the best of them sometimes, but when I do so it is never to conform or blend in. So whether you drink or don't drink, don't do so for anyone else's approval other than your OWN.

Everyone is Different

The problem with a topic like this is that it needs to be examined on a case by case basis. Alcohol has many affects on different people:

* Some get aggressive or confrontational
* Some get depressed or more quiet
* Some don't have much excess income to spend
* Some have different personality traits

I am personally highly extroverted so if I would never be viewed as the sober guy from the office even if I, in fact, did go out sober. Consuming booze actually makes me get more "in my head" I find.

Girls are more sober than guys

This is my personal opinion based on going out to clubs and bars every thursday through sunday for the past 5 years. Girls seem to take care of themselves better in terms of not getting as drunk as guys.

Don't get my wrong, I see wasted girls all the time but I see more sloppy guys than I do girls (perhaps it depends where you are from).

I can't tell you how many times girls view me as a breath of fresh air that they get to talk to a coherent and sober guy at the bar or club.

This leads me to my next point...

Objectives

Is your objective to go out to find that drunken mess of a girl or are you looking to find someone you actually like as a person, are able to have fun with, etc... Depending on your objectives your drinking habits will follow.

(03-21-2013 06:19 AM)Grayham Wrote:  

So if your confidence is already at a high enough level to do daygame without any problem (and sober) then why would you be against having a drink during nightgame? (As daygame is way harder than nightgame in the general opinion)

Since when is it general opinion that day game is harder? I would say the opposite. Night game consists of:

* High competition
* High bitch shields
* Dark clubs
* Loud music

I think they are two totally different environments and you can't compare apples to oranges on this one.

My two cents.

Been saying this lately on the game forum and lifestyle forum.

What belief do you have that isn't true

That is what is crippling your growth.

[el mechanico]

Because it sucks! You won't catch me in a bar sober ever listening to stupid women and people babble.

Nightgame at Wal-mart or some fast food joints then sober is ok and wont bother you.

[Aliblahba]

Night gaming sober is like dressing up as a hipster to see Kiss live. It's just the way it is. Stay thirsty my friends.

[WestCoast]

Night game sober blows.

Thing is when he can do it sober, drinking wi increase his game to a highe level.

Doubt you guys "worry" about being able to pull sober, he has to tackle that belief head on, then go back to shots of ciroc to the face!

[Spider]

@ gandt - I agree with pretty much everything you've said. I don't think Night game sucks sober, it only sucks if you decide being sober = a miserable time

I've been going out sober for maybe 3 or 4 months now, and although it is a very different experience, like anything else, with time you will adjust and get used to it.

I also find that when everyone is drinking around you, you become a little looser yourself, although definitely not as carefree or 'loose' as if you were drunk.

The other pro's I've found are you approach and get with better looking girls (no 'beer goggle's'/drunk mistakes) and no problems with whisky dick.

[presidentcarter]

It felt good for a while, but my barrier to approach was way higher.

When I finally did start approaching I was getting nowhere. I was at a small lounge/bar with a pretty international crowd...opened some Serbian and Ukrainian girls with huge bitch shields that I couldn't work through.

So the lack of a strong buzz resulted in a few things for me...higher approach anxiety and less ability to say random witty shit and plow through bitch shields.

I could see this becoming less of an issue over time and eventually being outweighed by the positives. Another huge positive for being sober in this city is the ability to be mobile. If one place isn't materializing I can drive elsewhere without worrying. I could also extract back to my place or another venue without relying on a taxi.

Side note: some fucking chump was buying these Ukrainian girls drinks and flowers all night. The girls were already with guys. His consolation prize was a picture with one of the girls and a few hugs. As bad as I felt my night was...I still know what side of the field I'm on.

[iknowexactly]

Don't think of an elephant.

Some people are alcoholics and can't drink at all without majorly f'ing up their own and others' lives.

[Grayham]

(03-21-2013 06:59 AM)gandt Wrote:  

While some fair points are brought up, I see a few issues with the above logic:

Self-Limiting Beliefs

A lot of this post is riddled with self-limiting beliefs thereby fitting "not drinking" into a cookie cutter perception of that individual. If you feel you are going to be the "boring" sober guy they have hung around with at the office all day, then you most certainly will be.

Based on what you have written is seems that your thesis is that you can still have fun while not drinking but not AS MUCH fun as when you drink, which I don't think is necessarily true. It is dependent on a variety of factors (read on...)

Fitting In

I have an issue on advising people that it is beneficial for them to drink to become part of the crowd. My main problem is the fact that you suggest to do this for the approval of OTHER people. And since when is fitting in ever a good thing? In game, life, career? Sounds boring to me.

I drink with the best of them sometimes, but when I do so it is never to conform or blend in. So whether you drink or don't drink, don't do so for anyone else's approval other than your OWN.

Everyone is Different

The problem with a topic like this is that it needs to be examined on a case by case basis. Alcohol has many affects on different people:

* Some get aggressive or confrontational
* Some get depressed or more quiet
* Some don't have much excess income to spend
* Some have different personality traits

I am personally highly extroverted so if I would never be viewed as the sober guy from the office even if I, in fact, did go out sober. Consuming booze actually makes me get more "in my head" I find.

Girls are more sober than guys

This is my personal opinion based on going out to clubs and bars every thursday through sunday for the past 5 years. Girls seem to take care of themselves better in terms of not getting as drunk as guys.

Don't get my wrong, I see wasted girls all the time but I see more sloppy guys than I do girls (perhaps it depends where you are from).

I can't tell you how many times girls view me as a breath of fresh air that they get to talk to a coherent and sober guy at the bar or club.

This leads me to my next point...

Objectives

Is your objective to go out to find that drunken mess of a girl or are you looking to find someone you actually like as a person, are able to have fun with, etc... Depending on your objectives your drinking habits will follow.

(03-21-2013 06:19 AM)Grayham Wrote:  

So if your confidence is already at a high enough level to do daygame without any problem (and sober) then why would you be against having a drink during nightgame? (As daygame is way harder than nightgame in the general opinion)

Since when is it general opinion that day game is harder? I would say the opposite. Night game consists of:

* High competition
* High bitch shields
* Dark clubs
* Loud music

I think they are two totally different environments and you can't compare apples to oranges on this one.

My two cents.

Gandt you make some fair points indeed, however I believe you are taking this concept of self-limiting beliefs out of context or too far.

If we would make a silly reductio ad absurdum: Why are you even talking the same language as anyone else? It's a self-limiting belief to think you need to be able to verbally communicate!

Of course it makes it so much easier to be able to communicate verbally than to only use gestures and grunts. (Which is well possible as most of our communication is non-verbal anyways).

In relation to the use of alcohol, the better fit, or fitting in, I'm referring to just lowers the barrier of entry to the scene. Imagine yourself going to a business conference without wearing a suit. Fair chance you won't even be let in, let alone be accepted without scorn. We are social/tribal creatures and a certain degree of fitting in is necessary or makes the situation easier.

Crushing the 'self-limiting belief' about not adapting to other people becomes a self-limiting belief on its own. Be a social chameleon, adapt to your environment to maximise profit.

This is of course linked to what kind of women you hope to attract. But you can pick your venues for that.

[Nascimento]

I made it a habit. It was hard, VERY hard to do.

I have been going out for 6 months sober, and most recently I have been going out consistently, at least 2 nights a week.

It takes high energy that is genuine without it looking like you are drugged up.

I enjoy the music, I dance and have fun with my buddies. That's all it takes. From there, you work up and slowly kill that approach anxiety. I still get it sometimes, but it's mostly inexistent past the first half of the night.

I guess I can narrow it down to pros and cons.

Pros
-Cheaper
-You can drive
-You pick up on subtle things.. such as a girl touching her chest against your arm, her hand against your lower back, the way she flicks her hair or looks down to show she might be nervous
-You attribute success to yourself only. And you master your state
-You remember everything

Cons
-Alcohol helps you start the night on a high
-More witty? I used to be better when I was buzzed but now I am the same sober because I have done it for so long
-Miss out on certain tests/ice breakers. Such as telling her to try your drink, or going up to a random girl and approaching her by sticking out your cup and taking a drink together

There are probably more, this is what I can think of right now. My friends generally go out sober too so that makes it easier. Nowadays I only drink if I am hanging out with buddies and staying in for the night to play pool/video games or if I go to a birthday/house party.

Oh, the best pro is that sober builds better momentum. The start of the night may be slow, but as it goes on and you start approaching and vibing with girls, your state goes through the roof. By the later part of the night you are at the top of your game. Most of my makeouts and a pull in the past happen/happened in the later parts of the night. With alcohol, I find it is the other way around. You start on a high, but you are always declining. Keeping the buzz can slow that decline but it is inevitable. All from my experience of course.

[gandt]

(03-21-2013 10:57 AM)Nascimento Wrote:  

I made it a habit. It was hard, VERY hard to do.

I have been going out for 6 months sober, and most recently I have been going out consistently, at least 2 nights a week.

It takes high energy that is genuine without it looking like you are drugged up.

I enjoy the music, I dance and have fun with my buddies. That's all it takes. From there, you work up and slowly kill that approach anxiety. I still get it sometimes, but it's mostly inexistent past the first half of the night.

I guess I can narrow it down to pros and cons.

Pros
-Cheaper
-You can drive
-You pick up on subtle things.. such as a girl touching her chest against your arm, her hand against your lower back, the way she flicks her hair or looks down to show she might be nervous
-You attribute success to yourself only. And you master your state
-You remember everything

Cons
-Alcohol helps you start the night on a high
-More witty? I used to be better when I was buzzed but now I am the same sober because I have done it for so long
-Miss out on certain tests/ice breakers. Such as telling her to try your drink, or going up to a random girl and approaching her by sticking out your cup and taking a drink together

There are probably more, this is what I can think of right now. My friends generally go out sober too so that makes it easier. Nowadays I only drink if I am hanging out with buddies and staying in for the night to play pool/video games or if I go to a birthday/house party.

Oh, the best pro is that sober builds better momentum. The start of the night may be slow, but as it goes on and you start approaching and vibing with girls, your state goes through the roof. By the later part of the night you are at the top of your game. Most of my makeouts and a pull in the past happen/happened in the later parts of the night. With alcohol, I find it is the other way around. You start on a high, but you are always declining. Keeping the buzz can slow that decline but it is inevitable. All from my experience of course.

Couldn't agree more with you inverse relation of momentum with being sober.

Spot on

[XXL]

It's all good as long as you keep on socializing and allow yourself to start slow before getting into real action later. Every interaction, even very short one, makes you loosen up, get more talkative, be more spontaneous and in general it adds up to your momentum of the night. After 5-10 interactions you're usually ON. Basically if you hit it up you don't need any other stimulants.

It's when you're passive and stall then yes it starts to feel awkward to stand there with nothing in hand.

PS. oh yeah WesternCancern obviously on point here, bring some FUN, use imagination, game yourself like.. "hey i want to meet my second wife here tonight, you're tall, I choose you" haha

[WesternCancer]

I think its because you don't think logically when you drink. When you're sober (thinking logically) and go to a bar everyone is in full retard mode and you can't communicate as well with them so you get frustrated.

[Spike]

I think that guys should do what works best for them. If you're the type of guy who can game his ass of when dead drunk, be my guest. if you like to be in total control of all your senses by not drinking a drop and this works best for you then good for you.

Personally, I enjoy the taste of beer (and it's cheap compared to shots and cocktails) and game best when I'm downing a few cold ones. It loosens up my tongue and I have less approach anxiety which still majorly blocks me from time to time but is more dependent on my overall mood anyway.

[presidentcarter]

I'll slam two vodkas (as in a full glass of Ketel, on the rocks) first and foremost when I go out. After that I'll usually approach anything moving. Problem is I'd like to be able to do this sober because I think I'd get better results since I could think strategically. I'd also learn more from my mistakes.

Who knows I'm sure I'll keep trying but not every time I go out.

[WestCoast]

(03-21-2013 03:06 PM)presidentcarter Wrote:  

I'll slam two vodkas (as in a full glass of Ketel, on the rocks) first and foremost when I go out. After that I'll usually approach anything moving. Problem is I'd like to be able to do this sober because I think I'd get better results since I could think strategically. I'd also learn more from my mistakes.

Who knows I'm sure I'll keep trying but not every time I go out.

Your post title is why you "can't" game sober.

Try this.

"Why do I want to game sober?"

"I want to game sober because I want to improve myself"

"The only way I improve myself is by accomplishing something I "believed" wasn't possible"

Has it been done before? Yes.

Repetition, repetition, repetition. Repeat after me.

"I will night game sober and pull because deep down I want to improve myself"

Reframe in your mind the task as a fun positive event.

What you want to accomplish has been done a billion times in history, eventually it will get easy. You know the truth is it will happen so get it done.

[ElBorrachoInfamoso]

Maybe you're too naturally inhibited.

I knew a guy who was a typical chump sober but somehow had phenomenal game when drunk

[babelfish669]

To answer the OP -- find someone to go out with who doesn't drink at all. Much easier to have that initial momentum.

For the rest of the thread -- drinking definitely is a cock block for a lot of guys. Not all, but a lot more than realize it. Girls, sober and not, will try to take advantage of stunningly attractive males who are heavily intoxicated, for the rest, not so much.

[WestCoast]

(03-21-2013 03:43 PM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  

Maybe you're too naturally inhibited.

I knew a guy who was a typical chump sober but somehow had phenomenal game when drunk

You are basically telling him to quit.

This is a terrible long-term plan, "it's harder so I should give up and never know later in life".

Anyone in the entire world can do what he wants to do at least once. Once he knows he can do it he will have a higher level of unwavering confidence.

Then he can feel free to go back, if he wants to do it there should be zero rationalization of why something extremely easy cannot be attained.