[Vicious]

I just got a call while at work from an executive recruitment firm looking at me by recommendation for a position at McKinsey Operations.

As always with McKinsey we are looking at 4 case days/week (ie travel) which roughly translate to 60-80h work weeks everything accounted for. Their wages pre-partner look great on paper but knocked out by the hour they are merely good. It’s about shoveling shit for 4-5 years until you make partner where you actually can start making money. Until then you are treated like a disposable asset with little regard to how you're holding up and if you might be on a meth IV drip to get stuff done on time.

So for all you guys here that are consultants, work in finance or law that has similar workloads... Would you do it? The thing is that I'm in my mid-thirties. I have already mentally started to ramp down with my sights on enjoying life and cashing out after having spent most of my life busting ass at work or in school. The status and money having made partner is certainly appealing but as a red piller I don't hold that in the same regard if there is no opportunity to convert this into poon. I would have left a trail of corpses behind me to get this job 5 years ago. Now I'm not sure...

[j r]

I'm in my mid-thirties and have similar concerns, but I would probably jump at McKinsey. It's like going to Harvard. You have name on your resume that everybody knows and respects and you have access to a top notch network of current and former employees.

[OSL]

Couldn't you try it out for a year and leave if it was that awful?

In principle I agree with j r

[thegmanifesto]

You are only giving us one part of the equation.

What is the alternative?

[j r]

G is right.

Also, where do you want to be at 45? Do you want to be sitting on a each somewhere, living off of investments and passive income, or do you want to be a player in your field?

[Vicious]

(03-20-2013 10:43 AM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

You are only giving us one part of the equation.

What is the alternative?

Making 80k in a real cushy job (40h/week) currently which would likely be at 100k at 40. 6 weeks of paid vacation. I have some additional sources of income but nothing that really adds a significant percentage.

Both of the scenarios J r pose appeal to me, might add that I desire an heir at some point.

YMG gave a possibility that is amazingly simple yet might be the best option.

[WestCoast]

(03-20-2013 11:14 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

(03-20-2013 10:43 AM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

You are only giving us one part of the equation.

What is the alternative?

Making 80k in a real cushy job (40h/week) currently which would likely be at 100k at 40. 6 weeks of paid vacation. I have some additional sources of income but nothing that really adds a significant percentage.

Both of the scenarios J r pose appeal to me, might add that I desire an heir at some point.

YMG gave a possibility that is amazingly simple yet might be the best option.

Get the offer first. Now you are in demand, shop that offer at your current firm and say you want to get promoted. If they like you you get a better paying job already where you are established and you also earn more trust with your firm because they now like you and TRUST you more.

Dumbasses in high finance think going to GS or MS or McKinsey or Bain is always the right move. Bad move. Work game.

You manipulate the office

That strategy I laid out is if you are the best worker in the office.

Example: during bonus season in finance or consulting do you "act safe and proper". No. You walk around dressed to the 9's like you're interviewing. You show careless mistakes the last month. As if you're "quitting on them". Now they are so concerned you're going to quit, whoops you got paid the most.

If you are the best worker in the office no high finance/consulting firm will ever let you leave. That's how you get promoted earlier and faster.

End of the day though, it's honestly up to you but why go through a scenario analysis with no papers in hand. Recruiters are cunts btw, if you are getting head hunted for McKinsey you are vastly over paid. Recruiters only care about their fees.

[thegmanifesto]

(03-20-2013 11:14 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

(03-20-2013 10:43 AM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

You are only giving us one part of the equation.

What is the alternative?

Making 80k in a real cushy job (40h/week) currently which would likely be at 100k at 40. 6 weeks of paid vacation. I have some additional sources of income but nothing that really adds a significant percentage.

Both of the scenarios J r pose appeal to me, might add that I desire an heir at some point.

YMG gave a possibility that is amazingly simple yet might be the best option.

What does this new gig pay for 80h per week?

What will the new gig pay at age 40?

We need a Mangoes to Mangoes comparison.

[presidentcarter]

Only you know what point you are at in your life. If you can handle it for a few years, do it. For me, the 80+ hrs/week, bust my ass, slave to the work stage could have only been right out of college when I was young, naive, and very motivated for any kind of "work".

At this point, I wouldn't do it personally. At least not for anyone except myself...I'm just not at that stage anymore, for better or worse. I value other things over money and resume at this point, even though it may be to my detriment on some levels.

[Bad Hussar]

I wouldn't be able to work 80 hours a week for someone else. My own company absolutely, but not for someone else

Having said that if you can see yourself working at McKinsey for a very long time, and will be satisfied with the kind of life it will lead to then it may be worth the effort to make partner.

[OSL]

(03-20-2013 11:14 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

(03-20-2013 10:43 AM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

You are only giving us one part of the equation.

What is the alternative?

Making 80k in a real cushy job (40h/week) currently which would likely be at 100k at 40. 6 weeks of paid vacation. I have some additional sources of income but nothing that really adds a significant percentage.

Both of the scenarios J r pose appeal to me, might add that I desire an heir at some point.

YMG gave a possibility that is amazingly simple yet might be the best option.

Some followup questions:

1 -Which global office are we talking about here?

If your'e uncomfortable specifying which city then maybe just the country or the region?

Check out glassdoor.com for reviews on your specific position in your specific branch office that you are being recruited for. It'll give you an insider view of what it is like to work there.

2 -Will you have the opportunity to transfer offices globally?


So let's say that you start in Stockholm or London (I see that you have a Swedish flag there), can you transfer to the Russian office, Rio office, Singapore office, Shanghai office, etc? If you are being headhunted at what seems like a fairly senior position, then I feel like they might be more accommodating of international moves.

As such, maybe you can do year 1 and 2 in the European office (or whereever you are being recruited) and build up a network and get a different experience and challenge.

While this is happening, perhaps you can start exploring McKinsey offices abroad in far flung destinations that you've been interested in from an investment and business point of view. Maybe this is Brazil, Africa, SE Asia etc.

Due to being in a managerial position in a juggernaut firm like McKinsey, you will immediately get access to elites from both the corporate world and the government. You can "stand on the shoudlers of giants", as it were, and utilize the McKinsey network to your advantage - while on their dollar.

I worked for one of the brand name engineering consultancies and my boss/mentor did a similar thing at around your age - he bounced from London to Jakarta to Singapore to Shanghai and back to Singapore. He built up a giant network because of this and was able to eventually go off on his own as a result.

McKinsey is already a giant brand name in places like New York or Europe - but when you are talking about Latin America, Africa, Indonesia, etc - then you are talking about meeting high level people that will turn into life-long business contacts that you will have first-hand experience working with and socializing with. It's like having a Harvard degree, as someone mentioned here earlier.

http://www.mckinsey.com/alumni

You will have access to the McKinsey alumni network. If you wanted to pop into Zambia or Kenya and needed market intelligence you would have some sort of highly networked and business savvy circle that you could break into.

--------

To play devil's advocate to everything I just said, here is a Management Consulted series of articles about why a guy left McKinsey and why he was happy he went in the first place:

http://managementconsulted.com/consultin...ey-part-1/

http://managementconsulted.com/consultin...y-part-2/#


--------

Question 3:

Would you rather say to yourself in ten years....

"What if I had gone to McKinsey for 2 years?"

...or...

"Man that 2 years at McKinsey really sucked, I hated every minute of it, but at least when I travel I can meet interesting McKinsey alums in pretty much every major city I go to.

--

CAVEAT - I HAVE NOT WORKED IN MANAGEMENT CONSULTING AND I AM NOT 35 SO EVERYTHING I WRITE HERE IS JUST SPECULATION AND TOSSING IDEAS AROUND - TAKE IT WITH A GRAIN OF SALT


-

[MikeCF]

(03-20-2013 11:30 AM)WestCoast Wrote:  

Get the offer first. Now you are in demand, shop that offer at your current firm and say you want to get promoted. If they like you you get a better paying job already where you are established and you also earn more trust with your firm because they now like you and TRUST you more.

Best advice yet.

Use the slave labor job to get a raise at the lifestyle job.

Hard, long hours are overrated. At my age there'd no way I'd do 80 hour weeks ever again (and it's not like I don't have offers) - unless it were to build equity in my own company.

[MikeCF]

(03-20-2013 11:47 AM)presidentcarter Wrote:  

Only you know what point you are at in your life. If you can handle it for a few years, do it. For me, the 80+ hrs/week, bust my ass, slave to the work stage could have only been right out of college when I was young, naive, and very motivated for any kind of "work".

At this point, I wouldn't do it personally. At least not for anyone except myself...I'm just not at that stage anymore, for better or worse. I value other things over money and resume at this point, even though it may be to my detriment on some levels.

Right.

Why work hard for someone else?

If Vicious or anyone here spent as much time slaving away for themselves as they'd slave away at a job, they would eventually start a really successful business. Then every hour of work would be equity in your own business.

[MidniteSpecial]

I don't even know what McKinsey is. Don't know if that helps your decision.

[OSL]

(03-20-2013 02:18 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(03-20-2013 11:47 AM)presidentcarter Wrote:  

Only you know what point you are at in your life. If you can handle it for a few years, do it. For me, the 80+ hrs/week, bust my ass, slave to the work stage could have only been right out of college when I was young, naive, and very motivated for any kind of "work".

At this point, I wouldn't do it personally. At least not for anyone except myself...I'm just not at that stage anymore, for better or worse. I value other things over money and resume at this point, even though it may be to my detriment on some levels.

Right.

Why work hard for someone else?

If Vicious or anyone here spent as much time slaving away for themselves as they'd slave away at a job, they would eventually start a really successful business. Then every hour of work would be equity in your own business.

Yes, this too for sure.

--

[presidentcarter]

To play devil's advocate here: the top tier professional jobs (banking, doctor, lawyer, consulting) can offer pretty rich rewards for essentially zero risk - the only price being blood, sweat, tears, and opportunity cost. Oh and maybe some vitamin D and overall happiness, depending on who you are.

With a personal business, you're taking a risk. With hard work at one of these gigs, you can build a war chest. At the end though, you walk away with nothing but cash and a better resume to get another one.

[WestCoast]

(03-20-2013 02:30 PM)presidentcarter Wrote:  

To play devil's advocate here: the top tier professional jobs (banking, doctor, lawyer, consulting) can offer pretty rich rewards for essentially zero risk - the only price being blood, sweat, tears, and opportunity cost. Oh and maybe some vitamin D and overall happiness, depending on who you are.

With a personal business, you're taking a risk. With hard work at one of these gigs, you can build a war chest. At the end though, you walk away with nothing but cash and a better resume to get another one.

Why are you still working 80 hours a week in IB? You should be showing up drunk with the highest level managing director from a strip club. While he cheats on his wife, you think you got job security now?

Real Work game.

[presidentcarter]

(03-20-2013 02:47 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  

(03-20-2013 02:30 PM)presidentcarter Wrote:  

To play devil's advocate here: the top tier professional jobs (banking, doctor, lawyer, consulting) can offer pretty rich rewards for essentially zero risk - the only price being blood, sweat, tears, and opportunity cost. Oh and maybe some vitamin D and overall happiness, depending on who you are.

With a personal business, you're taking a risk. With hard work at one of these gigs, you can build a war chest. At the end though, you walk away with nothing but cash and a better resume to get another one.

Why are you still working 80 hours a week in IB? You should be showing up drunk with the highest level managing director from a strip club. While he cheats on his wife, you think you got job security now?

Real Work game.

Lol good point. And I've never worked 80 hours a week in my life. Just saying most of the top tier linear path professional careers are like that starting out.

[j r]

(03-20-2013 02:30 PM)presidentcarter Wrote:  

To play devil's advocate here: the top tier professional jobs (banking, doctor, lawyer, consulting) can offer pretty rich rewards for essentially zero risk - the only price being blood, sweat, tears, and opportunity cost. Oh and maybe some vitamin D and overall happiness, depending on who you are.

With a personal business, you're taking a risk. With hard work at one of these gigs, you can build a war chest. At the end though, you walk away with nothing but cash and a better resume to get another one.

This is important. Some people are working hard, so they'll never have to work again. And some people are working hard, so they can make it to Managing Director/Partner/C-level executive. There's arguments in favor of either direction, but every man has to figure out for himself what they're after.

[MikeCF]

(03-20-2013 02:52 PM)presidentcarter Wrote:  

Lol good point. And I've never worked 80 hours a week in my life. Just saying most of the top tier linear path professional careers are like that starting out.

You never worked 80 hours but you wrote:

Quote:

To play devil's advocate here: the top tier professional jobs (banking, doctor, lawyer, consulting) can offer pretty rich rewards for essentially zero risk - the only price being blood, sweat, tears, and opportunity cost. Oh and maybe some vitamin D and overall happiness, depending on who you are.

With a personal business, you're taking a risk. With hard work at one of these gigs, you can build a war chest. At the end though, you walk away with nothing but cash and a better resume to get another one.

Based on what knowledge?

[presidentcarter]

(03-20-2013 02:55 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(03-20-2013 02:52 PM)presidentcarter Wrote:  

Lol good point. And I've never worked 80 hours a week in my life. Just saying most of the top tier linear path professional careers are like that starting out.

You never worked 80 hours but you wrote:

Quote:

To play devil's advocate here: the top tier professional jobs (banking, doctor, lawyer, consulting) can offer pretty rich rewards for essentially zero risk - the only price being blood, sweat, tears, and opportunity cost. Oh and maybe some vitamin D and overall happiness, depending on who you are.

With a personal business, you're taking a risk. With hard work at one of these gigs, you can build a war chest. At the end though, you walk away with nothing but cash and a better resume to get another one.

Based on what knowledge?

General knowledge. For what it's worth, I work for an IB right now so I know a lot of people doing the 80 hours, but everyone knows these things. Slave away at a "job" = low risk, steady reward via paychecks, nothing to walk away with. Entrepreneurship = slave away, high risk, walk away with more.

...what are you refuting??

[WestCoast]

He is saying you are always being underpaid get it?

Vicious you are being massively underpaid if a greedy headhunter is trying to get you a job bro. That's the point.

Would you hire a worker who loses you money?! No.

[MikeCF]

(03-20-2013 02:59 PM)presidentcarter Wrote:  

General knowledge. For what it's worth, I work for an IB right now so I know a lot of people doing the 80 hours, but everyone knows these things. Slave away at a "job" = low risk, steady reward via paychecks, nothing to walk away with. Entrepreneurship = slave away, high risk, walk away with more.

...what are you refuting??

"Everyone knows," i.e., you are just repeating conventional wisdom.

Working long hours in your mid to late 30s has serious health effects. Why do you think most guys drink alcohol? It's self-medicating.

So it's not just, "Show up, work hard, and it's all good."

Turn 35 and work an 80 hour week. Big difference from working like that when you're 25.

Also, as far as low risk goes...Were you in high school during the massive blood letting that occurred when the market collapses in 08-09.

Lots of guys lost "safe" jobs.

Working for a company means someone else has found a way to make a rich profit off of your labor.

Why not figure out how to keep the profit from you own labor, in a way that builds equity in a company?

<---- Maybe that belongs in the "21 ways rich people view the world differently."

[presidentcarter]

(03-20-2013 03:27 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  

He is saying you are always being underpaid get it?

Vicious you are being massively underpaid if a greedy headhunter is trying to get you a job bro. That's the point.

Would you hire a worker who loses you money?! No.

Underpaid relative to what? The potential income resulting from a personal business? Personal businesses bring incomes all across the spectrum.

I'm saying that this track can give him stable, predictable, and healthy cash flow without risk, if he's willing to put in the work. For me, I aspire more to a personal business or venture, despite the risk. Hence the reason I said I was playing the devil's advocate when making that point.

(03-20-2013 03:36 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

Working long hours in your mid to late 30s has serious health effects. Why do you think most guys drink alcohol? It's self-medicating.

So it's not just, "Show up, work hard, and it's all good."

Turn 35 and work an 80 hour week. Big difference from working like that when you're 25.

Also, as far as low risk goes...Were you in high school during the massive blood letting that occurred when the market collapses in 08-09.

Lots of guys lost "safe" jobs.

Working for a company means someone else has found a way to make a rich profit off of your labor.

Why not figure out how to keep the profit from you own labor, in a way that builds equity in a company?

<---- Maybe that belongs in the "21 ways rich people view the world differently."

I fully agree, again like I said...that's what I said playing the devil's advocate here AFTER I'd already said that I wouldn't do it and would prefer to work on my own project.

In 2008, I had just completed my double major so I was looking for a job and seeing the meltdown in employment...so I know the toll it took on those that were losing jobs. Interviews/hiring was frozen and ultimately ceased at many of the firms I was corresponding with during that period. I found one in a finance subsector that lags the overall economy by about two years that was still hiring.

Here's my first post on this thread in case you guys missed it:

(03-20-2013 11:47 AM)presidentcarter Wrote:  

Only you know what point you are at in your life. If you can handle it for a few years, do it. For me, the 80+ hrs/week, bust my ass, slave to the work stage could have only been right out of college when I was young, naive, and very motivated for any kind of "work".

At this point, I wouldn't do it personally. At least not for anyone except myself...I'm just not at that stage anymore, for better or worse. I value other things over money and resume at this point, even though it may be to my detriment on some levels.

[WestCoast]

I am not saying your wrong.

My comment about showin up drunk was not a joke.