[scorpion]

bodmon: A masculine and confident frame is way more important than looks.

But guess what? If you keep letting yourself get hung up on your looks, it's almost impossible to come across as masculine and confident.

Because obsessing about looks is what women do.

Sitting around and complaining about how your looks are sabotaging you is very telling. It's not your looks that are sabotaging you, it's the fact that you have developed a complex about it.

You need to stop looking at yourself as a victim of fate who wasn't blessed with good looks and start looking at yourself as a guy who doesn't give a fuck what fate gave him and is going to take what he wants regardless.

That is the mental frame you need. Will you have to work harder than a male model? Yeah. Will you need a stronger frame? Yeah. But these are not insurmountable obstacles. You aren't blind and deaf. You aren't crippled or missing limbs. You aren't living in crushing poverty in an African village or an Indian slum. You're just not tall and great looking. Guess what, neither are most guys. And guess what else? Most tall and good looking guys are pussies with weak game. Don't get so caught up on appearances.

Your looks aren't your problem. Your inner game needs work.

[Norset]

Meta level:

Modern Western society ensures a cradle-to-grave security that has been unmatched in history. Women no longer need men to not end up in the gutter. That's why game works on a practical level (it always worked, but women couldn't act on it). Looks indicate physical genetic fitness (good looking and taller men have stronger immune systems than others), game mental genetic fitness. When you take survival out of the equation, we end up in a very harsh survival of the fittest environment (which ironically don't produce the resulting genetically superior offspring). Trying to assess how much each is worth is mental masturbation.

So in the West, to maximize access:

Above average: Cold approach, night life, huge loose network of acquaintances
Average: Social circle + micro-micro fame + some approaches
Below average: Larger fame or money

[soup]

(01-30-2013 01:08 AM)scorpion Wrote:  

Because obsessing about looks is what women do.

You can only make a well informed decision if you can comprehend where you stand and what your real options are.

We have to recognize the reality of the game in as high a resolution as possible. Trying to break down the specifics of how looks and game are related is not obsessing over looks, it's getting a more realistic perspective of what is possible.

I'd rather spend some time getting a better grasp on these forces than blindly swallowing a one-size-fits-all, hamster pellet pie-in-the-sky credo that says looks don't really matter if there is a strong possibility that looks do matter a lot in the current environment.

The point here is that looks aren't the be-all-end-all deciding factor, but I want to know what is the most efficient way for me to be using my energy.

If I was an ugly guy, and it turns out that I'm right about ugly guys essentially needing fame to access the higher level girls, than I'd want to know that info so I wouldn't waste my time using strategies that work only for better looking guys (or obsolete tools that worked for ugly guys in the past).

This may seem like an impossible request, but I'd love to see an example of an ugly guy who isn't rich or famous with an 8-9 hanging off of his arm (it's ok if they got famous for this).

[w00t]

I do believe that your looks pretty much determine the hotness of the girls you end up with.
I have yet to see a chubby, short guy who pulls model chicks consistently. Mostly regular ppl pull girls that are around the same attractiveness level like they are themselves. When you look at couples you can often see that their facial structures look similar.

Thing is its a harsh truth to accept and nobody wants to hear it but the world is basically unfair by design.
I also dont believe in creating attraction. A girl is either attracted to you or shes not. The whole idea of game to me is just the act of closing a girl who is already attracted to you in the first place.

Even in this community I see the idea sometimes. Just push the right buttons, act alpha/tough enough and you get any girl. IMO this is a delusion and the world does not work this way.

The guys I know who bang a lot of are all pretty good looking and/or have their looks and niche down.
I know one community dude who is pretty ugly, short and bald. He fucks a lot but the girls he bangs are pretty ugly too.

So yeah an ugly looking dude can actually bang more than a good looking dude. If he appraoches more and is more agressive he will run circles around the good looking guy who is passive and doesnt approach/escalate. But he wont have access to the same level of beauty like the good looking guy.

[philly22]

(01-29-2013 06:04 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

Looks open.
Game closes.

WIA

Couldn't agree more

[scorpion]

I'm not sure if you guys are understanding me. I'm not saying that looks don't matter. I'm saying that if a guy maximizes his looks to the best of his ability and brings other things to the table (through game and status) that he will rarely get blown out just based on his looks.

If a guy is short, ugly, fat, poorly dressed, boring, timid, friendless, cheap, depressed and has terrible posture, will a lot of girls blow him out? Of course. But being short and ugly are the least of this guy's problems.

Imagine this guy has a twin brother though. And this guy is short, ugly, muscular, very well dressed, extremely interesting and well-traveled, supremely confident, socially well-connected, not afraid to spend money, cheerful, fun and with excellent posture and body language.

Do you think that guy will get immediately blown out because he's short and ugly? Sure he will, on occasion. But guess what? Tall and good looking guys regularly get blown out as well.

If you're short and ugly: hit the gym hard, start dressing well, get a nice haircut and then stop worrying about looks and start focusing on your game and status.

These guys are 5'5" and 5'7", balding and ugly. Do you think they care?

[soup]

(01-30-2013 11:06 AM)scorpion Wrote:  

I'm not sure if you guys are understanding me. I'm not saying that looks don't matter. I'm saying that if a guy maximizes his looks to the best of his ability and brings other things to the table (through game and status) that he will rarely get blown out just based on his looks.

If a guy is short, ugly, fat, poorly dressed, boring, timid, friendless, cheap, depressed and has terrible posture, will a lot of girls blow him out? Of course. But being short and ugly are the least of this guy's problems.

Imagine this guy has a twin brother though. And this guy is short, ugly, muscular, very well dressed, extremely interesting and well-traveled, supremely confident, socially well-connected, not afraid to spend money, cheerful, fun and with excellent posture and body language.

Do you think that guy will get immediately blown out because he's short and ugly? Sure he will, on occasion. But guess what? Tall and good looking guys regularly get blown out as well.

If you're short and ugly: hit the gym hard, start dressing well, get a nice haircut and then stop worrying about looks and start focusing on your game and status.

These guys are 5'5" and 5'7", balding and ugly. Do you think they care?

Did you actually read my opening post?

I didn't say that ugly guys will get immediately blown out by all girls. I said they are going exponentially fewer options without some kind of fame in America than a good looking guy with decent game.

Also, I already posited that fame and money would have to be part of the equation somehow. And, I specifically brought up Roosh's data on Eastern Europe (and by Extension, Russia) as an example of a place where, unlike America, a man's looks don't matter as much as his power and money.

[LouieG]

Bringing guys like Berlusconi and Putin into a discussion of looks and game is just cruel to the short & ugly set (which includes yours truly). It's like saying, If you put in the decades of work necessary to become a multibillionaire world leader, then you could be on par with dudes who happen to be five inches taller than you and have square jaws.

I agree that 8s & 9s are almost off limits for guys without that genetic edge, but so what? The answer is pretty clear: lower your damn standards. I don't know how your 1-10 scale works, but 5-7s pass my boner test all day. And it's like Jay-Z said:

He's killing em out there, they needing first aid
Cause your boy's got more sixes than first grade

Granted, he was talking about top of the line Benzes, put the point stands: so what if every 8, 9, and 10 in existence sent you a written rejection in triplicate? That leaves you with--let's see here--tens of millions of attractive girls to game & fuck.

There are worse fates.

[w00t]

Berlusconi is really a terrible example. Apart from the fact that he is filthy fucking rich, a powerfull politician and of a super-high status that most men simply wont achieve in their lives, he is also known to drop lots of cash on his girls - Something that is generally frowned upon in this forum.

Also he got an hair implant, so it seems like even him is worried about his looks.

[bacan]

I agree that any guy can reach a pretty decent peak of good looks if he is in perfect shape, has nice clothes, nice hair. Even guys' faces look better when they are muscular and lean.

But to bang the hottest girls in the world, you can't have a funny looking face or be ridiculously short... Some of life is unfair...

[soup]

(01-30-2013 03:10 PM)bacan Wrote:  

I agree that any guy can reach a pretty decent peak of good looks if he is in perfect shape, has nice clothes, nice hair. Even guys' faces look better when they are muscular and lean.

But to bang the hottest girls in the world, you can't have a funny looking face or be ridiculously short... Some of life is unfair...

I think you probably can bang the hottest looking girls in the world if you are ugly, but I don't believe that game and getting in shape alone will enable this outcome. To do something like that, I'm betting that you'd have to be famous or rich.

Again, evidence to the contrary is more than welcome.

[theIVth]

Ive seen guys that I wouldnt consider to be all that good looking messing with some relatively cute chicks. We dont live in a vacuum where only the good looking guys get the good looking girls. And ive seen plenty of decent looking dudes with girls that arent as pretty as he is attractive.

If your not just drop dead gorgeous to girls as a guy, your looks wont really matter as much as your overall persona to her. You can be a 6 as a guy and get better girls than a guy thats a 7 or even an 8 if your more popular and charismatic. Charisma goes along way for guys....not so much for girls.

If your at the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to attractiveness as a guy ie. a bad body build, overweight, bad teeth, bad skin, fucked up bone structure, horrible fashion sense, a rep for being lame etc, then yea, your going to have a much harder time. But Id say that a lot of guys dont fall too far away from average and most could do SOMETHING to make themselves look better.

Its far more beneficial for a man to focus on accomplishments in life that give him confidence and notoriety than it is for him to be overly focused on his looks. The only things you can control are your willingness to hit the gym, your care to not come off lame, an effort to find your niche with your personal fashion, getting braces and/or proactive if you need them, and just being confident in who you are as an individual.

[RASER]

(01-30-2013 02:19 PM)w00t Wrote:  

Berlusconi is really a terrible example. Apart from the fact that he is filthy fucking rich, a powerfull politician and of a super-high status that most men simply wont achieve in their lives, he is also known to drop lots of cash on his girls - Something that is generally frowned upon in this forum.

Also he got an hair implant, so it seems like even him is worried about his looks.

Thoughts on bunga-bunga parties?

"Lifes about, shooting your load"

[RASER]

(01-30-2013 04:15 PM)theIVth Wrote:  

Ive seen guys that I wouldnt consider to be all that good looking messing with some relatively cute chicks. We dont live in a vacuum where only the good looking guys get the good looking girls. And ive seen plenty of decent looking dudes with girls that arent as pretty as he is attractive.

If your not just drop dead gorgeous to girls as a guy, your looks wont really matter as much as your overall persona to her. You can be a 6 as a guy and get better girls than a guy thats a 7 or even an 8 if your more popular and charismatic. Charisma goes along way for guys....not so much for girls.

If your at the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to attractiveness as a guy ie. a bad body build, overweight, bad teeth, bad skin, fucked up bone structure, horrible fashion sense, a rep for being lame etc, then yea, your going to have a much harder time. But Id say that a lot of guys dont fall too far away from average and most could do SOMETHING to make themselves look better.

Its far more beneficial for a man to focus on accomplishments in life that give him confidence and notoriety than it is for him to be overly focused on his looks. The only things you can control are your willingness to hit the gym, your care to not come off lame, an effort to find your niche with your personal fashion, getting braces and/or proactive if you need them, and just being confident in who you are as an individual.

Casanova was a fatty, and somewhat ugly

But females broke down his door to get to him, he was a sex machine!

"In a woman learning is out of place; it compromises the essential qualities of her sex ... no scientific discoveries have been made by women"

"Alcohol and violence, for him, were not proper tools of seduction"

"I was born for the sex opposite of mine, I have always loved it and done all that I could to make myself loved by it."

"A flattered woman is almost conquered"

"Casanova was buying to women sexy underwear, giving them a reason to try them. Thus, the game was starting"

TOTAL GENIUS

"Lifes about, shooting your load"

[soup]

(01-30-2013 04:15 PM)theIVth Wrote:  

Ive seen guys that I wouldnt consider to be all that good looking messing with some relatively cute chicks. We dont live in a vacuum where only the good looking guys get the good looking girls. And ive seen plenty of decent looking dudes with girls that arent as pretty as he is attractive.

If your not just drop dead gorgeous to girls as a guy, your looks wont really matter as much as your overall persona to her. You can be a 6 as a guy and get better girls than a guy thats a 7 or even an 8 if your more popular and charismatic. Charisma goes along way for guys....not so much for girls.

If your at the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to attractiveness as a guy ie. a bad body build, overweight, bad teeth, bad skin, fucked up bone structure, horrible fashion sense, a rep for being lame etc, then yea, your going to have a much harder time. But Id say that a lot of guys dont fall too far away from average and most could do SOMETHING to make themselves look better.

Its far more beneficial for a man to focus on accomplishments in life that give him confidence and notoriety than it is for him to be overly focused on his looks. The only things you can control are your willingness to hit the gym, your care to not come off lame, an effort to find your niche with your personal fashion, getting braces and/or proactive if you need them, and just being confident in who you are as an individual.

You guys are missing the point. I never said anything about being overly focused on looks. This thread is about determining the real boundaries of looks (both good and bad) in relation to different combinations of game, fame, and money.

The point is to figure out a strategy that is going to be customized for you so you aren't wasting your time trying to fit into someone else's shoes.

[scorpion]

(01-30-2013 05:19 PM)soup Wrote:  

(01-30-2013 04:15 PM)theIVth Wrote:  

Ive seen guys that I wouldnt consider to be all that good looking messing with some relatively cute chicks. We dont live in a vacuum where only the good looking guys get the good looking girls. And ive seen plenty of decent looking dudes with girls that arent as pretty as he is attractive.

If your not just drop dead gorgeous to girls as a guy, your looks wont really matter as much as your overall persona to her. You can be a 6 as a guy and get better girls than a guy thats a 7 or even an 8 if your more popular and charismatic. Charisma goes along way for guys....not so much for girls.

If your at the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to attractiveness as a guy ie. a bad body build, overweight, bad teeth, bad skin, fucked up bone structure, horrible fashion sense, a rep for being lame etc, then yea, your going to have a much harder time. But Id say that a lot of guys dont fall too far away from average and most could do SOMETHING to make themselves look better.

Its far more beneficial for a man to focus on accomplishments in life that give him confidence and notoriety than it is for him to be overly focused on his looks. The only things you can control are your willingness to hit the gym, your care to not come off lame, an effort to find your niche with your personal fashion, getting braces and/or proactive if you need them, and just being confident in who you are as an individual.

You guys are missing the point. I never said anything about being overly focused on looks. This thread is about determining the real boundaries of looks (both good and bad) in relation to different combinations of game, fame, and money.

The point is to figure out a strategy that is going to be customized for you so you aren't wasting your time trying to fit into someone else's shoes.

Even good looking guys are going to be best served by focusing on other aspects of their game/status/money etc...

It's not like being good looking means a guy can walk into any room, point at the best looking chick and be fucking her within half an hour. A good looking guy basically just has a higher floor than an ugly guy. This means that a good looking guy can basically pull a 4 or 5 with almost no effort or game required. But 8s and 9s aren't falling all over themselves to date good looking guys with bad or mediocre game and low status. At best, being good looking just gets you in the door. If your game is not on point and you don't have your life together, the most attractive women are going to shut you down regardless of how good looking you are.

So basically, I'm saying that short/ugly/fat etc... guys need to work on their looks as much as they reasonably can. Yes, looks are important. You should look your best. Get in shape, get a nice haircut, wear stylish and nicely fitting clothing. But beyond that, there's really not much you can do. So why worry about it? Focus on the other aspects of your game where you can demonstrate high value.

For good looking guys, you don't need to worry as much about maximizing your looks. You're already good there. But that doesn't mean you should coast. You should also be working the other aspects of your game, because to consistently crack the upper echelon women, looks alone will not cut it. Game and status are still king.

To summarize, good looking guys have a shortcut, in the sense that they don't have to go to the trouble of maximizing their looks. But once an ugly guy has done everything he can in that regard, both good and bad looking guys are best served by focusing on game and status and not worrying about their looks (for ugly guys) and not coasting on their looks (for good looking guys).

[soup]

(01-30-2013 05:45 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

(01-30-2013 05:19 PM)soup Wrote:  

(01-30-2013 04:15 PM)theIVth Wrote:  

Ive seen guys that I wouldnt consider to be all that good looking messing with some relatively cute chicks. We dont live in a vacuum where only the good looking guys get the good looking girls. And ive seen plenty of decent looking dudes with girls that arent as pretty as he is attractive.

If your not just drop dead gorgeous to girls as a guy, your looks wont really matter as much as your overall persona to her. You can be a 6 as a guy and get better girls than a guy thats a 7 or even an 8 if your more popular and charismatic. Charisma goes along way for guys....not so much for girls.

If your at the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to attractiveness as a guy ie. a bad body build, overweight, bad teeth, bad skin, fucked up bone structure, horrible fashion sense, a rep for being lame etc, then yea, your going to have a much harder time. But Id say that a lot of guys dont fall too far away from average and most could do SOMETHING to make themselves look better.

Its far more beneficial for a man to focus on accomplishments in life that give him confidence and notoriety than it is for him to be overly focused on his looks. The only things you can control are your willingness to hit the gym, your care to not come off lame, an effort to find your niche with your personal fashion, getting braces and/or proactive if you need them, and just being confident in who you are as an individual.

You guys are missing the point. I never said anything about being overly focused on looks. This thread is about determining the real boundaries of looks (both good and bad) in relation to different combinations of game, fame, and money.

The point is to figure out a strategy that is going to be customized for you so you aren't wasting your time trying to fit into someone else's shoes.

Even good looking guys are going to be best served by focusing on other aspects of their game/status/money etc...

It's not like being good looking means a guy can walk into any room, point at the best looking chick and be fucking her within half an hour. A good looking guy basically just has a higher floor than an ugly guy. This means that a good looking guy can basically pull a 4 or 5 with almost no effort or game required. But 8s and 9s aren't falling all over themselves to date good looking guys with bad or mediocre game and low status. At best, being good looking just gets you in the door. If your game is not on point and you don't have your life together, the most attractive women are going to shut you down regardless of how good looking you are.

So basically, I'm saying that short/ugly/fat etc... guys need to work on their looks as much as they reasonably can. Yes, looks are important. You should look your best. Get in shape, get a nice haircut, wear stylish and nicely fitting clothing. But beyond that, there's really not much you can do. So why worry about it? Focus on the other aspects of your game where you can demonstrate high value.

For good looking guys, you don't need to worry as much about maximizing your looks. You're already good there. But that doesn't mean you should coast. You should also be working the other aspects of your game, because to consistently crack the upper echelon women, looks alone will not cut it. Game and status are still king.

To summarize, good looking guys have a shortcut, in the sense that they don't have to go to the trouble of maximizing their looks. But once an ugly guy has done everything he can in that regard, both good and bad looking guys are best served by focusing on game and status and not worrying about their looks (for ugly guys) and not coasting on their looks (for good looking guys).

Man, again, you are missing the point of what I'm saying here. I'm not talking about worrying about looks. I'm talking about coming to terms with how much game can help your looks vs. how much fame or money can.

Also, a lot of good looking guys can walk into most clubs and pull girls like picking fruit off a tree. Let's not try to pretend that this doesn't happen. In fact, the good looking guys usually have girls picking them up. The only game they need is "not fucking this up" game. It's far more easy for them.

[WestIndianArchie]

(01-30-2013 06:30 PM)soup Wrote:  

Man, again, you are missing the point of what I'm saying here. I'm not talking about worrying about looks. I'm talking about coming to terms with how much game can help your looks vs. how much fame or money can.

Also, a lot of good looking guys can walk into most clubs and pull girls like picking fruit off a tree. Let's not try to pretend that this doesn't happen. In fact, the good looking guys usually have girls picking them off the trees. The only game they need is "not fucking this up" game.

You're making the argument that there is a ceiling in terms of # and Beauty of the chicks you can pull based on how you look.

Basically, "Game can only do so much."
"Game is limited in its absolute effect"

And a lot of guys would agree with you.

Roissy makes the same argument. Game allows you to punch above your weight, 2 points to be exact.

Like Henry Ford said

"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right"

WIA

[scorpion]

Not going to waste any more time posting in this thread, soup, since I think we just fundamentally but respectfully disagree on the importance of looks in game.

[Nomad77]

Looks is called Passive Game and Samseau discusses that on good post on Return of Kings. Looks, fame, money, your car, etc. is all passive game. It's what attracts a girl BUT without any game you will lose this same girl unless she's just a social climber or gold digger. Girls are rarely attracted to me based on my looks BUT once they start interacting with me that changes everything.