[renotime]

I have found that a lot of people I know are owned by their possessions.

My buddy took out a loan to buy a Camaro. It cost him 35k (he was making 50k at the time) and he had to get new tires every 6 months. On top of this he has gotten like 4 speeding tickets since he got it.

And all of that while working a job he fucking hated. If i had his skills I would have been saving for a work truck and some survey equipment.

For me, money means freedom. When I worked a job I fucking hated, saving 1k a month from a 2k a month job meant I was one step closer to getting the fuck out.

My freedom means more to me than some fancy toy.

George Carlin once said "They call it the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it."

[TheCaptainPower]

@Westcoast Tell me about it, midtown on a rainy saturday sounds like shit! Leaning towards stayin in BK at this point.

[Veloce]

(02-23-2013 02:18 PM)TheCaptainPower Wrote:  

Why do you need to be happy? Men aren't supposed to be happy, I haven't been happy since 3rd grade.

Do you think cavemen were happy when they had to start a fire in the freezing cold?
Do you think George Washington was happy freezing his balls off in a small boat crossing the Delaware river?

A Man aren't supposed to be happy, a Man takes care of business...

I only have sporadic happiness like when:

A) I get laid
B) when i win with a scratch off lottery ticket
C) I do good in the gym
D) Nice weather outside

The other problem I have with this "minimalism" theory, is that I feel at some point you are either being supported by your parents or the Gov't. When it comes to health insurance I KNOW it is the government, because it's expensive. And even though you don't need it now, at some point between now and 80 you are going to stick the government with some big ass bill.

To each their own. I was happiest when I was about 23, unemployed, living on my friends couch, living in a stoner/skater den. I had a dresser with some clothes and a bunch of CDs. I drove a '93 buick LeSabre. I wasn't getting laid. I can say with the utmost of my being that was the happiest I've ever been.

I had noone to answer to; nothing to maintain. I could wake up and think, "What am I doing today?" I didn't even have an answer to that question. I wouldn't have been happy doing that forever, but that's still the happiest I've ever been.

My life is the opposite now. I have a sweet apartment, live by myself, own everything that I could want (besides uber expensive toys), my car is paid off, I'm highly liquid. I could live for a year without having to think about money or work the entire time and probably throw in a couple trips in there. I'm happy now, highly content. I haven't worried about paying rent anytime in the last two years; that's been liberating for someone that struggled with that shit for the better part of a decade.

But nothing beats the feeling of attachment to nothing. Think about it like this:

Would you rather be happy because you have stuff?
Or would you rather be happy because you have nothing? Think about that.

I'd prefer the second.

[MikeinMKE]

So tired of that "stuff you own ends up owning you" line. Pure tripe.

[Drazen]

This always reminds me of the scene in up in the air...what's in your backpack?

Quote:

How much does your life weigh? Imagine for a second that you're carrying a backpack. I want you to pack it with all the stuff that you have in your life... you start with the little things. The shelves, the drawers, the knickknacks, then you start adding larger stuff. Clothes, tabletop appliances, lamps, your TV... the backpack should be getting pretty heavy now. You go bigger. Your couch, your car, your home... I want you to stuff it all into that backpack. Now I want you to fill it with people. Start with casual acquaintances, friends of friends, folks around the office... and then you move into the people you trust with your most intimate secrets. Your brothers, your sisters, your children, your parents and finally your husband, your wife, your boyfriend, your girlfriend. You get them into that backpack, feel the weight of that bag. Make no mistake your relationships are the heaviest components in your life. All those negotiations and arguments and secrets, the compromises. The slower we move the faster we die. Make no mistake, moving is living. Some animals were meant to carry each other to live symbiotically over a lifetime. Star crossed lovers, monogamous swans. We are not swans. We are sharks.

[kbell]

One thing to think about is, its often difficult to get rid of stuff. YOu can take it too goodwill, a charity, ebay (if you can get a buyer), trash it or sell it on craigs list. However you will most likely not recoup your losses and it takes up a lot of time.

[greensteelhead]

I have been there and done that with "stuff." I was 20 and buying a new computer and a used car on credit with little income, which began a long 19 year march of credit cards, car loans and home mortgages. You are TOLD that you need the shit to get yourself to school or work and back again, that you need the stuff to fill your apartment and your home. You acquire more....especially when you throw a woman in the mix (girlfriend or wife that NEEDS the stuff, and make sure it matches). As the purchases grow and accumulate, so does your debt load and obligations.

Propelled by the burden of heavy debt loads and liabilities PLUS keeping a family fed, I worked my 30's away, slaving for douchebag bosses and owners, praying for a cost of living increase and MAYBE a bonus if the dicks in the Board Room didn't fudge the books and show a loss. If a bonus came, you were thankful that the government left you with less than 50% of the bonus after taxes. Think you are getting raises or bonuses on merit? Maybe if you are lucky and have the right bosses. Usually, if there is a profit, the bosses have a pool of money, and they gather in a special meeting to throw the crumbs to their favorite employees. I know...I have been in the room when it happens.

You work harder and longer to get funds to pay on your outstanding debt and liabilities, for retirement, for maintaining your family and stuff. The kids and wife give you shit tests for working harder and longer; the clients and bosses get more demanding as they "do more with less," which means you need to do more for less. After all, you should DO IT because you should be HAPPY you have a job. So, suck it up and stop being a damn diva with an entitlement mentality. Trust me, I heard this out of a President's and a Vice President's mouth at my last two jobs.

You want more stuff?

You are being played for a sucker.

You don't need all the crap, and if you do need something, you don't need it to be new. You don't need more than the basics: food, water, clothes, transportation and shelter. I would advocate reducing your crap because you know what? It all breaks down. It all needs care and maintenance. It all takes resources. It all takes your blood, sweat, tears, creativity and WORK to make it all happen, and do you REALLY want to be like a freaking hamster, spinning on your own self-made wheel? Spinning away to pay the banks. Spinning away to pay the government. Spinning away for shit that you THOUGHT would be great, only to come face-to-face with the grim reality that 1) you could lose your job with an economic downturn and 2) the people that you are supporting hate you for the work you are doing to pay for their shit.

The banks are not your friend. They don’t care about whom you are or what you do. They don’t care about your situation. You took out a credit card, loan or a mortgage, and they want to get paid. If something changes and you can’t pay, you will be assaulted by collectors, served with foreclosure papers, or visited by the repo man.

So....go ahead and buy a ton of stuff. If you have the cash and can afford it, the PLEASE go ahead and enjoy it.

Otherwise, don’t get leveraged up the ass and wonder what happened and why you are a slave to some corporate douchebag boss or banker.

I learned the hard way. I do not own my house; I rent. I could lose my job, but I could find something that pays a lot less and pay my bills. I will not become a slave to the lender again. I will not comply. I am 40 and almost free from my little hamster wheel.....then I will be truly free.

[greensteelhead]

Captain Capitalism agrees with me as well: http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.com/20...-than.html

[Rah]

Whatever does it for you, but I find the OP way off base and small minded. Minimalism isn't about sitting around in your underwear not trying to achieve anything, it's focusing on the most essential, important things in your life and not letting unimportant things get in your way and weigh you down. It's also focusing on quality over quantity. Get one tailored suit and hand made shoes instead of 4 off the rack average Joe suits and 4 pairs of shoes made in China held together by glue. That kind of mentality.

If you've been poor all your life and getting a Ferrari is what gets you fired up and jumping out of bed every morning, more power to you. But I think you'll find it's not the Ferrari that makes you feel good, it was the experiences and the struggle to do what it took to obtain it. Being successful and even wealthy is not incompatible with not living a shallow materialistic life full of clutter and devoid of high quality relationships and experiences.

And men aren't supposed to be happy? WTF? That's the most blue pill defeatist attitude I've heard in a while. I'm young, single, unattached, and I'm very happy a lot of the time and find things like learning skills, improving my body, and competing against other people makes me feel even more happy and alive. I want more of those experiences in my life and less clutter, less bullshit, less distractions, less low value stuff getting in the way or limiting my freedom.

I'm down to one bag of stuff that allows me to work and live with all the comforts of modern living I desire. And I can get on a plane tomorrow and go anywhere, for any length of time. I take no assistance from any government and have a comfortable income with plenty of free time to devote to improving myself and taking care of my health.

But I guess I should learn to "MAN UP" and go be a slave to materialism if I want to make something of myself, right? Get back on that treadmill, forget about my own happiness? You sound like a feminist, bro.

[MikeCF]

(02-23-2013 06:14 PM)MikeinMKE Wrote:  

So tired of that "stuff you own ends up owning you" line. Pure tripe.

We're not talking about Ikea shelving you can leave at the alley for someone to come pick up when you move.

OK, so you get that Audi A8.

Now you gotta come up with 1,500 month in car payment and insurance.

You gotta have parking for it ($300 a month in S.F. and much more in NY).

Now you gotta worry about every asshole door dinging you.

You gotta worry about it getting stolen.

You can't just quit your job or close your business because you have a monthly nut.

The walls start closing in really quickly, man, and for many of us it's not worth it.

[MikeCF]

Which s more consistent with a minimalist lifestyle:

a) Having $100,000 in the bank;
b) Buying a $100,000 car.

You gotta hustle for both, although for me (and my minimalist attitude), a is the clear choice. One gives me freedom and the other enslaves me.

[GameTheory]

@greensteelhead


U DA MAN !!!

[Jaydublin]

Didn't u mention making nearly 200k in another thread? But this is all you can afford? Or am I mistaken.

I'm on my phone or I would double check

[WestCoast]

The overall problem with cash is people just don't know how to run numbers or save for shit.

Basically why are you really buying what you're buying. You're buying shit to get pussy that's about it, so what is the most visible stuff you can buy that you will constantly be using?

1. Your body = Free or $30 gym membership
2. Your clothes = Will be worn 23/24 hours a day (i'll assume you're banging some girl 1 hour a day)
3. Your logistics = time to get back to your place, over 10 minutes? you're fucked
4. Ability to get a hold of drugs if needed for party favors
5. Ability to buy status (getting the people inside to know you by tipping heavy)

If you have all of the five above locked down you quickly realize buying "stuff" doesn't matter. Just ignore all that nonsense about "when you're older you'll spend more" just crap. I've spent less money every year since starting work, I had to spend more in the beginning getting out there drinking approaching getting fucked up learning etc. Once you got a routine going it gets cheaper.

So again why are you buying what you are buying?

If I gave you a million dollars and you think the best course of action would be to spend it on shit to get laid that means there is a problem. With a million bucks you can literally never work and approach 24/7/365 I will guaran-damn-tee you that will get you more lays than dropping a million bucks on status items.

If you're mega rich, go buy that lambo, but over in realistic world, freeing up time is a legit long-term possibility for the average guy.

[Faust]

Thing you gotta remember is that 30k a year in the US in 2013 gives you the kind of shit that an Egyptian king would fucking kill for. You live in NY, don't you CaptainPower? I've read your blog a few times.

1.) You've got access to more cultural shit than anybody has had any time in history. You've got more available works of art in a 50 mile radius than Louie XIV had in his whole life.
2.) Art not your thing? A single public library has more books than you could read in a lifetime, and there are a ton in NY.
3.) Not a big reader? You can get any movie or any song you want to hear off the internet for a pittance, or if it doesn't bother you, you can get it for free illegally.
4.) You've got access to medical care that was unheard of even 30 years ago. The richest dude in the world 30 years ago couldn't get the kind of treatments that are now available to you.
5.) You eat incredibly well. The idea of "seasonal" foods now mean nothing to you. You want an orange in the middle of winter? Buy a half dozen for 3 bucks. Raspberries out of season? Obscure shit like Dragonfruit that nobody had ever even heard of 20 years ago? Any time you want. I doubt there's been a famine in the US during the lifetime of anybody reading this board.
6.) You're a good looking guy (no homo!) with game in a place with more single, unattached women looking to get laid than anywhere on the planet.

You, my friend, are in the top .001% of every person who has ever lived. So you gotta wonder how much a Ferrari is really going to do to make you happier.

[Kurupt]

It's just about being honest with yourself and why you're buying it.

http://lessguide.com/how-to-save-money-3...-anything/

[TheCaptainPower]

I wish I made $200K, I'm in the $70-85K depending on bonus. I SAVED around $200K including 401K.

Don't get me wrong, I'm the cheapist bastard you guys will every meet, but my goal isn't to become even MORE minimal to increase my wealth. I need to work harder (or smarter) to go from solid middle class to lower upper class.

Isn't that the American dream??

You only live once, and I'm sure it's not going to make much of a difference when I am 70 years old, but I'd rather try to strike it rich than not try and settle for mediocrity.

[Faust]

Sure, I can understand that you don't want to settle for being mediocre.

But let's say you do end up with double your current income. Say 160k, yearly.
If you make that much money, does this mean you're not mediocre anymore? What's it gonna let you do that you can't do now?

[Veloce]

The only advantage I can see to having a car like that is if, like me, you absolutely love to drive. I fucking love driving, and fast. I'd never in a million years get a fancy ride just for pussy, I want something I can take on PCH and fly like a bat out of hell.

When I get into the next phase of my finances (hitting 100K liquid in the next 2-3 years, shouldn't be a problem if I continue along the same trajectory) I'm still gonna hold off on the M3 or even the 335is even though those are my dream cars. I'll settle for a 370z, shit outperforms the audi coupe and the 335 and is 20K cheaper.

[TheCaptainPower]

I should have never brought up the Ferrari! lol

I consider myself pretty alpha, I did stiff leg deadlifts this morning and I drive a Nissan Xterra 5 speed that gets me 12 miles to the gallon. I have two options in my life:

A) Work on making that first million. Aka, better job, more books, businesses, etc
B) Accept more minimalism

Choice B is too easy for me. At least with choice (A) I can say I tried.

Will being rich make me happy? No. But what the f@ck do I have better to do with my free time? lol

[Faust]

Lol well, if you're in a position in your life to make a ton of cash, and you don't have anything else you'd rather be spending the time doing, by all means.

What I think proponents of minimalism are trying to avoid is a lifestyle where you HAVE to work grueling hours just to stay afloat. Like a dude who's got two kids in an expensive private school, a house that takes a 2,000$ a month payment, and not to keep picking you on over the Ferrari, but a car that costs 300$ a month in insurance and gets 5 miles to the gallon of gas. Sure he's making 200k a year, but he never gets to do anything with it.

Wealth is a fickle thing, especially in our era, and having continuing expenses is a real risk. But if you just want to work some extra hours and buy yourself some filet mignon every week, that's your choice to make.

[WestCoast]

(02-23-2013 11:00 PM)TheCaptainPower Wrote:  

I should have never brought up the Ferrari! lol

I consider myself pretty alpha, I did stiff leg deadlifts this morning and I drive a Nissan Xterra 5 speed that gets me 12 miles to the gallon. I have two options in my life:

A) Work on making that first million. Aka, better job, more books, businesses, etc
B) Accept more minimalism

Choice B is too easy for me. At least with choice (A) I can say I tried.

Will being rich make me happy? No. But what the f@ck do I have better to do with my free time? lol

Why the hell are you not out? Come on now. Ditch the "friends" who are trying to game in "mid-town".

Bush. League.

[greensteelhead]

(02-24-2013 12:01 AM)Faust Wrote:  

Lol well, if you're in a position in your life to make a ton of cash, and you don't have anything else you'd rather be spending the time doing, by all means.

What I think proponents of minimalism are trying to avoid is a lifestyle where you HAVE to work grueling hours just to stay afloat. Like a dude who's got two kids in an expensive private school, a house that takes a 2,000$ a month payment, and not to keep picking you on over the Ferrari, but a car that costs 300$ a month in insurance and gets 5 miles to the gallon of gas. Sure he's making 200k a year, but he never gets to do anything with it.

Wealth is a fickle thing, especially in our era, and having continuing expenses is a real risk. But if you just want to work some extra hours and buy yourself some filet mignon every week, that's your choice to make.

Perfectly said. The point of my thread is: don't try to "build wealth" using credit and mortgages and wasting your life trying to pay the bills off. I have learned this the hard way, and those choices affect many decisions and what you can do later in life. I am just the voice of experience trying to help some of you guys out.

[Beyond Borders]

Think of two men.

Man #1 makes $30K per year and, even better, lives in cheap tropical paradise (though not necessarily required for this exercise). Hell, give him 20K a year.

Man #2 works 55 - 70 hours a week and makes 200K per year. Or fuck it - give him a million.

Guess what?

When Man #1 busts a nut, it feels the same as when Man #2 busts a nut. In fact, he can often get women who are just as hot but with less baggage; when you take away the stylish costumes rich women wear, you find many poor men slam birds that are just as fine.

But either way, hot or not, the nut feels the same.

When Man #1 gives a starving man something to eat or saves a life, his deed is just as great as would be if he were Man #2. In fact, we often value his good deed more for the greater sacrifice it takes relative to his resources.

A moment of bonding with a brother, a cousin, a friend, a sister, or a lover is just as sweet to man #1 as Man #2.

The ocean. It smells the same to both men. The freedom of sailing across the ocean. Just as liberating.

Minimalism is realizing that Man #1 can get the same experiences at a fraction of the cost, and by spending far less time, by changing perception, accepting this truth, and being more creative about how to gain the resources to do so.

Is it more fun and more comfortable to have millions upon millions, or even mere hundreds of thousands per year? Does it bring more security and more choice? Sure it does.

But the question of minimalism is how much trade off is worth the additional expenditure in time and effort, knowing that other ways to live exist? At what point does the additional stress and work make sense (not even addressing the fact that many people end up working more just to impress people not worth impressing)? Judging by how miserable many people are in first world countries, I think the question is fair.

On top of that, you have to consider the opportunity cost of ambition.

Consider this.

Most Americans work 2 1/2 months every working year to afford the cost of their vehicle, the cost of insurance, the cost of gas, and the cost of upkeep. Not to mention that, while automobiles were supposedly created to shorten our transportation time and make us more efficient, instead we spend an hour a day in our cars to get to work and back (many people spend twice that). When adding the before-mentioned cost to the additional time, it ends up equaling 4 months per year in wages to afford the luxury of driving when you could have accepted less and lived closer to work or in a country that didn't require driving.

Don't even get me started on the decrease in quality of life.

Minimalism asks why. Why when we could forgo the vehicle and work that many hours less instead? To go further, and this is from my own perspective, why do it when you could live in a cheap foreign country and live without the taxes and without the car and without the misery-inducing expectations of your peers and still get the same pleasure from busting a nut or bonding with a friend that a rich man gets? Life is life, no matter the figure in your bank account...

You say you would rather be ambitious than not because it is the opposite of settling for mediocrity, but that statement assumes that not being rich equals mediocrity.

It depends on your definition of mediocrity...I've met many poor people who are far from mediocre. I've read about many poor people who lived hundreds or even thousands of years before me who have made a mark even money can't buy. Who will be remembered from our time? A man who forsakes the pursuit of money to pursue his passions, or the "baller" who pulls the hottest gold-diggers every Saturday night (not forgetting that money does not affect the ecstasy of a busted nut)?

To be honest, I think your idea of minimalism may be flawed. Before you dismiss any idea with a "fuck (that idea)" statement, I highly recommend reading respectable books about that idea first. Even if you don't agree with the idea, giving it a fair chance will bring you to another level and give your arguments more merit. If you reject ideas without first analyzing their true assertions, it may be because you're holding on to your present reality and are, for some reason, afraid of a paradigm shift.

Just a thought.

[Lemmo]

(02-23-2013 11:00 PM)TheCaptainPower Wrote:  

I should have never brought up the Ferrari! lol

I consider myself pretty alpha, I did stiff leg deadlifts this morning and I drive a Nissan Xterra 5 speed that gets me 12 miles to the gallon. I have two options in my life:

A) Work on making that first million. Aka, better job, more books, businesses, etc
B) Accept more minimalism

Choice B is too easy for me. At least with choice (A) I can say I tried.

Will being rich make me happy? No. But what the f@ck do I have better to do with my free time? lol

Don't see that a and b conflict. In fact, they seem to go together.