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01-22-2013, 08:35 PM
I'm going to get back to the initial Questions:
"How do I get a doctor to actually pay attention, and not give me the first diagnosis that pops into his head?"
Ask him for the possible Differential Diagnosis of your case and then ask him what leads him to believe that what he said is what you have. With more difficult cases I often explain my Differential to the patients and tell them:"It's most likely that you have X but other possible causes could be Y or Z. I need laboratory tests or imaging studies to confirm what I suspect."
Second and third opinions are great. Different people see different things in different ways. This holds for any field.
"If there's beneficial drugs for comfort that I can get (Painkillers, sleeping pills, etc.) is there a way to make it more likely that he'll prescribe them?"
Ask in a nice way. Dress like a respectable person. Smile!
"A doctor is not trained to remember medical information, but rather to process it cognitively in a working paradigm for his patient. You can google the symptoms but you're not going to be able to tell fact from bullshit and relevance from irrelevance if you have not been trained in that paradigm and have not had some clinical experience." --->
I like your wording here. In a few unclear cases I've tried to use symptom checkers with limited success (emedicine is much better). Often the symptom checkers will give you the major causes but also list 1000 other possibilities that are highly highly unlikely. You need clinical experience, ie. time seeing these and similar cases, to let you weed out what is relevant and what isn't. Probably over the next series of years the symptom checkers will get much much better.
On a side note, I think we use algorithms in our brain that are either initially built by conceptual knowledge or experiences and then emotionally sensitive feedback loops either strengthen these ideas or give us contrary data which leads us to review and renew our ideas. In Medical School you're building up the conceptual algorithms with limited experience, a lot of which you get when you start seeing patients.
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01-22-2013, 10:59 PM
'How do I get a doctor to actually pay attention, and not give me the first diagnosis that pops into his head'
Why do you assume you won't be paid attention to? The diagnosis will likely be based on your complaint. You can then decide if the given diagnosis explains things.
If you are seeing a specialist, they see the same shit day in day out. Giving you the right diagnosis is usually as hard as telling you the sky is blue. Unless theres blood coming out your orifices and you're worried about having Ebola, you more than likely have a straight forward diagnosis.
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01-23-2013, 02:28 AM
Ok last post on this with all links from what you guys would consider mainstream. Anyone want to continue the debate can PM me.
First off the side effects of statin drugs is diabetes. Mayo clinic.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/statins/CL00010
I wouldn't call this nonsense at all. Clear link is established between statins and diabetes.
Nice little link here from time magazine, you can click on the link to review the study. But basically says statins cause type II diabetes. Also funny enough it talks about how the FDA also had to include on warnings for not only type II diabetes but also cognitive brain function. The FDA said that statins may increase users’ risk of brain-related effects like memory loss and confusion. Gee what does that sound like ? Alzheimers anyone ?
http://healthland.time.com/2012/02/29/fd...tes-risks/
List of countries mortality rate. Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou...ality_rate
US is still number 34. Congratulations
Is livestrong.com mainstream enough for you guys ? Here is how testosterone is made. Solely from cholesterol. So no it wasn't a quasi statement, it was pure fact. No cholesterol=no testosterone=no boner.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/222895...tosterone/
How the whole brain works and repairs itself. Pretty much the opposite of low cholesterol diet.
http://www.fi.edu/learn/brain/fats.html
Go through the whole page it completely outlines how low cholesterol causes parkinsons, alzheimers.
" I'M NOT A CHRONIC CUNT LICKER "
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01-23-2013, 03:12 PM
You guys are awesome. This is some wonderful, wonderful, advice, and I'm very grateful you've taken the time to share your wisdom.
BIGINJAPAN, I've got immense respect for you based on your writings on this forum, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you here. Let me use myself as an example.
I've spent the past five weeks in the worst pain of my life. Now, I haven't had the hard-ass upbringing of some of the posters here, but I'm a weightlifter, and people have always told me I've had a very high pain tolerance. So when I say "worst pain in my life", it's not coming from somebody whose biggest hardship is that they broke a nail five years ago. At one point 3 weeks ago, I stumbled into bed, and lay there in pure agony for four hours, unable to sleep, before finally passing out. As I slept, the same pain actually followed me into my dreams, where demons with blood dripping from their chests told me that the pain was eternal, and I would never be rid of it. It sounds silly when I write it: let me assure that it did not seem so at the time. A few days before I wrote this post, my ears were so messed up that I couldn't stand to be near my laptop, 'cause the fan was too loud. I described it at the time as "A broken modem blaring in the middle of a tornado, and both of them hooked up to a giant loudspeaker." The laptop fan doesn't break 80db even when it's running at full power. And what made it even worse was that NO ONE KNEW WHY. I saw multiple doctors, including a specialist, had a CAT scan, x-rays, the whole suite. The most they could do was give me a prescription-grade sleeping pill, and even with it I was only getting a few hours of sleep a night. It dragged on for a week, then another week, then another, and instead of getting better it was getting WORSE.
I never told any of my friends or family this, but a lot of times, in the middle of the night, when I couldn't sleep and couldn't focus through the pain enough to even read a book, I thought of just wandering out into the cold and freezing to death, 'cause at least then it would be over.
The day after I wrote this post, the last doctor I saw made a suggestion to try a simple OTC drug. Within 48 hours of starting it, I'd gone from being able to sleep 2 hours at a time (with a sleeping pill) to getting a full night's sleep without one. It's been up and down since then, and I'm still not fully recovered by any means, but I'm almost to the point where I can leave the house. I can focus enough to do my work. I can stand in a quiet room for more than a few minutes without wanting to blow my brains out. And this is all thanks to the advice of that doctor. So for you to say that doctors do nothing, and are of no help to anyone, strikes me as a little bit of an overgeneralization.
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01-24-2013, 11:41 AM
Ok your articles are from reputable sources so I looked at them. What they say is that these medications have an increased risk of developing certain diseases ex: type 2 diabetes. Not that they 'cause' them. When you put a medication into your body you are putting in a foreign substance which is designed to cause a change. Almost all medications have side effects and the medical community will tell you that. There is no magic pill which only affects the one thing you want it to and nothing else. Its a risk vs reward scenario. The dangers of high cholesterol outweigh the side effects. The article you cited even said the risk is 'small' and still being investigated. They don't advocate getting rid of these drugs.
Chemotherapy has some of the worst side of effects of any medication. But what is the alternative? Cancer is an uncontrolled proliferation of cells which NEVER goes away unless its treated with medicine or surgery. When they say someone 'beat' cancer its really modern medicine that beat cancer. But kudos to the patient for tolerating the side effects.
The article about the polio vac causing polio was the live virus version which is no longer used. The hpv vac just came out and the prevalence is already way down. Cervical cancer used to be a huge problem, now it is easily treated. How is that not a direct correlation to modern medicine?
I don't know what you would tell someone with developing prostate cancer to do but hopefully its not to just let it go or to try some weird eastern medicine vodoo. Giving bad advice on picking up girls is one thing. Giving bad advice on health is dangerous. My fathers life has been saved twice by 'western' medicine and I know that good medical treatment is a matter of life and death.
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01-24-2013, 01:56 PM
Quote: (01-23-2013 03:12 PM)Faust Wrote:
You guys are awesome. This is some wonderful, wonderful, advice, and I'm very grateful you've taken the time to share your wisdom.
BIGINJAPAN, I've got immense respect for you based on your writings on this forum, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you here. Let me use myself as an example.
I've spent the past five weeks in the worst pain of my life. Now, I haven't had the hard-ass upbringing of some of the posters here, but I'm a weightlifter, and people have always told me I've had a very high pain tolerance. So when I say "worst pain in my life", it's not coming from somebody whose biggest hardship is that they broke a nail five years ago. At one point 3 weeks ago, I stumbled into bed, and lay there in pure agony for four hours, unable to sleep, before finally passing out. As I slept, the same pain actually followed me into my dreams, where demons with blood dripping from their chests told me that the pain was eternal, and I would never be rid of it. It sounds silly when I write it: let me assure that it did not seem so at the time. A few days before I wrote this post, my ears were so messed up that I couldn't stand to be near my laptop, 'cause the fan was too loud. I described it at the time as "A broken modem blaring in the middle of a tornado, and both of them hooked up to a giant loudspeaker." The laptop fan doesn't break 80db even when it's running at full power. And what made it even worse was that NO ONE KNEW WHY. I saw multiple doctors, including a specialist, had a CAT scan, x-rays, the whole suite. The most they could do was give me a prescription-grade sleeping pill, and even with it I was only getting a few hours of sleep a night. It dragged on for a week, then another week, then another, and instead of getting better it was getting WORSE.
I never told any of my friends or family this, but a lot of times, in the middle of the night, when I couldn't sleep and couldn't focus through the pain enough to even read a book, I thought of just wandering out into the cold and freezing to death, 'cause at least then it would be over.
The day after I wrote this post, the last doctor I saw made a suggestion to try a simple OTC drug. Within 48 hours of starting it, I'd gone from being able to sleep 2 hours at a time (with a sleeping pill) to getting a full night's sleep without one. It's been up and down since then, and I'm still not fully recovered by any means, but I'm almost to the point where I can leave the house. I can focus enough to do my work. I can stand in a quiet room for more than a few minutes without wanting to blow my brains out. And this is all thanks to the advice of that doctor. So for you to say that doctors do nothing, and are of no help to anyone, strikes me as a little bit of an overgeneralization.
I am sorry to hear you are going through a lot of pain right now. But what you just described to me is exactly why our system does NOT work.
First off have you even gotten a diagnosis to what the problem is ? Obviously we all know pain is our body warning us something is desperately wrong.
Second, is this pill masking the problem ? Or is it fixing it ? All these drugs people take don't actually fix anything, they just mask the symptoms until something else shows up.
" I'M NOT A CHRONIC CUNT LICKER "
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01-24-2013, 03:57 PM
^ Complete BS.
If "these drugs people take don't actually fix anything" then explain to me how diseases which used to be deadly are now treatable. I just went to a talk given by a gay man who has had HIV for over 20 years. He is on 4 different HIV meds. How is he still alive when everyone who got AIDS before these drugs existed were dead in 5-10 years. How is Magic Johnson still alive and healthy?
They have side effects(obviously) but when the alternative is certain DEATH, how would you justify them not being used???
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01-26-2013, 08:49 AM
BiginJapan, you clearly have no idea about the complexity of medicine and science in general. By the way, the majority of medical research is done by biologists, biochemists etc. and not by physicians so instead of blaming those greedy physicians, rather blame the biologists and biochemistry graduates who cannot deliver cures on demand. Medical science doesn't work that way. A car or an elevator can be fixed, but a lot of medical conditions can just be treated, not cured.
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01-26-2013, 12:38 PM
Faust keep on seeing new doctors, did you have a full blood/urin test ? for example did you have checked the blood/urine tumor markers and staff like that ? It won't be that but do not leave any stone unturned..
I think highly of the real medical science
I think highly of all the doctors that work in A&E
I think highly of the doctors who volounteer and work for free in third world countries
In relation to the reminder:
I think highly of 10% of the doctor
for the reminder 90% unfortunately they are not more professional than Mc Donald 's cashiers, sometimes they give you the wrong burger or the wrong change you always have to double check what they do with second/third opinions and by yourself
But it is not big issue provided you keep on changing and seek new diagnosis, you will find the good ones eventually.
Write down exactly what you feel, when you feel it and how you feel it. Write it down. Seek new advice and remember that in the meantime in the web you can find:
resources for free to understand better what you have
health boards where actual doctors (sometimes very good and "famous"ones) answers for free to various questions
all the best
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01-26-2013, 12:51 PM
Just skimmed over this...
While I'd never make a huge generalization and say that doctors or drugs don't fix anything, I will say that MOST of it is complete horseshit and I have little faith in the American Medical system.
That said, I'm grateful to the doctors that fixed my broken arm when I was a kid, and I know these guys save lives.
HOWEVER, when it comes to knowledge on health and what makes a healthy human body, I think most of them just regurgitate shit that they read in med school without having any true knowledge of what "health" is. Just look at doctors themselves; how often do they appear healthy?
I've had a flue for the last two weeks. The symptoms, while minor, didn't go away after 5 days so I went to a doctor just to confirm that the swelling in my throat wasn't more serious. First time I'd been to a doctor in about 10 years.
Sure enough it's nothing major. However this was a new practitioner so he was getting my full info. The shit he was feeding me was hilarious. One of our conversations:
Him: "Do you workout?"
Me: "Yes"
"What do you do"
"Lifting"
"Any cardio?"
"Almost none"
"That's not good. You want to get your heart rate up. Lifting doesn't do anything. You're just going to strain yourself and set yourself up for a stroke" (He said this!)
"Oh yeah?"
"Yes. At least half of your workout should be cardio, preferably more."
"Hm okay."
We go through my life history of injuries, treatments, etc, and then he asks me,
"Any other issues I should know about?"
Me, half joking: "I tend to piss a lot."
Him: "Do you drink a lot of water?"
Me: "A good amount"
"Why?"
"Um, to stay hydrated?"
"What makes you think you need a lot?"
"I've always heard that 8 full glasses a day is healthy"
"Says who?"
(me getting annoyed) "Conventional rhetoric"
"Exactly"
He said some shit after this about how I should only drink water when I'm thirsty and that noone needs 8 cups a day. I wasn't about to tell him that on workout days I probably drink almost a full gallon of water.
This was an older dude but he looked awful. Bad skin, thinning hair, telling ME, a strapping buck, that I shouldn't be lifting or drinking too much water. This is a guy with plaques, certificates, fellowships, and entire wall of framed documents representing a lifetime of medical academia, telling me this bullshit.
"...so I gave her an STD, and she STILL wanted to bang me."
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01-26-2013, 05:08 PM
Doctors deal with disease and not with prevention.
It's a minority of people that are enlightened and wish to live healthy etc. If you fit in this category, good for you. Best to get advice from whatever source is best-nutritionists, naturopaths, few MDs that focus on this, etc.
However, the majority of people are fat asses that smoke, etc. despite knowing this is bad for them. These people are resistant to advice of any form.
So modern medicine is currently designed perfectly for the masses.