[sylo]

I would like to share with you guys how I am starting to really discover myself, and how starting to form YOUR OWN beliefs can really be an amazing experience.

I was raised VERY religiously. I was forced to go to church every Sunday, and was taught that the only truth ever in the world comes from parents, pastors, bible, etc. I know this might seem like a rant at first, but bear with me for a second. My parents were VERY strict. This means, among other things, absolutely no drinking, no smoking, no sex. No impure thoughts of any kind. Basically, my point is I was always told how to think. I was conditioned on what to believe, and why everything else is wrong. I would even get feelings sometimes that some of this wasn’t logical, but I would ignore it because I was taught that it was wrong to question. I would sometimes even feel bad for an uncontrolled thought or idea. I am now realizing those feelings are real instincts, and you feel them for a reason. It might sound simple, but I was so indoctrinated I thought ignoring them was the right thing to do.

Well I started rebelling against all these things, not because I thought they weren’t wrong, but because I had fun doing them. In other words, I was just being immature and not thinking critically about my own beliefs, I was acting out against those of my parents and the like, just because. I would drink, smoke weed, have sex…because hey, this is bad, but it’s fun! I never gave one thought to why having a beer, or being very physically attracted to a girl might not be a horrendous thing; in my mind I had already knew they were bad but was doing them anyway. I was not growing in my rebellion; I was doing it just to do it. But I kept ALL of this hidden from my parents. They had no idea I was promiscuous or a heavy drinker. I was being me in real life, a completely fake person around them. I even stuck with church though I hated going. I think a part of me still thought…they are right, so I will keep this stuff in my back pocket just in case.

I started to notice a change in myself once I broke away from everything and traveled Mexico for 2 years. I was completely away from every influence I had growing up, and actually had to start thinking independently. This was very scary at first. All those thoughts of questioning what I was taught resurfaced, but I had no one to ‘bring me back to reality’, to tie me down. I had to make my own decisions about what I believed, and I had to make them by myself, and for myself. It was only then that I started to really get to know myself, and get comfortable, confident even, in disagreeing with my entire life’s viewpoints from before. And the people who shaped them. Literally like a light bulb going off in my head, “Oh, that’s why I always questioned that particular thing”, I would think, “Because I do not actually believe it.” I was seeing my mind from my eyes, not the filter other people imposed.

I realized how much more libertarian I am. I realized how hypocritical the people controlling my ‘morality’ were, and I realized how important it is to think independently, and critically. I am not saying I cannot agree with anything I was taught from my past; I am saying I needed to figure out on my own WHY I agree with it, and not just regurgitate talking points.

It is often said by libertarians that they were libertarian all along, just had never realized it. I wholeheartedly agree with this. Realizing all this, and becoming YOUR OWN MAN, really does set you free. It also immensely helps your relationships in life (aside from religious zealots, like parents) because you are more real. Probably more real than most people are, and people pick up on that and respect someone who has the confidence to say what they believe, and mean it. And to not back down. To speak with conviction.

I just saw a post about great books, and in it I saw The Fountainhead. I am halfway through it and it is absolutely enthralling. It makes me wonder how I could have gone this far in life without an influence like this. An influence PROMOTING personal independence; as opposed to almost every other influence in my life promoting DEPENDECE on one thing or another. You need money (job). You need a house. You need a wife. You need to depend on god. You need to depend on other people. BULL SHIT.

I know I would have never come to this liberating place in life if it was not for traveling. For those who have not broken away and done it, saying how important it is does not help. It is like the explanation your parents give you “You will understand when you’re older.” Well, you’re not older, so that is a copout answer that doesn’t explain anything.

People will also say they are open-minded. Well, open mindedness does not exist. You can be open to new things, but you are still going to have an opinion on it at the end of the day, and think whoever has the opposite opinion is wrong. But, independent, critical thinking DOES exist, and it is through that channel you form rounded, one-sided opinions worthy of an intelligent discussion. This is only possible by breaking away from all influence and realizing what you believe, in your gut. Then will come the confidence to recognize, and follow your instincts. Your instincts are not wrong.

sylo

[Beyond Borders]

Great post. That said - and I'm sure you don't need me to tell you - don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Standards of moral conduct, while sometimes taken to the extreme, serve a real purpose in life and protect you from some of the dangers of following your instincts and desires in excess. I only mention this because I've seen a lot of people raised conservatively by controlling parents "find themselves" and then go too far in the opposite direction and end up broken and destitute. And I've seen a lot of people raised without guidance never find their way.

Moderation and self-control are great tools if used in moderation. And as always, balance is key.

I was raised in a home the opposite of yours. My father was in prison, and my mom, who grew up with controlling parents, gave us almost no rules.

She never enforced curfew beyond one where I had to be home by 11pm on school nights all the way back in 7th grade, even though she knew I was out running the streets. She let me drink and do whatever I want and never pushed me to stick with my obligations I made to myself and others. I wasn't pushed to focus on school or sports even though I naturally excelled at both. I'd get in fights at school to the point of them demanding therapy and threatening expulsion and I was never reprimanded.

The end result is I never took life seriously enough and didn't do anything with my talents. I'm truly lucky to have lived as long as I have and remain a free citizen considering all the stupid shit I've gotten myself into. My lack of self-control affected every part of my life, mostly negatively, and I'm still picking up the pieces from that lack of behavioral guidance today. It's something I'm working on now but I feel way behind.

I'm not blaming my mother for my own problems - I'm my own person and make my own choices - but you can bet if I ever have kids, I'll shoot for a more balanced approach to raising them that falls between the two extremes.

I like what you said about independence. I loved "Atlas Shrugged" but have not yet read "The Fountainhead." Will buy.

[RichieP]

Breaking from influence and seeing the world through your own eyes is huge.

For me, the big area is finance and beliefs about money.

My parents were constantly reading the newspapers and making socially conditioned comments about pensions, mortgages etc. I grew up hearing all that crap, my rational brain screaming "wait... that doesnt make sense, the numbers don't work..." but feeling anxious because they and everyone else around me seemed so certain about it.

Even now they read the papers and say "state pensions up, oh that's good for you" without even thinking about it at all (whether it's even worth investing in a state pension compared to other options, how the impact on me would *actually* depends on inflation and what the government does over the next 40 years, lol). Growing up, that really messed my brain up, when I could do the actual maths and see the things they were advocating actually weren't what wealthy people did atall.

And where did their financial mindset get them? Blown all their cash and into credit card debt. Now I realise I gotta just tune out the sort of "wisdom" they espouse because I can see where it got them.

Thing is, you can't change peoples mindset, even if you were to educate them extensively. People stick to their beliefs for emotional reasons too. And I'd never want to completely stay away my family over something like that, but I do have to remember to shrug off that influence when I'm around them.

[sylo]

I agree Beyond Borders, that children absolutely need structure and guidance. I think that is VERY significant. I am glad to hear that you turned out OK despite not having the guidance you feel was necessary. I am coming from the opposite side of the spectrum, which maybe makes us more similar than different. I was controlled for the sake of control. Rules to have rules, so to speak. I am not saying I should have been able to go to the strip club at age 16 on a school night, but at the same time imposing restrictions just to remind me of who holds the power in the family really skewed my way of thinking for most of my younger days. Rather, I was not thinking for me, but for someone or something else. It did a number on my self confidence (didn’t have any), and could never make a decision on my own. I was so used to being told what to do or how to do it, I wasn’t an actual person, just an extension of my parents beliefs, which I eventually found out I did not share.

Richie, good point about financials. You realize you don’t want debt, and that you don’t NEED debt. What most of us have been taught is that it is the RESPONSIBLE thing to get a home loan, buy that SUV, and then do a good job at work so you can pay it every month on time. These people just blindly accept that that is what they should do, and try to convince themselves that they are happy slaving away for possessions that don’t make them happy, a marriage in which they are celibate, and for kids they got talked into having, because it is 'normal'.

[Bad Hussar]

Hi sylo

I have a question for you, since what you wrote above seems to tie in to something I've observed: Do you think your attitudes to gods/religions would be different if you had had become disillusioned with them earlier in life?

I find that people who become agnostic/atheist as adults make this a bigger part of their identity than people who changed earlier, or really never believed to begin with. Personally I am an atheist, but it's not really a big deal for me since I have never believed in gods and such things beyond 11/12 years old. For me growing out of religion was no different to simply growing up. But I have friends who became atheists as mature adults and they seem to have a different, often more hostile, attitude.

Anyway, I liked your post. Traveling really does broaden the mind. As much as I realise intellectually that each person is a unique biochemical and psychological mix I never really comprehend people who don't like to travel for pleasure and excitement.

Your post, like quite a few on this board always remind me of that movie were some guy gets a birthday present from his brother (I think) that is a contract with a company that provides exciting real life fantasy experiences. But the lines between fantasy and reality and danger/safety are blurred. Didn't see the whole movie. Came in maybe 1/3 in, but still rate it as one of the best movies I've seen. Anybody remember the name based on my admittedly sparse description?

[sylo]

Hey Hussar,

That is a very interesting point. In fact, I have never thought about it from that perspective. The best way I can answer that is to explain in a little more detail my thoughts on the subject, since I am one of the only people I know who have actually broken away from the beliefs I was always raised to have. My friends are still ‘drones’ so to speak, but I would say most of the population is this way (excluding a lot of men here on this board; but still, I see through a lot of posts almost the same drone behavior, we’re just getting laid a little more often).

To answer your question, most people like me, who have grown to question/disbelieve what we were taught, feel like we have been lied to our entire lives. I will admit I was somewhat angry at first, pissed off because I felt like I never had the chance to learn anything on my own or form my own opinion on something. I was either told that’s how it was, or I was literally shammed when I would question why it couldn’t be anything else. At least for me, the anger subsided very quickly and an extreme form of satisfaction/curiosity/confidence came over me when I started to realize how free I actually was. The whole time I was, I just never realized it. Now I know less than I ever have but it is great, cause now I can finally start learning, not regurgitating.

Another thing that goes along with this, another reason why I think people do get bitter, is because you see how unbelievably hypocritical those people ‘teaching’ you really are. They are NO different than anybody else, yet you begin to see how absolutely self righteous they behave. How above everything they think they feel they are, while saying at the same exact time how important it is to be humble. The people telling you how bad you are for sinning, are doing the exact same thing though it maybe be through a different vice. They are judging you, but refuse to act as equals.

I think the movie you are talking about is The Game, with Michael Douglass and Sean Penn. It’s a great movie; you should watch it all the way through. As a side note, The Fountainhead is getting better and better by the page!!! I recommend you guys pick that sucker up and read it!

[Bad Hussar]

^^^sylo

It is the movie you mentioned. Thanks. Will have to rent the movie and watch the whole thing.

Yes, there is very little that aggravates a bad situation quite like hypocrisy. You take the original "misdeed" and multiply it by 100 to get what others think about you if you have been sanctimonious about some issue.

Not that I can tell you how you should think and act, but maybe sometimes it's better to let things go. In the big scheme of things religions mean very little. We are all the same wound up ball of biology and psychology. Religion is just one (bad, in my opinion) way of filtering life experience. When I am face with a very religious person I mentally strip away the religion and focus on the psychology and biology of the person. They instantly become much more interesting to me. Maybe it's a bit of a coping mechanism. Kind of like imagining your audience naked when speaking in public.

[sylo]

Yes, I agree. I did not mean for it to read like a rant, my theme was, in a nutshell, independent thought, and knowing why you believe in something. 'Because I was raised to' is NEVER a good answer for ANYTHING. Always know why you......are.

Thanks for the convo

[SonJonSon]

African-American musical tradition influenced the mountain settlers .

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[sylo]

Re-read this old thread and I missed the +1 to both BB and Bad Hussar. I really appreciate the honesty and intelect from you both.