[Aer]

While this may be culture shock at its best, I've noticed many disturbing things on my exchange trip to Scandinavia. I'm currently living in Helsinki at the moment, and I've been introduced to people from all over Europe and Scandinavia. Usually there are three things that makes me different from the rest of them.

Motivation, determination and dreams.

Maybe it's the fact that Americans are indoctrinated to believe that they can be anything, but it really is (in my opinion) a good thing. It really just bothers me that these Finns, Swedes, Norwegians, Danes and really any other Europeans just don't care how they live and are happy with what they have. (Thus the "Happiness Index" is so high)

Most Swedes and Finns live in a single apartment, do not care how much money they make, and live on the bare minimum, and they're happy. Now, I could live like that for a bit, but I have dreams I wish to pursue such as to have a bigger house, space to breathe, and an environment in which I would be happy. A goal.

Even most of these students from Europe want to be very normal things and live a basic life (e.g. teachers, workers behind a desk). Maybe it's just me, but its starting to wear me down. I've lost some work ethic and motivation just being here. It worries me.

Whenever I work out, I think of that end goal. That Arnie type build. Whenever the Finns work out, it's to keep in shape day to day. I cannot stand doing that. I have to have a goal in my mind. Whenever I do a policy brief for class (political science here), I think of me submitting one to the President and having him look over it.

Maybe it's not because I'm American.

Maybe it's because I'm in college. Maybe it's because of the red pill.

All I know is, stagnation and mediocrity make me sick. I hate to generalize, but that's all I'm seeing here so far.

But let's look on the bright side. I'm slaying pussy here so easily because of my mindset, it's like these girls have never seen anything like that before.

So cheers to that

[Vicious]

Counterpoint.

Do you believe in the American dream? Is it alive today? Because many people will tell you on here that it is merely smokes and mirrors to keep the American people as happy consumers.

With that said. I've had the luxury of living and working both in Scandinavia and the US. As with most things there are merits and flaws with both nation's systems. You're stepping into the same pitfall that many other Americans are when outside The States and crediting an entire populace with one peronality/character set. I'm Scandinavian and don't recognize me or many of my peers in your description.

I can tell you right away that if what you describe about yourself is true then you are far more motivated than the average American. For example, at my company's site in the US they have 3 people doing the job that I manage alone over here. I don't knlw about their work ethic but I can't imagine what they do with all their work hours.

At the same time you are in College where everybody is trying so hard to be unique that they all wind up being exactly the same.

Stagnation and mediocrity... Is that what you see? Because if we looked at a higher level and compared QoL/literacy/knowledge/crime rates etc between the nation's mentioned then I know what country will end up truly looking stagnant and mediocre. Not dick wagging here, but rather trying to illustrate that what you're trying to grasp is not about being Scandinavian or American or whatever.

Maybe it's the power of the red pill?
Or maybe it's simply you?

[Roosh]

I agree. Scandinavians seemed like happy sheep to me, content to be like anyone else while not taking risks since the government will provide. They were happy with their comfortable existence.

In America we're bred to be insecure unless we hit the top, so we achieve more, take more risks, and have bigger dreams. I can't speak for millenials, but I do respect the business skills and go-get-em attitude that my countrymen have.

[bojangles]

What the OP is saying sounds Red Pill to me. Rather than country specific.

[Aer]

(01-07-2013 10:40 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

Counterpoint.

Do you believe in the American dream? Is it alive today? Because many people will tell you on here that it is merely smokes and mirrors to keep the American people as happy consumers.

With that said. I've had the luxury of living and working both in Scandinavia and the US. As with most things there are merits and flaws with both nation's systems. You're stepping into the same pitfall that many other Americans are when outside The States and crediting an entire populace with one peronality/character set. I'm Scandinavian and don't recognize me or many of my peers in your description.

I can tell you right away that if what you describe about yourself is true then you are far more motivated than the average American. For example, at my company's site in the US they have 3 people doing the job that I manage alone over here. I don't knlw about their work ethic but I can't imagine what they do with all their work hours.

At the same time you are in College where everybody is trying so hard to be unique that they all wind up being exactly the same.

Stagnation and mediocrity... Is that what you see? Because if we looked at a higher level and compared QoL/literacy/knowledge/crime rates etc between the nation's mentioned then I know what country will end up truly looking stagnant and mediocre. Not dick wagging here, but rather trying to illustrate that what you're trying to grasp is not about being Scandinavian or American or whatever.

Maybe it's the power of the red pill?
Or maybe it's simply you?

You may be correct. I'm not ruling out anything, because of course there will be outliers in both. Maybe it's just me, you're right. I do go to a semi-red pill school at home and surround myself with people who strive to be successful.

All I'm saying it's very pervasive in Finland/Sweden/Norway (especially Finland) to be sucked into the cradle to grave care and not care about being successful. It's a bit harder in America, but I've seen it happen to a lot of people also (9-5, house, wife, beta etc)

And I'm not saying America's perfect (e.g. Newtown and gang violence) but even the rappers these days rap about being successful rather than being gangbangers.

Maybe because they're red pill. The America dream isn't dead, it just lives in our mindset.

[Joga Bonito]

(01-07-2013 10:16 AM)Aer Wrote:  

While this may be culture shock at its best, I've noticed many disturbing things on my exchange trip to Scandinavia. I'm currently living in Helsinki at the moment, and I've been introduced to people from all over Europe and Scandinavia. Usually there are three things that makes me different from the rest of them.

Motivation, determination and dreams.

Maybe it's the fact that Americans are indoctrinated to believe that they can be anything, but it really is (in my opinion) a good thing. It really just bothers me that these Finns, Swedes, Norwegians, Danes and really any other Europeans just don't care how they live and are happy with what they have. (Thus the "Happiness Index" is so high)

Most Swedes and Finns live in a single apartment, do not care how much money they make, and live on the bare minimum, and they're happy. Now, I could live like that for a bit, but I have dreams I wish to pursue such as to have a bigger house, space to breathe, and an environment in which I would be happy. A goal.

Even most of these students from Europe want to be very normal things and live a basic life (e.g. teachers, workers behind a desk). Maybe it's just me, but its starting to wear me down. I've lost some work ethic and motivation just being here. It worries me.

Whenever I work out, I think of that end goal. That Arnie type build. Whenever the Finns work out, it's to keep in shape day to day. I cannot stand doing that. I have to have a goal in my mind. Whenever I do a policy brief for class (political science here), I think of me submitting one to the President and having him look over it.

Maybe it's not because I'm American.

Maybe it's because I'm in college. Maybe it's because of the red pill.

All I know is, stagnation and mediocrity make me sick. I hate to generalize, but that's all I'm seeing here so far.

But let's look on the bright side. I'm slaying pussy here so easily because of my mindset, it's like these girls have never seen anything like that before.

So cheers to that

Alot more people are starting to realize that this(the bolded part) is actually a good thing.

Happiness for many doesn't necessarily start and end with acquiring material possessions and amassing wealth even though they may think it does due to social conditioning. Americans in particular would be alot better off if they weren't slaves to consumerism because they end up racking up debts and living beyond their means, thus playing catch later in life when they would be better off saving.

As I'm sure you aware this has caught up to them and many other countries and the results are nothing short of calamitous. You must also remember that the goals and motivations of many are not necessarily congruent with the goals that you mentioned like owning a huge house. On this forum in particular, there have been a few discussions where things like travel and interesting hobbies lend themselves to enriched, meaningful lives.

[Aer]

(01-07-2013 11:36 AM)iWin Wrote:  

(01-07-2013 10:16 AM)Aer Wrote:  

While this may be culture shock at its best, I've noticed many disturbing things on my exchange trip to Scandinavia. I'm currently living in Helsinki at the moment, and I've been introduced to people from all over Europe and Scandinavia. Usually there are three things that makes me different from the rest of them.

Motivation, determination and dreams.

Maybe it's the fact that Americans are indoctrinated to believe that they can be anything, but it really is (in my opinion) a good thing. It really just bothers me that these Finns, Swedes, Norwegians, Danes and really any other Europeans just don't care how they live and are happy with what they have. (Thus the "Happiness Index" is so high)

Most Swedes and Finns live in a single apartment, do not care how much money they make, and live on the bare minimum, and they're happy. Now, I could live like that for a bit, but I have dreams I wish to pursue such as to have a bigger house, space to breathe, and an environment in which I would be happy. A goal.

Even most of these students from Europe want to be very normal things and live a basic life (e.g. teachers, workers behind a desk). Maybe it's just me, but its starting to wear me down. I've lost some work ethic and motivation just being here. It worries me.

Whenever I work out, I think of that end goal. That Arnie type build. Whenever the Finns work out, it's to keep in shape day to day. I cannot stand doing that. I have to have a goal in my mind. Whenever I do a policy brief for class (political science here), I think of me submitting one to the President and having him look over it.

Maybe it's not because I'm American.

Maybe it's because I'm in college. Maybe it's because of the red pill.

All I know is, stagnation and mediocrity make me sick. I hate to generalize, but that's all I'm seeing here so far.

But let's look on the bright side. I'm slaying pussy here so easily because of my mindset, it's like these girls have never seen anything like that before.

So cheers to that

Alot more people are starting to realize that this(the bolded part) is actually a good thing.

Happiness for many doesn't necessarily start and end with acquiring material possessions and amassing wealth even though they may think it does due to social conditioning. Americans in particular would be alot better off if they weren't slaves to consumerism because they end up racking up debts and living beyond their means, thus playing catch later in life when they would be better off saving.

As I'm sure you aware this has caught up to them and many other countries and the results are nothing short of calamitous. You must also remember that the goals and motivations of many are not necessarily congruent with the goals that you mentioned like owning a huge house. On this forum in particular, there have been a few discussions where things like travel and interesting hobbies lend themselves to enriched, meaningful lives.

You're seeing only the negative end of the spectrum here with the debt and everything. I've seen people who have spoiled themselves to the point where they cannot even pay their bills and are forced to be foreclosed by the bank (my neighbor with a huge pool, koi pond and hot tub and he was only a baker).

Some people are very different. I for one do not want to live out of my means. If anything, so called "distractions" such as working out and learning languages provide long term benefits are a good helper when I'm down on my luck in terms of schoolwork or my job and will only be a net gain.

These will only better me in the long run. All I'm saying is that when I (and most of my American friends) do something, it's for happiness in the long term rather than the short term.

I have met very ambitious Germans here though.

[Ovid]

Pay is higher for lower-end professions in Europe, and government subsidies keep prices from being through the roof. In America, you have to aim high to land a comfortable income, whereas in Europe a teacher makes enough to enjoy all the perks of first world living, so lofty ambition is not so necessary.

I do think, though, that Europeans have historically been more of a 'cowed lot,' and this manifests itself even today. Americans have always been thought of as more unrestrained, brash, and bold in word and deed than men on the Continent, and certainly more enterprising and skilled at moneymaking, too. The ethnic Europeans today are descended from those who were happy enough with the status quo to stay put, while their more defiant, outspoken cousins and brothers took ship to colonize and make something more of themselves. That is not to say that America is wonderful -there is something to say for restraint and moderation, and politically, the US has been making an ass of itself in world affairs for a couple of hundred years now. Yet, one can't help but admire aspects of the national character.

[temujin]

It's just the people you hang out with.

Finland has a thriving start-up scene where young, scrappy entrepreneurs are putting together start-ups and executing on a global scale.

Supercell (small gaming start-up) was pulling in $500,000 PER DAY in revenues last year and is/was growing faster than Facebook.

Rovio (Angry Birds), also a Finnish start-up.

The list goes on.

Just because they don't grandstand like Americans, doesn't mean they're not hungry and killing it in their field.

[jimukr104]

Subsidies? Every consumer product including energy ,homes and food is way cheaper in America. We also pay much less taxes. I though think Americans work to hard to purchase crap. Keep up with the jones is at a higher scale. I think after the greAt recession more and more Americans are going to give less effort. Many feel betrayed by bosses and the capitalistic wild west that is America. Thus a larger section in future generations will be on the gov't dole. Can not say I blame them. Do as little as possible will be the phrase of future generations.

[iknowexactly]

Everything has a shadow. The optimism, I'll try it and don't care if I fuck up; has a shadow in the unreality of feminism. I've heard engineers, who should be capable of economical thinking using Occam's razor, explain the fact that women only have 7% of patents with the absurd and convoluted explanation that they really are as smart as men and have been kept down by men,

Americans don't accept limits, which is sometimes good for achievement, but also leads to ridiculous things involving plain unacceptance of reality-- like feminism, and thinking you can have one gun per person in a country and not have lots of people get shot.

[Joga Bonito]

To expound on temujins post the Scandanavian countries like Sweden actually lead the world in innovation, as you can see with the examples that he cited. Further explanation is put in this Businessweek article below.

Quote:

Switzerland, Sweden and Singapore are the most innovative countries in the world, according to a study by the United Nations World Intellectual Property Organization and Insead that found a wide gap between rich and poor nations.

Innovation is an important engine of growth and new jobs, the Global Innovation Index 2012, which ranked 141 economies, showed. The index considered institutions, human capital and research, infrastructure and market and business sophistication as well as as the results of innovation such as patents and software in determining how countries fared.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-03...tries.html

The Economist also performed a similar study and the results were pretty much the same, seeing Scandanavian countries featured prominently in the top 10 best performers.

http://graphics.eiu.com/PDF/Cisco_Innova...mplete.pdf


I cite those article to say this. Too many times people argue with respect to this subject from a very dogmatic stance that propogates outdated, archaic, and downright wrong assumptions about both sides. The empirical evidence shows that on a macro level the US isn't the only bastion of innovation and high standards of living(and may be slipping in that regard), where people can have ambition and expect to be rewarded for the efforts. For the record, the US also ranks lowly in terms of social mobility. My aim isn't to trash the US and for its worth the country is still the preeminent power in the world for the time being(I won't be renouncing my citizenship anytime soon). But surely, with the nature of the forum in mind and freedom of speech that US citizens enjoy, discussions can be a way to objectively examine what exactly is happening.

[Rex]

(01-07-2013 10:16 AM)Aer Wrote:  

While this may be culture shock at its best, I've noticed many disturbing things on my exchange trip to Scandinavia. I'm currently living in Helsinki at the moment, and I've been introduced to people from all over Europe and Scandinavia. Usually there are three things that makes me different from the rest of them.

Motivation, determination and dreams.

Maybe it's the fact that Americans are indoctrinated to believe that they can be anything, but it really is (in my opinion) a good thing. It really just bothers me that these Finns, Swedes, Norwegians, Danes and really any other Europeans just don't care how they live and are happy with what they have. (Thus the "Happiness Index" is so high)

Most Swedes and Finns live in a single apartment, do not care how much money they make, and live on the bare minimum, and they're happy. Now, I could live like that for a bit, but I have dreams I wish to pursue such as to have a bigger house, space to breathe, and an environment in which I would be happy. A goal.

Even most of these students from Europe want to be very normal things and live a basic life (e.g. teachers, workers behind a desk). Maybe it's just me, but its starting to wear me down. I've lost some work ethic and motivation just being here. It worries me.

Whenever I work out, I think of that end goal. That Arnie type build. Whenever the Finns work out, it's to keep in shape day to day. I cannot stand doing that. I have to have a goal in my mind. Whenever I do a policy brief for class (political science here), I think of me submitting one to the President and having him look over it.

Maybe it's not because I'm American.

Maybe it's because I'm in college. Maybe it's because of the red pill.

All I know is, stagnation and mediocrity make me sick. I hate to generalize, but that's all I'm seeing here so far.

But let's look on the bright side. I'm slaying pussy here so easily because of my mindset, it's like these girls have never seen anything like that before.

So cheers to that

No mystery about this. Check out The Spirit Level: Why Greater Equality Makes Societies Stronger. In a nutshell: the more equal societies are, or at least perceived to be, the less social, public order, and heath problems arise.

Graph illustrating the correlation nicely:

http://www.yesmagazine.org/blogs/david-k...mage_large

Or, if you like pretty colours,

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SjkWWr0tKbk/T4.../Graph.png

At one end of the scale, we have the Scandinavian societies, marked by low income equality. At the other end of the scale, we have USA and the UK, marked by extremely high levels of income equality.

Why is this relevant here? Think about it. If you live in an equal-ish society, societies not marked by severe disparities between the top-end and bottom-end, there's much less to be gained from engaging in extreme risk-taking behaviour - whether legally (borrowing shitloads of money for a chance, a gamble, to become a successful lawyer - or even, increasingly, just standard careers, like nursing) or illegally (crime, including white-collar crime (e.g. insider trading), hustling). There's much less to be gained in being flashy, in showing off, in having epic ambition, in working all hours under the sun. Everyone is pretty much the same. Everyone has an equal opportunity (uniform and very low university fees etc). If you're successful, you're equalised down via taxes. If you're unsuccessful, you're cushioned upwards via welfare.

Now, you might think this sounds boring. Indeed, you might react more strongly, saying "stagnation and mediocrity make me sick." You might suspect a cowardliness is at work here, refusing to face life in all its dangerous and rich glories, a sickening nihilism squandering boundless opportunities for mediocre comfort and conformity.

I modestly suggest you think this because your very thinking has been shaped by the winner-takes-all system you were raised in. If you were raised in a different system, in the Scandinavian system, you would probably think very differently. You might look across to the USA and the former Great Britain and shake your head in disbelief at the horror of it all, at the horror of the remorseless logic of the winner-takes-all system, where education is valued only in terms of perceived economic value; where leisure time is tolerated and excused only because it makes workers refreshed and better focused; where severe debt servitude, what used to be called indentured servitude, is the established norm; where the middle-class is increasingly being squeezed into non-existence. Where increasingly you're either rich or you're poor - and with all the social, public order, and health horrors that arise from such dysfunctional levels of income equality.

Our Scandinavian friend might say, "Im sorry you find my system sickening. I'm sorry if you find me a little boring. And I'm glad you have ambition, but statistically you're not going to make it. Few realise the dream. Few become (economic) Alphas - indeed, logically, only a few can become economic Alphas. Many are called, but few are chosen. If statistically you're likely to become an economic Beta, wouldn't it be better to become one in my society?"

Both systems make sense within their own world-views but seem bizarre (and immoral) from the perspective of the other.

Basically, it boils down to temperament - are you adventurous or do you want to play it safe? Problem: our temperaments are shaped by these very systems. Its unintelligible to consider what our temperament would be independent of the cultural systems we're raised in.

[The Fantasist]

(01-07-2013 12:21 PM)Ovid Wrote:  

I do think, though, that Europeans have historically been more of a 'cowed lot,' and this manifests itself even today. Americans have always been thought of as more unrestrained, brash, and bold in word and deed than men on the Continent, and certainly more enterprising and skilled at moneymaking, too. The ethnic Europeans today are descended from those who were happy enough with the status quo to stay put, while their more defiant, outspoken cousins and brothers took ship to colonize and make something more of themselves. That is not to say that America is wonderful -there is something to say for restraint and moderation, and politically, the US has been making an ass of itself in world affairs for a couple of hundred years now. Yet, one can't help but admire aspects of the national character.

Or it could be argued that the ones who upped sticks and left Europe for the New World were the failures who could not cut it back home and so tried somewhere with less competition. Everything can be spun to suit whatever view point you hold.

Aer have you not considered that the Scandinavians don't give a shit about bigger houses and giant fridges for a reason and that that reason may just be because they sussed out long ago that owning lots of shit in no way leads to happiness or fulfilment? Maybe they sussed out long ago that all that is meaningless and that the path to fulfilment lies in other simpler pleasures. And maybe instead of visiting a country and moaning about the locals not living up to your nations ideals,why not try to see what it is about the locals that makes them more content and happy with their lot. You might just find that you come away with a new perspective.

[thegmanifesto]

(01-07-2013 10:16 AM)Aer Wrote:  

Whenever I work out, I think of that end goal. That Arnie type build. Whenever the Finns work out, it's to keep in shape day to day.

Aren't a lot of the "Worlds Strongest Men" from Scandinavia?

I don't think "Arnie" was born in America either.

Unless maybe are you talking about Arnold Horshack?



Why would you want to look like him?

[jimukr104]

I do not see how they have the space for big mc mansions, besides expensive energy keeps homes small. The newest homes being build in American are actually getting smaller in size due to increased energy costs. This is mostly in the areas that us electricity for cooling. With the abundance of natural gas we have I see a large conversion from old oil based heating to natural gas.
These discussions usually get into flame wars where Roosh bans half the thread. I do not see why people keep bring ing up things that have nothing to do with chicks. However there really can not be much divide here since the Anglosphere in general seems to like to think BIG. In Canada people also want big things.
To imagine your self as becoming Arnold is stupid since:
1. you will most likely never come close.That makes you delusional.
2. most chicks do not like big muscle heads.
3. continental Europe values slimness ,not being BIG.
4. They have seen what thinking big means in USA in terms of eating. People never satisfied and feel the need to eat until obese.

The Euro's use their saved income to enjoy vacation time that they rightfully recieve. Personally I think anyone who works in US and agrees to a 2 week vacation is dumb.I had the foresight to choose a career where I had 6 weeks vacation and can retire in 20 years or earlier if I get a minor injury.

[lush1]

I hate the conformist scandinavian attitude and love the American 'can do' spirit. In Britain people are so cynical and negative I find the American attitude to be very refreshing.

[Rex]

(01-07-2013 02:57 PM)lush1 Wrote:  

I hate the conformist scandinavian attitude and love the American 'can do' spirit. In Britain people are so cynical and negative I find the American attitude to be very refreshing.

What you call cynicism others would call a healthy dose of realism.

[speakeasy]

If Scandinavians are so de-motivated and dependent on cradle-to-grave government, how do they manage to have such a high standard of living? Who is producing their affluence??

(01-07-2013 02:42 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

The Euro's use their saved income to enjoy vacation time that they rightfully recieve. Personally I think anyone who works in US and agrees to a 2 week vacation is dumb.I had the foresight to choose a career where I had 6 weeks vacation and can retire in 20 years or earlier if I get a minor injury.

Teacher?

[lush1]

(01-07-2013 03:14 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

If Scandinavians are so de-motivated and dependent on cradle-to-grave government, how do they manage to have such a high standard of living? Who is producing their affluence??

They are, by paying insanely high taxes. (not saying thats a bad thing, just saying)

[lush1]

(01-07-2013 03:13 PM)Rex Wrote:  

(01-07-2013 02:57 PM)lush1 Wrote:  

I hate the conformist scandinavian attitude and love the American 'can do' spirit. In Britain people are so cynical and negative I find the American attitude to be very refreshing.

What you call cynicism others would call a healthy dose of realism.

Ha, yes, I think somewhere between the two can be found a happy medium.

[jimukr104]

(01-07-2013 03:14 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

If Scandinavians are so de-motivated and dependent on cradle-to-grave government, how do they manage to have such a high standard of living? Who is producing their affluence??

(01-07-2013 02:42 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

The Euro's use their saved income to enjoy vacation time that they rightfully recieve. Personally I think anyone who works in US and agrees to a 2 week vacation is dumb.I had the foresight to choose a career where I had 6 weeks vacation and can retire in 20 years or earlier if I get a minor injury.

Teacher?

COP

[Rex]

(01-07-2013 03:23 PM)lush1 Wrote:  

Ha, yes, I think somewhere between the two can be found a happy medium.

Agreed. Ambition tempered, and guided, by a thoughtful realism. Can't go wrong with that.

[Rex]

(01-07-2013 03:29 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

COP

[Vicious]

How do we measure and quantify this US go-getter attitude? IF this truly is so prevalent among the general populace then surely there must be some national metric where this shows?

Frankly, I haven't found one. I KNOW it resides in many Americans, crafty individuals that I have admired and the system that have allowed them to cultivate their ambitions. Especially among those on this board this trait is common. If I go to Manhattan you can't throw a stone without hitting half a dozen people that have realized more in their years than ten other men. But is this present as a general rule to the degree that it really drives the nation in any one (or more) areas? I don't see it.