[Valnardan]

Ok, so I have a situation, and no one I know is in any position to give me advice. I've been married for the last 4 and a half years, and I'm now about to go through a divorce. I'm kind of excited about it for several reasons that I won't go into, but I have some things that I need to figure out.
First of all, my wife convinced me to do some extacy with her back when I was in the Navy and I got caught and kicked out. Since then I've been working dead end food service jobs to pay the bills. However, now that I'm about to be on my own I won't be able to afford to pay those bills. I have a pretty steep child support payment every month. I have no college education, and I've never had a job that pays really well. I'm about to move back to my hometown in TX and I'll be staying with my parents for a bit. (Which sucks, I'm about to be 28....) Anyway, I have to find a way to get a better income so I can get back out on my own. I'm not the type of guy that can pull off getting pussy while living with his parents.
So I guess the point of this long winded post is this: Does anyone have any ideas that will not necessarily make me rich or anything, but get me at least back to the point that I can be independent? And also, this belongs in a different forum group, but after having been married for so long, I have zero game. I feel like that loser old man that ends up alone for the rest of his life. I never want to be in a serious relationship again, but I still have needs to satisfy. How do I go from zero to... well anything more than zero game at 28? Thanks for any advice in advance.

[Roosh]

Quote:

How do I go from zero to... well anything more than zero game at 28? Thanks for any advice in advance

Just like every other guy does it... study a system and do the approaches. There's no secret. Check out the welcome thread in the Girls forum.

[Valnardan]

Yeah, I've spent a lot of time reading a lot of things on this forum and it all seems like great information. It all goes against who I am, so it's going to be hard. I'm the nice guy, and I know better than anyone how INeffective it is. I always end up being the good friend with no benefits.
I posted here though because I'm more concerned with my financial well being than anything. After reading a LOT of the threads in the money forum I think I have a plan now. I'm very skilled with computers, and I think I could get a pretty good computer service and repair business up and running. The information I've found here has pointed me in the right direction I think. I read a post about ebooks I think it was, and someone there posted what things are involved in starting a business, and that has given me a jumping off point to do my own research I think.
Anyway, this is a great forum you have going here Roosh, and when I am financially stable again, I'll likely buy at least Bang, and if I get to where I'm really doing well and can afford to travel I'll get A Dead Parrot in Paraguay. Keep up the great advice, and when I have success stories to tell from using your tips, I'll be sure to share them for you.

[Giovonny]

(04-22-2010 01:24 PM)Valnardan Wrote:  

It all goes against who I am, so it's going to be hard. I'm the nice guy, and I know better than anyone how INeffective it is. I always end up being the good friend with no benefits.

I think this whole "nice guy" vs. "bad boy" is really misunderstood.

Everyone thinks being a "nice guy" is a bad idea. Why???

Aren't the greatest playboys generally "nice" to girls? I can't think of any famous womanizers who are consistently mean to women.

Start treating girls bad and see how far that gets you...

Sure, if she grew up without a father/was abused and mistreated/grew up around violence and dysfuntion...then yes its very possible that she will respond more to being treated bad then being treated good. (This is usually an unhealthy "issue" for her)

If the girl has any self respect/esteem, i think its a better idea to treat her good. Of course some playful teasing and "negging" is always neccasary.

But if you take a "respectable" girl and treat her like shit. She will probably just think you are an asshole and she'll call me cause i make her laugh and treat her the way SHE THINKS SHE DESERVES TO TREATED.

Thats really the whole key. TREAT THEM THE WAY THEY WANT TO BE TREATED.

If i know a girl has low self worth, i will treat her bad, cause i know it will work. But after doing that for years I started to feel bad about it, cause i knew i was just taking advantage of the fact that she was abused as a child, and really i was just taking advantage of her and making her even more damaged in the long run.

Of course there are exceptions to every rule.

Nice guys get alot of pussy. You just gotta be a strong "nice guy".

[UgSlayer]

Dude, you're 28. Think of it as a new start. You still have more than half your life ahead of you. Start thinking of the possibilities, rather than thinking of your imagined limitations. Maybe start looking into going to school. Start with community college, since it's cheaper and less demanding, and transfer. It's not easy, but nothing that is worth it really is.

I step off my soapbox now.

[EduardoCruz]

Get your life/health or property/casulty insurance license. Its a week class and youll def. get a job. You will for sure make for than any $10/hour job. If your the social type that cant sit still like me, go life and health wich requires prosepecting and running apts in the field. If you like the desk/office gig, go property with a agency like Allstate or Statefarm. I have no eduacation either and I do well. Or go pull a Tony Montana and sell a bird. Good luck bra.

Eduardo

[Vacancier Permanent]

Valnardan,
Get a job that pays the bill for now, one that isn't too demanding nor too stressful. In the meantime, learn everything you can about online marketing. Give yourself 1-2 years to learn the basics and have a solid foundation. In the meantime, build yourself something on the side slowly but surely and within a year or so, you'll start earning your absolute freedom (that is making as much if not more from your online bizz than from your job and you can easily quit forever your job at that time. Best place on the net in the world to learn about internet marketing is the Warrior Forum. http://www.warriorforum.com
Spend a lot of time reading the topics/conversation there, ask plenty of questions. This will be the best education you can give yourself when it comes to learning the ropes of online marketing.

Hope this help.

[GermanDude]

I totally agree with Giovonny,

women aren't attracted to bad boys because they're bad to them.

they go for bad boys, because being a bad boy and being masculine/a "man" often overlaps.

I believe most women would prefer a nice guy who's masculine.

Maybe masculine could simply be replaced by "being a Man" or "confident"?

[AlphaQup2nite]

The only advice i can give is get a skill, and work hard on it, in your free time. That combined with great networking skills gets you jobs quicker then anything. The most important thing is to work hard at no matter what you do, and learn as much as you can about the business. Even waiting tables gives you a better sense of how to deal with people, and what makes up good service. Fast food teaches you proper time allocation. People notice, and make breaks for you.

When i first left HS, in taiwan, i can back stateside with 0 work experience that i could put on a resume (all my previous jobs were private tutoring jobs/ writing papers and shit for rich classmates) I immediately got a fast food job, and stuck it out for a year. Could have gotten into management, but why really wants to manage fast food? Anyways i hated it, but ive always had a passion for movies, so i used to chill a lot locally at the local blockbuster, talk to the employees, and eventually dropping that i would be interested in working there. A few months later i get a job there, with the manager there calling me up before he even looked at the applications, and within a years time (i had moved to another state during this time and BBV sent me to a new store) i had been promoted 4 times to having my own store. (i hated it since i didn't know what corporate management meant at the time) All during this time, i did my best to practice my mandarin Chinese that i learned in HS, but really didn't get much of a chance. Anyways, Fast forward to me moving to china as a uni student. Hated uni here, but loved going to bars (i left the states b4 i was 21, so i hadn't seen the inside of a bar) Anyways, since i spoke basic Chinese, i spent most of my time at bars chatting up people, mainly people who looked like they were successful and business oriented, as opposed to only the hot girls and the party guys. I meet a guy who asks me what i wanted to do, and i said work in a bar. The next day he calls me up and says his friends need a bar manager. Boom. Every other job i have gotten in china has only had increasing pay, prestige, and opportunity, and i have only filled out two applications in my life.
To date, i have been
An English teacher without any sort of degree in three cities.
The manager of a popular western hang out bar.
An untrained DJ at a somewhat decent night club.
A product broker for large shipments.
Quality Control for an American plastics manufacturer.
Lifestyle Coach
Product Manager overseeing the Chinese market for German Surgical Instruments.

And i have had numerous other job offers such as restaurant manager, College prof for English majors, help starting up a school, foreign trade advice etc.

And i have never, i repeat, never, had any sort of formal training for any of these. all my jobs have offered to train me and pay me. Who needs university? I never liked the idea of someone teaching you theory on how business works for a price, when i can get paid to learn the practical side.

The point of the matter is, make the best of what you got. I still remember the days when 80 hour weeks were a norm for me, but i took a lot out of it, asking questions about how things work and such, taking promotions/opportunities as they showed up. Then combine it with good networking. No one likes to talk about it, but everywhere in the world, if people like you, and you make good impressions, you will get what you want over people who are better qualified on paper. China has the term Guangxi, which literally means relationship. Its used to sum up this kind of thing. The more you network, the more magic happens, but you need to choose your groups carefully.

Getting a good job is maybe a little bit of luck, but i still believe you make you're own luck. So take what you can get when you have it, and take away the best of it, get other people to pay you to learn things, anything from how to properly season a burger to the pros and cons of ceramic coating on a minimally invasive set of scissors. Always be on the look out for new information, and ask a shit load of questions. Take the initiative, and always give your full to whatever. People notice this, since almost no one does these things anymore, and they will give you a hand up. And as you rise in the ranks, you will notice yourself doing the same to those you notice these traits in.

TL;DR
Make yourself an attractive employee, and put yourself in the situations where it is possible for you to rub elbows with people who can get you going in the right direction. Always be on the look out for a situation to talk to someone. Everyone has something you can learn from, and most will be able to help you reach your goals, provided you are interesting enough. Luck is putting yourself out there and doing things that other people don't, not some blind goddess who kicks people on a whim.

Plus a person with these qualities is much more attractive to the ladies.

[Valnardan]

Lots of good advice in all areas here. I hope I have some success to share with everyone soon. It will be about a month before I move to Texas from here in Kansas, but I can research things from anywhere. Thanks for the tips, everyone.

[Valnardan]

Wow, Alpha, you and I must have been replying at the same time. Your story about going to China is a huge inspiration to me. When I was in the Navy I learned quite a bit of Mandarin at the Defense Language Institute. I didn't end up working in the linguistics field, but I've still retained a lot of the language. I've always wondered what it would take to go to China, and how big of a risk it would be. I would love to hear some more about that.

[AlphaQup2nite]

(04-23-2010 01:28 AM)Valnardan Wrote:  

Wow, Alpha, you and I must have been replying at the same time. Your story about going to China is a huge inspiration to me. When I was in the Navy I learned quite a bit of Mandarin at the Defense Language Institute. I didn't end up working in the linguistics field, but I've still retained a lot of the language. I've always wondered what it would take to go to China, and how big of a risk it would be. I would love to hear some more about that.

If you want to make the jump over here, i recommend it be fast. More and more Chinese people are coming back with degrees from abroad, and are from rich families who insist they work, so they take jobs, and don't care about the pay. English field is getting more and more regulated, so unless the school has good guangxi they are usually limited to college degrees (tons do have so its not that much of an issue yet) But there are still many many opportunities, as foreigners like the hire non foreigners since we tend to be more self motivated and problem solvers then the locals. But it will take some time. I lived off my savings for the first 3 months, then got my first job here, without really even looking. But then this was me going out to bars every night of the week where i knew foreigners hang out. Of course its a gamble, but i doubt im more lucky than anyone else. I just make opportunities for myself then the average person. If you have any specific questions in mind, pm me and ill answer them to the best of my ability, as i dont really want to sidetrack another topic into a china discussion.

[Kona]

Hey brother,

I'd assume your discharge was OTH, but are you sure it's permanent?

Maybe you could get some kind of waiver and get back into the Navy, or another branch.

The child support might make that a really bad idea financially, but have you thought about that?

Just my two cents but either way, hang in there brah.

Aloha!

[The_CEO]

(04-23-2010 01:28 AM)Valnardan Wrote:  

Wow, Alpha, you and I must have been replying at the same time. Your story about going to China is a huge inspiration to me. When I was in the Navy I learned quite a bit of Mandarin at the Defense Language Institute. I didn't end up working in the linguistics field, but I've still retained a lot of the language. I've always wondered what it would take to go to China, and how big of a risk it would be. I would love to hear some more about that.

you know mandarin??? this is a key skill set that you should be able monetize

[weblinks]

Excellent thread. Keep up the suggestions.

I do want to warn everybody to avoid China. China is changing fast, but it is still a 3rd world
Communist dump. Cheating, rudeness, filth, and bad driving is common in China. Honestly, would you want to live in a place where websites are blocked, baby girls are aborted, kids pee on the floor of stores, no one waits in line, counterfeiting is rampant, freedom of religion/speech are banned, there is no democracy, and dogs are eaten? Hepatitis is epidemic there:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=2...refer=home

China is about to implode, too:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/08/busine...hanos.html

Believe it or not, but the economies in the USA, Australia, and Canada are predicted to be the fastest growing developed countries this year.

http://www.property-investing.org/world-economy.html

[Valnardan]

(04-23-2010 02:33 AM)toddh Wrote:  

you know mandarin??? this is a key skill set that you should be able monetize

Well, in order for me to be able to market my language ability, I would still have to invest quite a bit of time studying to achieve fluency. The military course is 16 months, and that was in 2001. To say that I'm rusty would be quite the understatement. I'm not ruling it out, as anything worth doing takes time. Great suggestions from all, by the way. I've looked into the emarketing thing, and I think it's something I could do. I'm extremely computer savvy, and I've always been one of the more intelligent people among my peers. There is a lot to learn, but I think I can handle it. I also liked the insurance idea, though that world would be a bit foreign to me. Thanks to everyone for the great ideas. With support from a community like this I feel like things are going to be ok, and confidence goes a long way no matter what you're doing.

[hydrogonian]

Given your options, I think the fastest and best non-college degree option is to either go into a union trade (electrician, plumber, or HVAC are best, imo) or apply to a government or civil service job. Personally, I'd go government. With the economy going the way it has been, and the decline of labor conditions, I think government jobs are a no brainer in terms of benefits, pay and security. Check out the job sites for Local, State and Federal.

If you are in a big city look into becoming a fireman. Its a bit of a process, but fireman where I live make six figures with overtime, and a pension. There is a forum for fireman called firehouse.com or something like that. Check that out. Although fireman in smaller municipalities and rural areas don't make much at all. Move west, east, or to a big city for pay.

Federal employees can retire after 20 years with a pension. Look into what you might be qualified for, then hire a professional resume writer that specializes in Federal resumes. It would be completely worth it of you really want the job.

The state and local jobs will likely require a civil service test. Nothing to lose by taking it.

With your child support payment obligations, I think that a job abroad is unrealistic at this point; for employment security, immediate need and pay reasons. Yeah, you could land a job that would cover what you require, but its too much of a low probability gamble and would likely require a lot of hustle without a degree.

[hydrogonian]

(04-22-2010 03:01 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

(04-22-2010 01:24 PM)Valnardan Wrote:  

It all goes against who I am, so it's going to be hard. I'm the nice guy, and I know better than anyone how INeffective it is. I always end up being the good friend with no benefits.

I think this whole "nice guy" vs. "bad boy" is really misunderstood.

Everyone thinks being a "nice guy" is a bad idea. Why???

Aren't the greatest playboys generally "nice" to girls? I can't think of any famous womanizers who are consistently mean to women.

Start treating girls bad and see how far that gets you...

Sure, if she grew up without a father/was abused and mistreated/grew up around violence and dysfuntion...then yes its very possible that she will respond more to being treated bad then being treated good. (This is usually an unhealthy "issue" for her)

If the girl has any self respect/esteem, i think its a better idea to treat her good. Of course some playful teasing and "negging" is always neccasary.

But if you take a "respectable" girl and treat her like shit. She will probably just think you are an asshole and she'll call me cause i make her laugh and treat her the way SHE THINKS SHE DESERVES TO TREATED.

Thats really the whole key. TREAT THEM THE WAY THEY WANT TO BE TREATED.

If i know a girl has low self worth, i will treat her bad, cause i know it will work. But after doing that for years I started to feel bad about it, cause i knew i was just taking advantage of the fact that she was abused as a child, and really i was just taking advantage of her and making her even more damaged in the long run.

Of course there are exceptions to every rule.

Nice guys get alot of pussy. You just gotta be a strong "nice guy".

I agree 100% with all of this.

For obvious reasons, no normal woman (not emotionally damaged, immature, or insecure) will stick with an emotionally abusive guy.

However, there are lots of emotionally damaged / immature / insecure women. Therefore, guys get confused about what works on high quality women.

However, for all women, you have to show them that you can be strong and that you have the emotional capacity to gently but firmly put her in her place if truly necessary (when she misbehaves or otherwise acts bratty/spoiled).

In essence, that you aren't a doormat, that you insist on leading and setting the tone in the relationship, and that she can't get away with bad behavior do to the fact that she has a vagina and is attractive.

Once you take that away from her, she will respect you.

Its more important to be consistent in your leadership, and not fold to her bratty attempts at manipulation, then it is to have some type of mean / dickish outburst that tries to get her to mold to your expectations in one shot.

Just keep reiterating your expectations in a firm but non-negative tone, even lighthearted whenever possible, and you will achieve the desired affect.

The only downside to this is that they may not take you as seriously at first, because many women are only used to the two extremes of behavior (the doormat and the abusive boyfriend), but they will ultimately see you as a higher quality guy that can effectively lead / dominate in the way that they want, without doing it in a emotionally fucked up and dysfunctional way. If you are good, you can read her responses and adjust how ‘mean’ you need to be by her reaction. After a while you can train her to respond to a very nice form of leadership, even if she expects and is used to mean guys.

In the terms of transactional psychology, this form of well adjusted leadership is informally referred to as "I'm OK, your OK".
Dysfunctional leadership is "I'm OK, Your not OK".
Doormat behavior is "I'm not OK. Your OK."
Complete social dysfunction would be "I'm not Ok. Your not OK".
Read "Prometheus Rising" by Robert Anton Wilson for a great / entertaining read on all of this.

Basically, you take her off of her pedestal that she has been put on by other, lesser men (doormats). Be nice, don't be mean about it or otherwise give off a negative vibe, but be firm and lead.

Once you do that, and she knows that you aren't a doormat, then feel free to treat her as nicely as you feel compelled to. Compliments, dinners, tell her you love her, whatever..It doesn't matter...It will all lead to her becoming emotionally closer to you.

However, due to how pussy and retarded most guys are these days in their approach to women, you almost always MUST be sexually active with her, and she must know that you aren't sexually needy, before you can lay it on thick. Women almost always otherwise assume that you are trading "niceness" for access to sex. This is because that is what most guys do. When they assume this, it gives women unnecessary power, and the gesture doesn't have the same psychological affect. You don't want that.

Its unfortunate, but you are combating the beta behavior of other men that she is used to, and is now defensive of.

Also, know when to break the rules.
If she truly behaves in a very bad way, like if she's drunk and publicly demeaning herself and by association, you, then its time to bring down the figurative pimp hand.

However, I do find it necessary to pepper in some 'mean' / cocky comments sometimes to keep women in the direction that you want them to head. I joke around so much in a cocky / funny way that most of the time she doesn't know if I'm serious or not, but the message gets sent. Thats the exact 'mix' that I want. I get to be mean-ish, and use some minor psychological tricks, without having to do it in a way that she interprets as being truly dickish. She's used to combating me in a joking way, that she doesn't feel bad, and isn't surprised, when I get a little bit direct / mean.

For instance, I find that most of the "directing" after while, with most women, comes in trying to control their eating habits. Even hot women will tend to let their weight get away from them after a while. Its almost as if women have no self awareness when it comes to food. I have found this to be near universal behavior in women over 25. Therefore, keeping them insecure is a relatively harmless way of keeping them on track with their weight.

In that instance its ‘meaness’ for the greater good. Meaning that I’ll be more likely to stay with her.

The great thing about girls that don't respond to a nicer form of leadership, is that if you go cold and act like they are too much trouble for you (which they are), then that is usually enough to bring them around, respond to you and to start reforming their behavior to meet your expectations.

[weblinks]

You guys are founts of knowledge. Any other good psychology books like "Prometheus Rising"? I
have my way of controlling women, but I am open to other methods.

[AlphaQup2nite]

(04-23-2010 11:41 AM)weblinks Wrote:  

Excellent thread. Keep up the suggestions.

I do want to warn everybody to avoid China. China is changing fast, but it is still a 3rd world
Communist dump. Cheating, rudeness, filth, and bad driving is common in China. Honestly, would you want to live in a place where websites are blocked, baby girls are aborted, kids pee on the floor of stores, no one waits in line, counterfeiting is rampant, freedom of religion/speech are banned, there is no democracy, and dogs are eaten? China is about to implode, too:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/08/busine...hanos.html

Believe it or not, but the economies in the USA, Australia, and Canada are predicted to be the fastest growing developed countries this year.

http://www.property-investing.org/world-economy.html

You can read the hype and follow the propaganda, but china is also where most of your shit you are wearing is made. There is money here. Calling china third world based off the rural areas is totally skewing the view. American could be viewed as third world if you wanna look at only redneck tornado trap parks.

Just because the chinese model doesnt agree with your ideals doesnt mean it doesnt work. Sure there are issues, everywhere has them, but its this total one side anti-Chinese mantra chanting that people who have never lived here keep spouting. If you dont like it, thats fine. Its not cool to go bashing on other cultures. And it seems that there is quite alot of interest in in china on these forums. I just hope opinions like yours dont about nearly as much in the western world as they did when i went back. One of the biggest reasons i left was unfounded racism, bigotry and propaganda.\n
Note: im not asking people to be PC, i hate the whole PC movement. I just want people to you know, do their own reasearch.

[weblinks]

I know what I am talking about. I have been to China. Even the poorest Americans have used dental floss, mouthwash, deodorant, perfume, cologne, jewelry, owns a TV, have played with toys, owns a camera, used a lawnmower, has running water and electricity, and probably even has a microwave and a car. Most Chinese
haven't.

I really think people from developed countries would just be more comfortable in places like Japan, New Zealand, or Europe. China is too much of a culture shock.