[Divorco]

Traditionally (in real life), the person who does the asking does the paying. This is usually the man. Online date protocol is a more ambiguous.

Of course womens' self-entitled advice is "the man always pays". This can be a mistake, because women have contempt for men who are too compliant. On the other hand, they may think a guy is cheap if he splits the check. It's a no-win situation.

It's all about attitude. It must be smooth, but also congruent. I tried furtively paying the check when the woman went to the bathroom. Some bitches would not even thank me and then cut contact. In these cases, paying for rude dates just triggers their cognitive dissonance, and makes them rationalize that you must be a loser who is trying to buy their affection. I suggest tossing in enough cash and then handing them the check. If you must pay, reach for the check, say you will pay, and look them in the eye for acknowledgement. If the woman is sweet and feminine then I'll pay without hesitation. Otherwise I'll use it as an ideal opportunity to show I don't seek to buy her approval.

[el mechanico]

Is this date on Skype or in person?

[saturn]

I think the man always pays for the first dates

Anything else looks cheap/lame

Can you imagine any of our heros, steve mcqueen, bond, clooney, dare I say G manifesto trying to split the cheque.

Its just not cool...

[theIVth]

It's petty to try to make a woman pay. Don't be petty man...be a boss.

Women like men that lead and that are decisive. Qualities that they generally don't have by nature. You look broke, petty and just generally weak trying to make a woman split a check or pay altogether.

Not saying that you should let a woman just mess over you or whatever, but don't stoop to the level of looking broke and petty man.

[Therapsid]

It doesn't really matter. Let's be real. It sucks for guys to hear, but there are tons of cases of alpha broke guys having their way paid by girls. Not to mention dudes with no valid licenses being chauffeured around by chicks who cheated on their beta stable middle class boyfriends.

[theIVth]

Your not "alpha" if your broke and only busted and dusty bitches can be conned and hustled by a broke lame.

The optimal position to be in is to be on top of all your shit: money wise, body wise and mentally.

A real top notch chick is not gone be used to going into her purse for some guy cause he's "cute" or whatever.

(12-23-2012 09:50 PM)Therapsid Wrote:  

It doesn't really matter. Let's be real. It sucks for guys to hear, but there are tons of cases of alpha broke guys having their way paid by girls. Not to mention dudes with no valid licenses being chauffeured around by chicks who cheated on their beta stable middle class boyfriends.

[Moma]

Regarding paying the cheque, it really depends because today's market is different. Flake level is at an all time high and some lizards are out to exploit the chivalry of men. In Toronto, I tended not to pay the full unless it was a cheap date (1.49 for a tea). Expensive dates (20 bucks) would get the dutch treatment (going double).

Nothing worse than going on a date with a lizard and forking out coins and not even getting an enjoyable experience out of it.

I guess it is really down to the individual to vet for better quality lizards but sometimes, you have to eat whatever is around you.

[thegmanifesto]

(12-23-2012 10:09 PM)Moma Wrote:  

Expensive dates (20 bucks) would get the dutch treatment (going double).

Seriously, you would ask her for $10?

Quote:

Expensive dates (20 bucks)

Classic. That is one cocktail.

That would be funny if you split the cocktail with her.

Quote:

Nothing worse than going on a date with a lizard and forking out coins and not even getting an enjoyable experience out of it.

Why would you go on a date with a girl if you didn't think it had a very high probability of being enjoyable?

The money doesn't matter to me at all. A few hundred bucks either way has no bearing on my life.

But you have to screen the girls from the time it takes out of your life.

That is where the true cost lies.

[Duke Castile]

I wouldn't pay for a girl that I didn't want to see again. Fuck her. You white knights up there do what you want, the day I pay for some girl that acts like she's doing me a favor by sitting there having a drink with me is the day I stop getting laid.

None of my "heros" would put up with some disrespectful hamster either.

[thegmanifesto]

(12-23-2012 10:22 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

I wouldn't pay for a girl that I didn't want to see again. Fuck her. You white knights up there do what you want, the day I pay for some girl that acts like she's doing me a favor by sitting there having a drink with me is the day I stop getting laid.

None of my "heros" would put up with some disrespectful hamster either.

But why would you go out on a date with a girl "that acts like she's doing me a favor by sitting there having a drink"?

Again, time is the true cost here.

Not the price of a cocktail.

[Duke Castile]

(12-23-2012 10:25 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(12-23-2012 10:22 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

I wouldn't pay for a girl that I didn't want to see again. Fuck her. You white knights up there do what you want, the day I pay for some girl that acts like she's doing me a favor by sitting there having a drink with me is the day I stop getting laid.

None of my "heros" would put up with some disrespectful hamster either.

But why would you go out on a date with a girl "that acts like she's doing me a favor by sitting there having a drink"?

Again, time is the true cost here.

Not the price of a cocktail.

I wouldn't knowingly do it. I met this girl once for our second date, she was 20-30 minutes later than me (I was the standard 10-15) She sending me texts like "I can't wait to see you" and so forth. I'm thinking "cool, she's going to feel guilty and be extra sweet".

She shows up in a bitchy mood, starts complaining about her day, complaining about her brother for making her late, complaining about her drink.

I just listened to this quietly, finished my beer, laid 10 bucks on the bar and said "I've got to be going, take care."

She just looked at me "Are you serious??"

"As a heart attack"

She made this scoffing noise and I walked out.

She started texting me shit like "Some man you are leaving a lady by herself!" and crap like that.

It's been a couple years since I had that kind of experience but it's happened, and when it does my "I don't put up with that bullshit" gameplan get's put into motion.

[thegmanifesto]

(12-23-2012 10:35 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

(12-23-2012 10:25 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(12-23-2012 10:22 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

I wouldn't pay for a girl that I didn't want to see again. Fuck her. You white knights up there do what you want, the day I pay for some girl that acts like she's doing me a favor by sitting there having a drink with me is the day I stop getting laid.

None of my "heros" would put up with some disrespectful hamster either.

But why would you go out on a date with a girl "that acts like she's doing me a favor by sitting there having a drink"?

Again, time is the true cost here.

Not the price of a cocktail.

I wouldn't knowingly do it. I met this girl once for our second date, she was 20-30 minutes later than me (I was the standard 10-15) She sending me texts like "I can't wait to see you" and so forth. I'm thinking "cool, she's going to feel guilty and be extra sweet".

She shows up in a bitchy mood, starts complaining about her day, complaining about her brother for making her late, complaining about her drink.

I just listened to this quietly, finished my beer, laid 10 bucks on the bar and said "I've got to be going, take care."

She just looked at me "Are you serious??"

"As a heart attack"

She made this scoffing noise and I walked out.

She started texting me shit like "Some man you are leaving a lady by herself!" and crap like that.

It's been a couple years since I had that kind of experience but it's happened, and when it does my "I don't put up with that bullshit" gameplan get's put into motion.

Gotcha.

Thankfully I can't even remember the last time something like that happened to me.

But yeah, I would have done the same thing you did.

[Christian McQueen]

There used to be 'never buy a girl drinks' theory in the Game world and I used to use that and it worked. However, when you are in college it's easier to get away with that.

Now I have no problem throwing some cash on the bar for a date but ONLY when the girl is appreciative. I NEVER buy girls a drink when in the club and I just met them. Big difference here.

I look at it as a good test too. If you're on a date and you pay for the first round, how does she respond? With a sweet 'thank you', or does she not even thank you and greedily starts to slurp down her drink? If she doesn't say 'thank you', that's a HUGE red flag to me. I will still bang her but WILL NOT ever take her out/spend $ on her again. This is a reflection on her character and upbringing.

Attitude and swagger when doing this is huge too. If you analyze the drink bill and hesitatingly hand over your credit card it sends a huge insecurity signal. Pay with CASH. Nothing says 'Boss' like tossing a $100 bill on the bar but casual and indifferent about it. I tend to use this move and it works for me. I don't act showy just confident.

[el mechanico]

Ok. Like I've said before...These bills should be overlooked like they are meaningless or in other words "grease the wheels" and I'm talking pre-sex.

The bill is paid when?

Answer: When you are going to the next place or to your place so why? Why would you want to mess that up??

On the cooler side of the pillow....

Stand off. Don't pay shit and demand car sex.

[thegmanifesto]

(12-23-2012 11:00 PM)McQueensPlayboyRules Wrote:  

There used to be 'never buy a girl drinks' theory in the Game world and I used to use that and it worked. However, when you are in college it's easier to get away with that.

I think you right.

This is why I have never understood the theory as it applies to me today. When I was 18? Sure.

But if you are hanging out in top venues with $15-20 drinks and you are infiltrating some girls who are hanging out with European tax dodgers with summer homes in Monaco, you don't really do a bunch of "No, you pay." Her: "No you pay". "No you pay." type stuff.

You just want to isolate the fly girl in heels and a dress over to the bar to Spit Game and swoop.

(12-23-2012 11:06 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

Answer: When you are going to the next place or to your place so why? Why would you want to mess that up??

I agree.

I know the cost of what I am getting into before I step foot out of the house.

There are enough hurdles and problems out of your control when you try and swoop girls.

The more you move up the Layer Cake of swooping, you don't let something you can control (ie the cost of a drink), get in your way.

Life is too short. You have to make these nights out pay dividends.

[Christian McQueen]

(12-23-2012 11:15 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(12-23-2012 11:00 PM)McQueensPlayboyRules Wrote:  

There used to be 'never buy a girl drinks' theory in the Game world and I used to use that and it worked. However, when you are in college it's easier to get away with that.

I think you right.

This is why I have never understood the theory as it applies to me today. When I was 18? Sure.

But if you are hanging out in top venues with $15-20 drinks and you are infiltrating some girls who are hanging out with European tax dodgers with summer homes in Monaco, you don't really do a bunch of "No, you pay." Her: "No you pay". "No you pay." type stuff.

You just want to isolate the fly girl in heels and a dress over to the bar to Spit Game and swoop.

(12-23-2012 11:06 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

Answer: When you are going to the next place or to your place so why? Why would you want to mess that up??

I agree.

I know the cost of what I am getting into before I step foot out of the house.

There are enough hurdles and problems out of your control when you try and swoop girls.

The more you move up the Layer Cake of swooping, you don't let something you can control (ie the cost of a drink), get in your way.

Life is too short. You have to make these nights out pay dividends.

"Life is too short. You have to make these nights out pay dividends."

Exactly. Also it causes your game to improve because who wants to go out and spend couple hundred and go home empty handed? In college it's easy to run Caveman Game and get away with it. Also, if you roll out suited up as I do around 80% of the time, then it definitely is incongruent with the image presented.

Observe the character Christian Troy in the show Nip/Tuck. His bar game is all suits and high end places. Obviously being good looking and a plastic surgeon will get you laid no matter what but his approach of being casual and boss like works. I've strived to game more high end girls and I will tell you for a damn fact a 9 in La will not tolerate paying for her own drinks.

It's not playing into the frame of a girl to pick up the bill it's pure exchange. You want sex with a top end model then buy the damn drinks. If you want a sloppy 5 then have her pay. When you're balls deep in a gorgeous woman though it's always worth having picked up the bill.

[Basil Ransom]

I take the path of least resistance. On a first date, bill comes. I pause for a second, see if she responds. They rarely do. I open it up, look at the bill, put my card in. If she offers to split, I say ok. If she doesn't, I pay it all.

[Ovid]

Clearly, context is everything. If she is a bitchy type and the circumstances would seem to indicate that paying would be a quick ticket to chump-status in her eyes, then it would be a bad idea. How many times does that happen, though? Most girls on a date proper are decidedly better prospects than some chick in a bar at 1am, who may be blowing you in 45 minutes, or may not even bother to thank you for the drink you just bought her before disappearing with her girlfriends. In the latter case, at least in the US, opening the wallet is usually an attraction-killer. In the former case, out on a date, it would probably help more often than it hurt. The prudent course of action would seem to be: pay unless you have good reason to believe that this particular chick will either react badly to it, or is a waste of time, in which case it makes sense to absent yourself from the interaction as expeditiously and with as little pecuniary losses as possible.

[thegmanifesto]

I think here is a rule of thumb:

The more low-end the bar, the higher the chance a girl isn't going to appreciate a drink.

I won't step foot in anything below a top venue, so it always strikes me funny about these stories of guys paying for a drink and then the girl runs off.

I can barely even picture that happening.

[Moma]

(12-23-2012 10:22 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

Why would you go on a date with a girl if you didn't think it had a very high probability of being enjoyable?

The money doesn't matter to me at all. A few hundred bucks either way has no bearing on my life.

But you have to screen the girls from the time it takes out of your life.

That is where the true cost lies.

G, I know what you are saying and you are absolutely right. My problem was in not screening lizards properly. I'm getting better at doing that and continuing to improve.

But yes, as a man, one should ideally take the lead. By doing so, we actually assert power subsconsciously. An Ethopian lizard I was trying to spread realised this and would NEVER let me pay for our dates. We went on three (I couldn't even get a kiss) and she ALWAYS covered the cost. When I tried to pay, she practically fought me to ensure that I didn't shell out anything.

[Divorco]

(12-24-2012 12:52 AM)Ovid Wrote:  

context is everything. If she is a bitchy type ... paying would be a quick ticket to chump-status in her eyes

Exactly. First, let's distinguish context. An online "date" might be more of a meeting. Indeed, the woman might have contacted me first, and hinted or suggested drinks. So the context may be ambiguous.

To exacerbate the situation, the woman might act like a typical D.C. "professional, independent, smart, sassy" bitch. She might previously flake or rearrange the schedule because she feels men should jump through hoops to respect her professional life. Meanwhile she laments the absence of "real men" among the emasculated betas who tolerate her bullshit.

Older, richer guys can easily afford drinks. But here is what poor young guys may not appreciate. Rewarding bad behavior can indeed signal low value and relegate you to chump status. She will rationalize that you are a loser who must pay for her time. In these cases you must look at her with the attitude "I respected you as a professional, so pay up like a professional. Contact me if you want to audition for a social role."

It can be an alpha move. You probably would not expect to buy a guy a drink on first meeting. Many women refuse to date a man who is too cheap to pay. So if the woman adopts a difficult attitude, then splitting the check clearly communicates that you don't care, especially if it is obvious you have the money. It says "I can easily pay, but feel you haven't earned it."

If you do pay, look the woman in the eye for thanks and acknowledgement. Getting disrespected as a chump is worse than getting dismissed as cheap.