[WestIndianArchie]

For those of you who've had software made for you, what was the process?
(Yes, I already know about e-lance and odesk)

Cash up front? Progress payments? Turnaround time?
Scammed? Idea ripped off?
Who owns the code?
End user support?
Easier to make non-mobile products?

WIA

[OldRich]

Hope this helps.

- Never ever hire Indian programmers. I know I'm throwing a whole country under the bus here since there are some good Indian programmers out there but the majority of the shitty ones ruined it for the good ones. You get what you pay for.

- Programmer reviews is not everything, in a lot of cases you can look at it as a negative. Why? because they are a company and have many many clients. Communication and code quality could be an issue since you're most likely dealing with a project manager. A lot could be lost in translation when there is a middle man. He just wants your money as soon as possible so he can go after another client. You have very little leeway here.

- Develop in workable chunks. Meaning that every time a programmer finishes a milestone. You can test it, use it as it intended. Even if the programmer leaves the project, your software is still a complete package that is just missing features.

- Have your developers comments on the codes so you're never hung out to dry in the cases that he leave the project.

- Cash upfront depends on how large a project is. Around $200, you'll need to deposit half. When it gets over $1000, you set up milestones of 3. You don't have to follow it exactly that, it's just a guideline. Never do 100% upfront payment. You need leverages.

- You never really "own" the codes even though that's what's agreed upon. but you should always own the software as a whole.

- Mobile development is still relatively new, development will be more expensive and harder.

I have never been scammed, but lost a lot of money figuring out what to do and not to do. It is not easy to successfully complete a relatively big software outsourcing unless you know how to program yourself. It's really a crap shoot at times. You need to know if the code is quality or not and to do that you need to learn how to program and by that time, you're likely to just code yourself.

Outsourcing can be great, but they are more ideal for small to medium projects.

[Dr. Howard]

Paid upon delivery, the guys seemed pretty normal but I also saw one guy ripping off ideas. They owned the code and were pretty cool about support.

[bface]

Could give you some tips from a programmers view, been freelancing for a while. Send me a pm with your skype if you have some questions. Cheers

[zwyjibo]

Yeah, ancillary to this post but related to what wiscanada said, get a good NDA and make them sign it. If they won't, then do not work with them.

[maccc]

(12-22-2012 02:22 AM)jdevoy Wrote:  

Yeah, ancillary to this post but related to what wiscanada said, get a good NDA and make them sign it. If they won't, then do not work with them.

Your NDA isn't worth shit if you're getting someone offshore to do it.

[zwyjibo]

(12-22-2012 03:52 AM)maccc Wrote:  

(12-22-2012 02:22 AM)jdevoy Wrote:  

Yeah, ancillary to this post but related to what wiscanada said, get a good NDA and make them sign it. If they won't, then do not work with them.

Your NDA isn't worth shit if you're getting someone offshore to do it.

Eh. Practically, yes; legally, maybe. I agree that it's better to work with someone in the US and easier to keep tabs on them, and worth the price difference on that basis alone.

[WestIndianArchie]

NDA's/non-competes are an awful business.

Even when clients have facially valid claims, you gotta litigate for it. Finding a plaintiff's atty who's gonna shoulder the costs till judgment is tough. Research, filing, motions, negotiations - and the person who fucked you over may be judgment proof (I.e. already broke and you can't blood from a stone)

All that to say nda's are typically false security for small business folks. Much like an LLC, but talking legal reality is another post altogether.

WIA

[WestIndianArchie]

Awesome reply. I'm printing this out

WIA

(12-21-2012 11:06 PM)OldRich Wrote:  

Hope this helps.

- Never ever hire Indian programmers. I know I'm throwing a whole country under the bus here since there are some good Indian programmers out there but the majority of the shitty ones ruined it for the good ones. You get what you pay for.

- Programmer reviews is not everything, in a lot of cases you can look at it as a negative. Why? because they are a company and have many many clients. Communication and code quality could be an issue since you're most likely dealing with a project manager. A lot could be lost in translation when there is a middle man. He just wants your money as soon as possible so he can go after another client. You have very little leeway here.

- Develop in workable chunks. Meaning that every time a programmer finishes a milestone. You can test it, use it as it intended. Even if the programmer leaves the project, your software is still a complete package that is just missing features.

- Have your developers comments on the codes so you're never hung out to dry in the cases that he leave the project.

- Cash upfront depends on how large a project is. Around $200, you'll need to deposit half. When it gets over $1000, you set up milestones of 3. You don't have to follow it exactly that, it's just a guideline. Never do 100% upfront payment. You need leverages.

- You never really "own" the codes even though that's what's agreed upon. but you should always own the software as a whole.

- Mobile development is still relatively new, development will be more expensive and harder.

I have never been scammed, but lost a lot of money figuring out what to do and not to do. It is not easy to successfully complete a relatively big software outsourcing unless you know how to program yourself. It's really a crap shoot at times. You need to know if the code is quality or not and to do that you need to learn how to program and by that time, you're likely to just code yourself.

Outsourcing can be great, but they are more ideal for small to medium projects.

[Sebastian]

what's the average cost for developing an app? $5k?

[OldRich]

(12-23-2012 04:48 AM)Sebastian Wrote:  

what's the average cost for developing an app? $5k?

You're gonna have to be more specific than that.

[iknowexactly]

Quote:
- You never really "own" the codes even though that's what's agreed upon. but you should always own the software as a whole.

As others have mentioned, this is technically untrue but practically true. I am a former professional programmer.

However, if the programmer is in the USA or perhaps Britain you may have more than even odds that he won't steal the idea. Why?

1) Psychologically, people have quite a bit of trouble accepting that someone else had a better idea than they have, and further psychological trouble ( at least in a developed country) of blatantly stealing someone's idea. In fact, even within organizations , there is what's called the "not invented here" syndrome, where freely accessible code developed elsewhere in an organization is ignored because the programmer's don't trust anyone else's work.

2) Most people in developed countries are basically honest. After seeing the Ukraine while living there, I realized by contrast trust is why developed countries are developed countries.
When everybody assumes everyone else is dishonest, you get civilization based on coercion, financial shitholes like Africa. Now of course this isn't always true. There's plenty of scammers in the USA, but if they are smart enough to be a competent programmer, they are less likely than average to be dishonest.

3)If the guy is in the USA he probably has accessible assets or income ( i.e. he is not judgment proof) he may be more wary of clearly ripping off your idea. Even if it's a 5% chance, he might build a codebase and a business, and then lose it.

4) There's a huge amount of work marketing a program even if you do finish it. Most programmers are the wrong personality type for that, they know it, and disdain sales as an intellectually inferior profession.

[iknowexactly]

(12-23-2012 11:58 AM)OldRich Wrote:  

(12-23-2012 04:48 AM)Sebastian Wrote:  

what's the average cost for developing an app? $5k?

You're gonna have to be more specific than that.

The Wall Street Journal once reported that the average percentage of programming projects that are never completed is 50%. Many times, a project isn't organized well ( why and how is a whole science unto itself) and you end up with a huge mass of incomprehensible spaghetti which doesn't work, and which no one can figure out how to fix.

Out of the ones that ARE completed, the average cost overrun is 100%.

It's why I quit programming. No one can ever understand why it takes so long, and therefore it's a thankless job unless you are in the elite ( I was never that good) and can simply demand huge amounts which they HAVE TO pay ( to keep a bank running for instance. )

[cibo]

(12-23-2012 12:35 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

(12-23-2012 11:58 AM)OldRich Wrote:  

(12-23-2012 04:48 AM)Sebastian Wrote:  

what's the average cost for developing an app? $5k?

You're gonna have to be more specific than that.

The Wall Street Journal once reported that the average percentage of programming projects that are never completed is 50%. Many times, a project isn't organized well ( why and how is a whole science unto itself) and you end up with a huge mass of incomprehensible spaghetti which doesn't work, and which no one can figure out how to fix.

Out of the ones that ARE completed, the average cost overrun is 100%.

It's why I quit programming. No one can ever understand why it takes so long, and therefore it's a thankless job unless you are in the elite ( I was never that good) and can simply demand huge amounts which they HAVE TO pay ( to keep a bank running for instance. )

It takes so long to complete a software project because:

1) Coding is about problem solving. Sometimes its just a tough problem to solve and what seemed like a straight forward problem has more layers than expected. This is especially true when the client asks for "a little change" that can completely fuck over a good amount of work you've done if it is incompatible with your problem solving strategy.


2) Poor inputs from the client. The client could be giving you bad designs, information not sent properly, not have the business processes in place, political support goes up and down, etc can end up completely blowing your dev timeline.

3) communication issues: somewhat point 2b, business people have a tendency to use jargon they don't know and think they're asking for product A when then mean product B. Then proceed to get upset when they get what they asked for and then time is spent fixing it. This is 4 times worse with Indians since many don't speak English well (and honestly 9 out of 10 times, kind of shitty at programing too). A good software dev can preempt the client and try to figure out what he actual needs and not the BS he thinks he wants. That's less likely to happen with Indians unfortunately.

4) The client has no fucking idea what he actually wants to do. This is my favorite one. The client asks for wizz bang program (or in my case analysis) but doesnt have a clear business goal in mind. You tell them its going to take time, money or just not feasible, clients then asks for something else. Mid-way through, he changes his mind. And then later, finds out that after a meeting that maybe it's better another way. So you're constantly changing to what is expected to be delivered and you WILL miss something because they've added 3 things in the last week in a email that's somewhere buried under a bunch of spam from the same person. Depending on the project you could tell them the terms are set so fuck you but sometimes you just have to deal with the whims of the client and blow the dev timeline.

[DoctaWho]

(12-21-2012 07:42 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

For those of you who've had software made for you, what was the process?
(Yes, I already know about e-lance and odesk)

Cash up front? Progress payments? Turnaround time?
Scammed? Idea ripped off?
Who owns the code?
End user support?
Easier to make non-mobile products?

WIA

Never pay 100% up front, at most 10% and then pay the additional cash based on milestones being met. Turnaround time depends on the product that you want and how many changes you want. Make sure how responsible the programmer is for resolving bugs is worked out ahead of time. I had an employer who hired a guy to write a CMS. It worked but was full of bugs and guess who had to do the debugging, me.

Don't worry about your idea being ripped off. Truthfully there is very little that is completely new these days. The most important thing is to get your product to market, get feedback and make changes accordingly.

Who owns the code is murky. Like others said an NDA will mean nothing if you outsource to people in other countries. If you have a certain idea you can try to patent it if it makes you feel better. Another strategy depending on how complex the project is would be compartmentalization. Hire a PM you trust and have them break up the work to sub-contractors.

End user support is where software gets tricky. If we are talking an app then bug fixes can be addressed in future releases. If you are offering saas then bugs need to be fixed asap to retain customers. Depending on the scope end user support can be easy or so complex it makes the project not worth doing.

How easy a product is to make depends on a lot of factors. Like someone else mentioned most projects never get finished, mainly because of things like scope creep. If you have a clear vision and a good team then making the product should go fairly smoothly.

My two biggest pieces of advice are to be as specific as possible about what you want and make sure to separate the design aspect from the programming aspect even if it means hiring more people.

If you are serious about getting some software made then make sure you know exactly what you want from the beginning. You should also contact bloggers who have had software made or check forums to get reputable suggestions for programmers. That guy in Russia may be cheap but his work might be shotty. I've done development work and am considering having an app created for me in the future so feel free to PM me if you need some advice.

[WestIndianArchie]

The designer does the "look and feel" of the software, and the programmer does the other heavy lifting.

In terms of usability, who does that typically fall to?

WIA

(12-23-2012 11:13 PM)DoctaWho Wrote:  

(12-21-2012 07:42 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

For those of you who've had software made for you, what was the process?
(Yes, I already know about e-lance and odesk)

Cash up front? Progress payments? Turnaround time?
Scammed? Idea ripped off?
Who owns the code?
End user support?
Easier to make non-mobile products?

WIA

Never pay 100% up front, at most 10% and then pay the additional cash based on milestones being met. Turnaround time depends on the product that you want and how many changes you want. Make sure how responsible the programmer is for resolving bugs is worked out ahead of time. I had an employer who hired a guy to write a CMS. It worked but was full of bugs and guess who had to do the debugging, me.

Don't worry about your idea being ripped off. Truthfully there is very little that is completely new these days. The most important thing is to get your product to market, get feedback and make changes accordingly.

Who owns the code is murky. Like others said an NDA will mean nothing if you outsource to people in other countries. If you have a certain idea you can try to patent it if it makes you feel better. Another strategy depending on how complex the project is would be compartmentalization. Hire a PM you trust and have them break up the work to sub-contractors.

End user support is where software gets tricky. If we are talking an app then bug fixes can be addressed in future releases. If you are offering saas then bugs need to be fixed asap to retain customers. Depending on the scope end user support can be easy or so complex it makes the project not worth doing.

How easy a product is to make depends on a lot of factors. Like someone else mentioned most projects never get finished, mainly because of things like scope creep. If you have a clear vision and a good team then making the product should go fairly smoothly.

My two biggest pieces of advice are to be as specific as possible about what you want and make sure to separate the design aspect from the programming aspect even if it means hiring more people.

If you are serious about getting some software made then make sure you know exactly what you want from the beginning. You should also contact bloggers who have had software made or check forums to get reputable suggestions for programmers. That guy in Russia may be cheap but his work might be shotty. I've done development work and am considering having an app created for me in the future so feel free to PM me if you need some advice.

[WestIndianArchie]

(12-23-2012 12:24 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

Quote:
- You never really "own" the codes even though that's what's agreed upon. but you should always own the software as a whole.

As others have mentioned, this is technically untrue but practically true. I am a former professional programmer.

However, if the programmer is in the USA or perhaps Britain you may have more than even odds that he won't steal the idea. Why?

1) Psychologically, people have quite a bit of trouble accepting that someone else had a better idea than they have, and further psychological trouble ( at least in a developed country) of blatantly stealing someone's idea. In fact, even within organizations , there is what's called the "not invented here" syndrome, where freely accessible code developed elsewhere in an organization is ignored because the programmer's don't trust anyone else's work.

2) Most people in developed countries are basically honest. After seeing the Ukraine while living there, I realized by contrast trust is why developed countries are developed countries.
When everybody assumes everyone else is dishonest, you get civilization based on coercion, financial shitholes like Africa. Now of course this isn't always true. There's plenty of scammers in the USA, but if they are smart enough to be a competent programmer, they are less likely than average to be dishonest.

3)If the guy is in the USA he probably has accessible assets or income ( i.e. he is not judgment proof) he may be more wary of clearly ripping off your idea. Even if it's a 5% chance, he might build a codebase and a business, and then lose it.

4) There's a huge amount of work marketing a program even if you do finish it. Most programmers are the wrong personality type for that, they know it, and disdain sales as an intellectually inferior profession.

good stuff.

As for marketing, I actually want to be on some Bain consulting steez. The software would give me a competitive edge, or at least solve problems that may just be particular to my needs.

Kinda like the guy who goes to the auto body repair shop and asks them to make a 2x4 into a wing for his trunk. Nobody wants that crap, except the guy paying for it.



WIA

[SirAntony]

For creative work avoid indian guys, they just don't get it. If you have the full concept detailed to the highest level possible (meaning how the functions are to be displayed, options, routines, fool proof functionality, etc) they are fine and cheap, but if you have the idea and the basic functionality, screw indians, it is a headache. They at the end cost more money and become a pain in the ass.

I have been using freelancer.com make then sign an nda and do a small contract that the software is yours always.

It works well, the guys I have been working with are from europe countries (france, germany, estonia, croatia, portugal) typically phd students that do this work during the weekend to make some money.