[WanderingSoul]

(12-18-2012 05:38 PM)GameTheory Wrote:  

(12-18-2012 12:09 PM)dog24 Wrote:  

Ive done bjj and muay thai, muay thai alone is enough to send an untrained men to the hospital, plus is a lot faster to get at a decent level. I would say that in 4 or 5 months you should be good to go for self defense purposes in a street fight, but in bjj it takes at least a year and a half.
We used to spar against MT guys before i started MT and it was really hard to take them down cause we weren't used to being hit, sure once you get them down the fight is over. But in the standup youre pretty much useless, once you start getting hit you have no guard, you turn your back, your only option is going for the legs it sucks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ0HCXRgU5g

I would suggest learn standup first then ground game, and like cellblock4 said you have to train 3-4 times a week and be consistent.
I wont talk about krav maga cause ive never done it.

i noticed that the MT fighter was able to win by applying the "plum" to the BJJ fighter's head several times.
i heard somewhere that the "plum" strike to the sternum was the most effective in all martial arts due to the fact that the heart gets tossed around in the ribcage and "skips a beat" so-to-speak, causing the recipient to get momentarily stunned.
any thoughts?

Muay Thai is awesome. Great sport to practice. For the record though, that isn't BJJ vs MT. Jose Pele Landi Jons, the winner, is a Jiu Jitsu black belt, vale tudo legend, and original Chute Boxe member. Dude is as bad as they come, and not a one dimensional fighter.

Any "style vs style" is going to come down to the Individual practitioner. Try which ever you like, and then pick the one, or two, you enjoy the most. There is no "best" style, though there are undoubtedly completely ineffective ones to avoid. Avoid anything which does not have full contact sparring, and anything that separates you after one strike or point is landed. Real fights don't stop after one kick or punch is landed.

[bojangles]

to be honest in a street fight I always thought being a proficient boxer was good enough, if not a good kick in the fucking nuts does the job effectively followed by knee to the face if you're feeling charitable

[LooTa]

(12-19-2012 04:18 AM)bojangles Wrote:  

to be honest in a street fight I always thought being a proficient boxer was good enough, if not a good kick in the fucking nuts does the job effectively followed by knee to the face if you're feeling charitable

Just being sober is enough to win most fights around my way.

[Praetor]

I can't decide between KM, BJJ or MT either, and there are centers for all three of those not far from where I live. I've been reading the Krav Maga forums and many other websites and I still can't get an idea of which martial art to dedicate to learning first. I wrestled and played football for years and I'd be in the "heavyweight" MMA category. I was originally looking into boxing gyms but MMA has really exploded in popularity as of late.

From the research I've done, I'm learning towards Muay Thai because the learning curve is faster and striking is always useful while keeping a distance from your opponent. I'm probably going to pass on Krav Maga because I don't see myself ever gouging out somebodies eyes or destroying their trachea, and you will be in some serious shit for doing that to someone even in self-defense (unless you are in a warzone and 99% of us are not).

[Beyond Borders]

(12-19-2012 09:20 AM)Praetor Wrote:  

I can't decide between KM, BJJ or MT either, and there are centers for all three of those not far from where I live. I've been reading the Krav Maga forums and many other websites and I still can't get an idea of which martial art to dedicate to learning first. I wrestled and played football for years and I'd be in the "heavyweight" MMA category. I was originally looking into boxing gyms but MMA has really exploded in popularity as of late.

From the research I've done, I'm learning towards Muay Thai because the learning curve is faster and striking is always useful while keeping a distance from your opponent. I'm probably going to pass on Krav Maga because I don't see myself ever gouging out somebodies eyes or destroying their trachea, and you will be in some serious shit for doing that to someone even in self-defense (unless you are in a warzone and 99% of us are not).

I'd say start with a striking art first, muay Thai specifically. You already know how to wrestle, and your throws can really come in handy if you get jumped by more than one person - throwing one or more of the guys down so you can deliver a kick or a few hard punches to their dome and focus on the other one(s), etc.

My wrestling strength and skills have always given me an advantage in fights, but I don't actually use them to roll around with anyone. That's foolish. Rather, the most important thing I learned from wrestling, besides knowing how to slam someone fast and quick, understanding basic leverage, etc, is knowing how to avoid getting taken to the ground.

Even with skills, my hardfast rule is to NEVER allow myself to fight on the ground with someone unless 1) I'm 100% positive I can easily manhandle them (wrestling and bjj competitions teach you that there's no way to count on that, but you'll typically know after you've grappled for a couple seconds), 2) No one is going to jump in, which is hard to ever be sure of...

Even if someone can likely slug me out, my objective is to get them to the ground but keep myself on my feet. Usually accomplished by acting like you're coming in to square off but faking them out and going for a double leg that ends with you instantly back on your feet or exchanging a few blows, closing the distance, and using a good throw.

Here's the thing. On your feet you have control and leverage. You can let go, back up, and end the fight if you think they're unlikely to come at you again. You can dodge, duck, and skip out of the way. You can maneuver around if you've got more people coming at you and do your best to make sure no one gets behind your back. And you can also so drop some mean bombs on someone you've got pinned down with one hand on their throat (their hands will be busy trying to remove yours from their throat, believe me).

And if the situation gets bad enough, you can even turn and run for the hills.

Many will say it's a dirty way to fight one-on-one (getting someone else on their back or ass while you're on your feet kneeing, kicking, and punching), but in my honest opinion fighting is dirty by default and way too dangerous, when on the street, to worry about keeping clean.

This is also why I never "step outside" with anyone. It's the stupidest thing I've ever heard - step outside like "gentlemen" into a situation with no rules and no guarantee it'll stop when it needs to? I'm either buying them a beer, shaking their hand, or swinging for the medal right then and there.

If you respect the danger of physical altercations and avoid fights but someone still attacks you or gets aggressive enough that attacking first becomes your best option, I personally feel you're in your right to get medieval on their ass. Just be careful and don't catch a case.

So again, you've got the basic wrestling, so work with that for now and learn some muay thai. Later on, you can work on your ground-fighting skills and/or learn some krav maga.

I don't agree that krav maga is too brutal for everyday Americans either, especially with all the retards going apeshit and shooting up public places, stabbing each other, etc. If two shitheads come at me on a dark corner and there's no one there to help my ass, you can bet I'm going to use the dirtiest tricks in the book to get out of the situation and then jam out of there before the cops arrive.

That said, even in a situation like that, you can probably get out of it just by knowing how to smash someone in the head a few times hard enough to make them want you to stop, preferably with a weapon, and then use their moment of hesitation, fear, or delirium as a chance to get your ass outta there.

Obviously the level of violence you use in a given situation is something you determine based on that situation. But never assume that not officially living in a warzone means you'll never end up in a war-like situation wishing you had a few war-like tricks up your sleeve.

[thegmanifesto]

(12-19-2012 03:05 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

This is also why I never "step outside" with anyone. It's the stupidest thing I ever heard. I'm either buying them a beer, shaking their hand, or swinging for the medal right then and there.

Great post.

Yeah, never "step outside" with anyone.

My DAD taught me at a young age never, meet someone "after school" to fight.

Either do it right then and there, or squash it right then and there.

None of this "meet me on the soccer field" at 3pm, crap.

You never know what is going to happen.

Quote:

important thing I learned from wrestling, besides knowing how to slam someone fast and quick, understanding basic leverage, etc, is knowing how to avoid getting taken to the ground.

Good point.

Wrestling is great for leverage and balance.

[Enigma]

I think people have the wrong idea of Krav Maga. My experience in it is limited but it's not all about "eye gouges" and "destroying someone's trachea". They do teach you those moves but for situations where your life is potentially in danger if you don't sit his ass down as swiftly as possible and extricate yourself from the situation.

But you actually train more in striking, reversals, and other moves to protect yourself in dangerous street fighting situations. They're all very good martial arts and I hope to train in all three but in my opinion Krav Maga is definitely the better form if you're going to pick only one for self-defense and protecting yourself in a wide variety of situations.

[Enigma]

By the way, the show "Human Weapon" is pretty interesting if you want to get a basic idea of different martial arts. I couldn't find one for BJJ though.

[WanderingSoul]

The thing is, there are three differnet situations here.

1. The one on one fight.

2. The typical, non deadly, bar fight

3. The life or death situation.

For 1, I go BJJ/wrestling all day.

For 2, boxing/MT because you don't want to be on the ground, and it isn't serious enough that you want to seriously injure someone.

For 3, I would say LEGITIMATE Krav Maga (which is hard to find due to so many Karate dojos offering a weak ass version).



However, any of the three is great, and much better than nothing. BJJ/wrestling isn't optimal for a 2 on 1 situation, but in that situation, I would be looking to dip someone on their head with a takedown, as opposed to taking them down and fighting on the ground. The strength/confidence/aggression built from grappling will give you a huge leg up in most fighting situations, even if it is multiple attackers, which isn't ideal for a grappler.

Boxing/MT are better for multiple attackers IMO, but the problem with that is, it is way easy to tripped/tackled onto the ground, and a striker will have a much harder time getting up to their feet than a grappler, who will have a lot of experience doing so.

Legit Krav Maga will make you as bad as they come. One of my training partners was a Krav Maga instructor in the Isralei Army. He said they spent 8 months on aggression training alone. This is something I think more people, including myself, could massively benefit from. I had to compete against him in a tournament once. I was more skilled than he was, and had been training about twice as long. Though we were both still white belts at the time, he was able to take me down and armbar me on sheer aggression. It was like a fucking raging bull coming at me. However, I have only been in one fight in my life where I would have used the more lethal tactics of Krav Maga. That is generally escalating the situation much farther than I would want.



I'll say it again, IMO, the best one to do is the one you enjoy most and will stick with. As a blue belt under a legit BJJ lineage with ~3 years of training, I'm far from invincible. It takes a long time to get good at any of these sports. A grappler could catch a wild punch to the jaw and get flattened. A boxer could get tackled to the ground and get pounded out. A Krav Maga guy could get suplexed onto his head by a big ass linebacker. No one will make you 100% safe from getting your ass kicked, but they sure as hell will give you a leg up on most of the competition out there.

[Wreckingball]

Brutality wise. The 3 are very brutal. Krav Maga was born in warzones. BJJ has a bit of "favela" in it. Muay thai needs no introduction.
I would say that BJJ is the most difficult. (i've never trained it though)
3-4 days a week would be good.


My opinions...
Go to a few free classes of each and choose what you enjoy more.

or

Start with MT for a few months. So you know how to kick properly, hard, fast. How to punch, use knees and elbows. And how to dodge. Also MT sparring is great. Even though you're just training getting a punch in the body produces a fear/adrenaline reaction to help you out in the real world.
After those few months start implementing KM in your training. Unless you were training muay boran, your brain by now should be hardwired not to kick someone in his jewels. I think that the best would be a mix of 2. So you know how to fight, and be mentally prepared to get punched or how to react when you're KOing, and how to protect yourself (AKA put that fucker in the ground ASAP).

KM has a problem. Unless you're proficient, it works like a recipe. And if your initial counterattack fails, you might not know what to do. with MT/bjj you know that your opponent might change technique and you can quickly adapt.

Wherever you go:
Make sure sparring is part of training. No sparring = pointless.

[66Scorpio]

Everyone seems to equate jujitsu with BJJ. The latter has been all in the rage for the last quarter century (to the day) but classic jujistu was the premier martial art for several centuries before that. It's just hard to find an instructor who can teach a good "stand up" jujitsu these days. Having said that:

1) Krav maga (unless you can find a classic JJ instructor)

2) Technically, I would opine BJJ, physically Muay Thai would be moreso.

3) It's a matter of perspective, life balance and personal goals. Three times a week is baseline if you are at all serious. Less than that and you are a tourist. More than that and it has to be in your top 5 for that time.

[JackinMelbourne]

(12-18-2012 08:27 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  

Whatever happened to JJJ, Japanese Jiu Jitsu? When I was younger I found a school that taught that and loved it. This was back when the only options were Karate, Tae Kwondo and Judo. We got good ol Japanese self discipline and respect beaten into us with the throws and holds of BJJ plus weapon fighting, strikes and horrible stuff like eyes, throat and groin strikes or just where to bite down if you found yourself in a certain lock. I techniques were effective when I got to use them but the discipline was probably the most effective part for molding my character and confidence. Do places teach that anymore?

That's a real good question. It got diluted and westernized into Blow Job Job.

Anyway, I wouldn't lock into a single martial art, sports or otherwise.

Be like Bruce Lee (real, not movie Bruce Lee). Try several styles in your life and pick out what compliments your attitude, body type, environment and general interests. Focus on the "hard" and energetic styles when you're young and get as flexible as you can while you can!

When you get older, focus on the softer arts especially since you can't, and SHOULDN'T train too hard if you value the physical condition of your body.

Most of all have fun and stay playful... experiment, question things - in your head, otherwise people get upset or confrontational and think you're attacking their ego rather than the ideas and techniques