[fortysix]

Hey guys

For everybody out there travelling and meeting expats abroad -- Have any of you met U.S. expats that work in corporations abroad? Like foreign branches of US companies or anything like that?

What type of positions do people generally work in?(anything outside of STEM would be most helpful to me, as I do not have a technical background).

What is the pay like? Ex-pat packages?

How did they get these positions?


I realize, of course, that developing a location independent income
is the way to go but unfortunately that's not something I have been able to do as of yet.

My background : dual citizenship - USA / Russia.
Education: J.D. & B.A. (humanities) in the US.

Turns out its not that easy to permanently relocate into a foreign office of a big US firm, and relocating abroad was not something I was interested in when I first began pursuing my degree.

Fluent in Russian / Spanish.

Thanks

7.

[MountainLion]

It will be very difficult with a humanities degree. Do you have any special skills the company can't find locally? Perhaps you should look into teaching English first? There are lots of reputable companies out there that want to hire Americans and the pay's not all that low.

[Wayout]

Seemingly an awesome thing to be you : fluent in 3 languages and can travel almost anywhere. Maybe find a job in Oil industry where Russian and Spanish can be useful. I am curious myself how to use this.

[lavidaloca]

Hes also in Law however. Law is fairly restrictive in movement and there are usually entrance barriers. For example if he wanted to come from the US to Canada to practice he'd be required to write a bunch of NCA exams and get accredited. Its more likely if he were to work in a business as opposed to firm work and not practice law in the corporation he works for in my opinion.

If your interested, Dubai seems to have a large interest in US and English trained attorneys along with good pay.

[fortysix]

(12-03-2012 03:12 AM)lavidaloca Wrote:  

Hes also in Law however. Law is fairly restrictive in movement and there are usually entrance barriers. For example if he wanted to come from the US to Canada to practice he'd be required to write a bunch of NCA exams and get accredited. Its more likely if he were to work in a business as opposed to firm work and not practice law in the corporation he works for in my opinion.

If your interested, Dubai seems to have a large interest in US and English trained attorneys along with good pay.

Thanks for your reply -

So a lot of attorneys working in foreign offices of U.S. firms generally concentrate in Capital Markets, International Arbitration, and some other types of corporate work (like writing contracts/deals). This work is generally limited to the English or sometimes the U.S. legal system because thats where most of the international arbitration / disputes are settled - for this reason, from my experience, U.S. attorneys can find work in foreign firm offices. The problem is that working abroad generally requires you to first get a job at a large international law firm which, unfortunately, is extremely competitive. Also, foreign offices are smaller and don't really have the capacity to train new associates so they expect you to be trained upon arrival. I wasn't able to secure a job at a big firm but this is something I may reconsider in the future as I acquire more experience.

However, at this point I am looking at options of leaving the U.S. to work abroad, and am not necessarily limiting myself to legal work ; Im definitively still thinking about working at a foreign firm office though.

[MountainLion]

Sorry I didn't notice your law degree! Perhaps a job in an oil or commodities company where your language skills may come in handy as mentioned before?

[fortysix]

(12-03-2012 04:02 AM)MountainLion Wrote:  

Sorry I didn't notice your law degree! Perhaps a job in an oil or commodities company where your language skills may come in handy as mentioned before?

Will check this out, thanks

[Beyond Borders]

While I think we can all agree that the odds of landing a job abroad while still in America are high, even with a relevant degree, I find myself wondering often these days if it might be far easier to get yourself abroad on saved money or in a TEFL job (as one of the more likely examples) and then land yourself a career via networking, learning the language, understanding the culture, etc.

My current opinion, though I have nothing to base this on, is that it would probably be even easier than landing a job from America even if you didn't have a degree. Obviously certain careers would still remain untouchable without proper education, but my experience with Asian cultures, for instance, is that it's all about the who you know. I imagine the same applies to South America.

Thoughts?

[redneckpunk]

lots of interest on the forum about this lately. For somebody that does not have experience or the kind that is in demand and wants to just show up in country X and work their way up, here is the basic deal.

You will need to find a job in whatever area you are interested in and work your ass off for a couple of years on a salary that is much less than what you would make teaching English in that country.

Assuming you know the language or a decent amount and now have 2 yrs of real experience you become more marketable and can start to move up.

The other large problem is securing a work visa in that country. Since you really aren't that valuable is the company going to go to the trouble to get you a visa? Each country will vary depending on the rules. The VISA IS THE KEY. Learn if it is hard to secure or not. Again VISA IS KEY, bc if you are not allowed to be in that country after X months then the dream is dead.

I've been shouting this from the rooftops on Rooshv the last few months:

23 years old with no real experience and a degree that is not STEM or business does not make you very valuable just bc you are an American or Canadian etc. A STEM or business degree with no real experience also doesn't make you that valuable. YOU NEED EXPERIENCE. Can you get hired to help a local firm bc they do business in the English speaking world...yes. Will you make a lot...nope, around $500 a month (obviously depends on country but a decent rule of thumb, $1000 is possible but if it's in Asia expect long nights and working some weekends). Are Fortune 500 companies banging on your door bc you had the guts to go to country X and are a self-starter? no, not until you can do something they need, and speaking English and language X is no longer enough in most countries. They can hire a local to do that for less and without the work visa hassle.

If you want to do this, save money now bc those 2 years will be tough.

IS this etched in stone...no. I haven't lived in every country but I think it is sound advice that nobody gave me when I went abroad.

make $$ doing ESL or slave away in an office. Do what you want but long term if you want to be abroad sacrifice the 2 years or so to learn skills and in the long run you will be better off.

Live in the cities where the work is. Tier 2 cities are great but for career the capital city or where the finance or manufacturing or exporting is going on and where the large corporations are is where you need to be.

Spent 7 years abroad, and might be headed abroad again in 2013/2014.

[j r]

7, one possibility for you would be the State Department. Getting into the foreign service is competitive, but most people want to be political officers. I don't know if there is as much demand for the consular and management tracks (these are the people who deal with visas and who run the embassies, respectively). Both of those are areas where a law degree might be useful.

[Gaston]

se7en

read what redneckpunk wrote and take it to the bank.

I'll also add something here, but I will add information pertaining to oriental Asia (and China specific) since your query was location-vague and non-specific. Believe me, it's not the same being an expat in Beijing and being one in London.

There are two types of westerners in China:

1. expats on western salary + package (true "expats" working for western companies)

2. and everyone else

To get #1 you need to be an expert, or otherwise deemed to be of high value within the company you already work for in the U.S. Or if you don't work for that company you need to be very attractive candidate on the open market, a caliber of which headhunters salivate over. Either way, you need to be a well- known commodity. And you get it by higher ups (or headhunters) approaching you. It's usually not something you look for though you certainly may keep your radar on and offer yourself if you see the opportunity. And you get hired back in the U.S., then they move you there. The package (salary + benefits) is awesome (no less than six figure$ and tons of perks, basically you only pay for food/entertainment/personal expenses and the rest is taken care for you).

Unfortunately, these are usually reserved for STEM people, corporate business people (top managers and experienced MBAs), and also experts in hospitality industry, say top western hotel management (and they get less than STEMs).

As for the law, for you it would be such a long shot that it may as well be impossible.

If despite all that you'd still consider going "blind" (this holds true for anyone else too), also know that you will be heading into murky waters and deep uncertainty and will be starting from less than scratch. And that your best bet would be to reinvent yourself, and stick with western people and companies until you get more experience on the ground. Say you end up in China, my advice would be to pursue exclusively western companies and managers because it's your best bet to get more or less a "normal" job. So if you are a junior lawyer in the U.S. consider you're doing OK if you can, within months of your arrival, get a gig as an assistant front desk manager trainee at large brand name western hotel. Or some such thing. And network like crazy. You may still get job with a local (Chinese) company as they do often need a "token" westerner, but beware that they are overprotective of their turf, will discriminate against you, and will not hire you for more than "peanuts".

You need to have lots of balls, a sense of extreme adventure, and willingness to fall to the bottom (before you can hope to rise up and establish yourself anywhere). Without these three characteristics you won't be able to digest the kind of challenges awaiting you.

That said, if you can stomach all that, and are smart about your whereabouts and doabouts, there's a lot of exhilarating times to be had (even if you are on the bottom). No matter what age one is for the adventurer types there's something quite invigorating about living in a culture completely alien to one's own.

(12-03-2012 07:31 AM)j r Wrote:  

7, one possibility for you would be the State Department. Getting into the foreign service is competitive, but most people want to be political officers.

He is Russian-native and still has Russian citizenship, he will not get a security clearance. His foreign service career is doomed before he can even think of starting it.

[Seadog]

I'm currently working in a small city in Indonesia as a Petroleum Engineer. Been doing this job 5 years, first real job out of school (Mech Eng). The company prides itself on international assignments, and I had been pushing for it since I started this job. I had to do 2.5 years in western Canada, then got moved to south Texas. Around month 10 in the US I basically said "where is all this travel I was promised when I got hired?" and put it in their mind that I might quit, and shortly after I get an offer for Indonesia. Here's what I think after 15 months:

Pluses:

-Money. My base salary is about 10-20% higher than Canada/US, and I get a 75% "remoteness bonus". I have no expenses. I pay a flat 17% tax. Full health/dental etc. $11k travel allowance a year. This is main plus. I save about 12k/mth.

-Schedule. On paper I work 8 weeks on 3 off. This is rarely honoured. But when you get it, it's nice to have a block of time off, and a ticket paid by the company anywhere in the world. You bank days off to take I guess when you threaten to quit or get transferred.

-Diet. Food is shit here, beef maybe once a week? Chicken and rice is your staple. Alcohol is hard to come by and no one drinks. No Bars. I've lost a ton of weight that I put on in the US.

Negatives:

-Asians love to work and don't have labour laws. 100 hour weeks are the norm. You could work 20 hours straight until 3am, and boss calls me at 830 wondering why I'm not at the shop. North America spoils people for workers rights.

-Living like a student. I get one room in a house with 4 other guys. The house is in the local community, but its a tiny city with nothing to do. We don't have a grocery store. Maybe half a dozen food stores, smaller than conveinience stores you'd see at gas stations in North America. Then a traditional market place.

-No real freedom. It's safe enough, but we have security at the houses watching every move (even if you want to go to the kitchen to cook popcorn they stand there and wait until you're done so they can lock it up again), you can't drive, we have drivers, but again, you have to call them up, they get ready at home then go to the shop, pick up the truck, then come get you. Unless you're going to work, or its something important, its more hassle than its worth.

-Nothing to do anyways. Like I said, small city, no movies, no bars, no gym. I honestly think people meet at the mosque here. I spend a lot of time reading, online, and movies. Sometimes go for walks at night.

-Lonely. I'm the only expat here. You get tired of having the same sueprficial conversations "Where you from? Married? What do you think of the food?" in broken english. And we work so much there is no time to meet locals, practice language etc.

-As a result of that, after 10 weeks of loneliness I just want to get back to westerners and friends who I can crack a joke with. So I spend 2.5 days traveling each way to North America, spend some time there, then spend some time is some resort city in Asia on my own. But I'm jet lagged a lot of the time, frustrated, I just want to eat and drink to excess since I have 200 meals of rice ahead and no friends until my next time off.

-Culture shock. 3 days without running water happens. Squat toilets, a shower could be a hose. Or a big bucket of well water with a scoop. Filthy. No garbage collection. Garbage fires everywhere. Traffic is bad. Everyone's poor. Did that cockroach run accross my food or come out of it? I don't care either way I'm hungry and it's the only food here. Capital cities have their own problems too, ever spent 4 hours in trafic to go 5 km?

-My life is on hold. I have no close friends, I'm technically homeless, it makes no sense to buy a nice car/TV etc.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I make about 5 times what the locals make, they can speak the language, and aside from my experience, are equally qualfied to do the job. I do a lot of coaching and higher profile work at wellsites. I was the same as you, but after no success at 24 looking for such a job I realized, you need to ask yourself what value do you provide to the company that makes you worth 5x a local + visa hassles without local knowledge/language? Me I have a lot more experience than them, international experience too, where things are done a lot more efficiently, and I'm willing to put up with the bad quality of life and abuse for a little while. I have a ton of money saved, but I'm starting to really miss a normal life. Every paycheck I just wonder whats the point? You were up for 48 hours straight in the rain, physically miserable, some number got bigger, but your life is the same as it was yesterday. All in all though I wouldn't call it wickedly better or worse than a regular job, just the allocation of money/freedom/quality of life/benifits is rearranged.

I'm late 20s and I think I'm pretty well set financially. I could probably live a half decent life here in SE asia indefinately just off dividend income. No possessions, but I have freedom and a ton of experiences which IMO makes the sacrifices worth while. Living for tomorrow? Maybe. But I could take off all my 30s if I wanted.

[Vicious]

Short version: get an engineering degree and be good at it.

[Bad Hussar]

If you scored at least above 95th percentile yourself, and are a natural teacher, consider being an LSAT tutor. I know the LSAT mainly used for US law schools, but I'm sure there are many people around the world with hopes of attending an ivy league law school. Perhaps this would allow you to get your foot into the door, and you can then look for other opportunities.

[lavidaloca]

The hard part for OP also is that he likely has a lot of debt. He can't exactly accept jobs overseas that are paying 1-2k a month. His debt payments are probably near that.

[ElJefe]

Just because you have a degree in one field doesn't necessarily mean you must work with that the rest of your life. You choose humanities - liberal arts - because it's an interesting, broad educaiton that makes YOU an interesting person, not some kind of dairy-cow for corporatations and the IRS.

You go to college to make you mind an interesting place to live. You will, after all, be living there the rest of your life.

For technical skills, some people go to college for that. But for two-thirds of jobs out there, no technical skill is required. You learn what you need to learn DOING the job. That's how it works with most jobs. That said, you need to convince prospective employers you are the man for the job.

Your language skills can and should put you two steps ahead of everyone else. That you completed your degrees are also substantial achievements that prove you can do a job that takes more brain-power than a good part of the population can muster. For a good abroad strategy, identify 3-4 companies you want to work for, and then look at areas where there are openings, and/or departments where you know you can create value. To get an idea of how exactly you can create value, contact people on LinkedIn, call HR to ask what they're looking for right now, explain who you are, and ask what you can DO to make yourself a better match for them. There are a multitude of ways to approach this, it's just a question of good groundwork, and asking questions the answers to which tell you what you can do to get one step to closer to that job you're interested in.

Once inside the company, it's time to out-perform and over-perform and network. After two years you should have made enough good impressions to make a jump up the ladder.

[Menace]

Problem for OP is he has a JD...this is a limiting degree, not, contrary to what people say, one that opens a lot of doors. I think language ability is over valued unless the ability to speak a particular language is actually the nature of the job itself (i.e. teacher, translator). Otherwise it's just a plus factor.

OP likely has $120+ in student debt if he finished at any reasonable law school. Did those job placement ads on Above the Law seduce you?

Bottom line you need to ask yourself this question: what do I have that 100 other guys don't have, and how will it benefit my prosepective employer?

[Angry Beaver]

(12-03-2012 11:14 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

Short version: get an engineering degree and be good at it.

True story! I'm doing an extinction to my Liberal Arts BA degree in PolSci and all I can think about is what comes after the graduation It is hard to see a real job lined up....

[j r]

(12-03-2012 09:00 AM)Gaston Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 07:31 AM)j r Wrote:  

7, one possibility for you would be the State Department. Getting into the foreign service is competitive, but most people want to be political officers.

He is Russian-native and still has Russian citizenship, he will not get a security clearance. His foreign service career is doomed before he can even think of starting it.

Not necessarily. There may be something in his past that would disqualify him from getting clearance, but neither being born in another country nor retaining that country's citizenship once you are naturalized an American citizen is enough to automatically rule you out.

[Seadog]

To comment on your specific situation, I think you're going to have a hard go of it. Generally, expat jobs need to have a "hands on" component. Something where you physically need to be there. Plant manager, field engineer, millwright etc. As mentioned in 4HWW, any purely "thinking" job can be farmed out to India.

[scotian]

Seadog, great post!

I've been considering going expat in the next few years although from some of the guys I've talked to who do it and after reading your post, it doesn't seem like its always as good as its cracked up to be.

I also work in oil and gas, in western Canada, I find that the shittiest part of the industry is that the majority of the jobs sites are either offshore or in some shit hole area of whatever country the work is in. Really the only positive aspect for me is the big money to be made and in my case, plenty of time off to do whatever I want.

Sounds like your work in Indo is pretty brutal but at least your stacking lots of money.

[fortysix]

Thanks for all of your informative feedback. Seadog - awesome post.

To address a few points:

(12-03-2012 02:14 PM)lavidaloca Wrote:  

The hard part for OP also is that he likely has a lot of debt. He can't exactly accept jobs overseas that are paying 1-2k a month. His debt payments are probably near that.

Fortunately, I have no debt that needs to be paid back at this point. However, for those people that are currently taking out loans or plan to do so in the future, the Obama administration has announced a proposal to the "Income Based Repayment" plan which I believe gets enacted at the end of this year. If you opt into this loan repayment plan, payments for all of your federal student loans get capped at 10% of your discretionary income (that is, income after taxes). After 25 years your loans are completely forgiven by the government.

One issue, however, is that your principal continues to accrue, so even though you are only paying 10% of your income to pay back your loans, the loan you are responsible for is getting immensely larger - if the U.S. government ever decides to change or cancel this plan (and they have already changed it a number of times) and you have been relying on this plan you are S.O.L. because the principal amount you are now responsible for is unfathomable.

Furthermore, if you wait 25 years and your loans are discharged, you need to pay income tax on your loans as if they were income. This creates a tax bomb because you are going to be taxed off that principal amount which has accumulated interest. (Im not too sure about how this works, though)

The U.S. government is pretty much acknowledging that people cant pay back their loans and is giving out $$ which its never getting back. It seems to me it would have made more sense to create some reforms to lower the cost of education, but whatever.

(12-03-2012 02:49 PM)ElJefe Wrote:  

Just because you have a degree in one field doesn't necessarily mean you must work with that the rest of your life. You choose humanities - liberal arts - because it's an interesting, broad educaiton that makes YOU an interesting person, not some kind of dairy-cow for corporatations and the IRS.

You go to college to make you mind an interesting place to live. You will, after all, be living there the rest of your life.

For technical skills, some people go to college for that. But for two-thirds of jobs out there, no technical skill is required. You learn what you need to learn DOING the job. That's how it works with most jobs. That said, you need to convince prospective employers you are the man for the job.

Your language skills can and should put you two steps ahead of everyone else. That you completed your degrees are also substantial achievements that prove you can do a job that takes more brain-power than a good part of the population can muster. For a good abroad strategy, identify 3-4 companies you want to work for, and then look at areas where there are openings, and/or departments where you know you can create value. To get an idea of how exactly you can create value, contact people on LinkedIn, call HR to ask what they're looking for right now, explain who you are, and ask what you can DO to make yourself a better match for them. There are a multitude of ways to approach this, it's just a question of good groundwork, and asking questions the answers to which tell you what you can do to get one step to closer to that job you're interested in.

Once inside the company, it's time to out-perform and over-perform and network. After two years you should have made enough good impressions to make a jump up the ladder.

I like this. I enjoyed my education and truly loved what I was studying. Would I have done things differently if I could go back in time now? I probably still would have taken the humanities and language classes that I took because I actually enjoyed them.

I really had no conception of "location independent income" and how to leave the option of working abroad open. I took a few pre-reqs in STEM fields and really did not enjoy them at the time so I did not pursue them. Part of the problem was that I went to a very good school for undergrad, did not have to pay $$, and I was very successful when I was there - socially and academically. All my success up to that point gave me a skewed perception of reality and I thought that no matter what happened, I would continue being successful in the future, and get into whatever field I wanted to get into, and make mad $$, and love live, just because I was surrounded by success at that moment.

I wish I had this forum back in the day to keep me grounded and broaden my perspective about the future. Then I would have probably stayed an extra year or two and maxed out on computer science and mathematics on top of my humanities degree so that I would have a foundation on which to build in-demand skills in the future.

At this point im pursuing my career here while leaving the option of transferring to an international firm office in the future. Im also going to make a list of companies I am potentially interested working in within EE - nobody would need to sponsor a visa for me because I am a citizen, and I have some connections over there. I'm also putting together some business ideas to stack bread, and slowly getting into some coding as a hobby.

[Seadog]

Thanks Scotian, you from NS too I take it? Halifax here.

Anyways, To respond to your question and not to hijak because hopefully this will be useful to OP, no it's not all its cracked up to be. All things considered it isn't bad but its certainly no dream gig either. Like every job, the benefits over drawbacks are just good enough that you don't quit, but not so good people are lining up to do it. I wish could do equal time and have a bit of a regular life.

The problem that I think most people suffer from, is before working in these countries (even if they already live there) their impression of 'abroad' is generally limited to insulated places. By which I mean places that see a lot of foreigners, or at least medium sized cities that have everything you need and where with western money you are rich. I tell people I work in Indo, they picture Bali, surfing on the beach every day after work, chasing slutty Aussies on the weekends. A combination of the best of the western work life and vacation.

The reality is most places are very poor. Median income is $2 a day here. Guys on the rigs make $200 a month. Coman with a degree and 15 yrs $200 a day. Because everyone is so poor, people will do anything for a buck. By which I mean you'll often see corners cut, and people taking advantage of employees. Western work rights or laws don't exist. There is blatant discrimination in hiring etc. There is no such thing as the legal right to refuse work. (Though most big int'l companies push and enforce it just like in the west). I'm in a small city where basics like butter, bread or cheese simply aren't available. These things, along with luxuries like AC and toilet paper are out of financial reach to most locals. The one thing this has done for me is truly make me appreciate Canada. My last trip home I just went to the grocery store and marveled at all the food.

[lavidaloca]

In fairness Seadog while the work may suck. 5-6 years of saving and investing and you should have 1 million + saved up. If one were to start out like that at age 22 by age 27 they'd be a millionaire. Do it 5 more years and you'd be looking at multi millionaire with compound interest and investments accruing to possibly give you 3+ million. Thats a pretty damn sweet deal. One could easily retire on that and live anywhere in the world just about.

[Ray Carlton]

(12-04-2012 02:53 AM)lavidaloca Wrote:  

In fairness Seadog while the work may suck. 5-6 years of saving and investing and you should have 1 million + saved up. If one were to start out like that at age 22 by age 27 they'd be a millionaire. Do it 5 more years and you'd be looking at multi millionaire with compound interest and investments accruing to possibly give you 3+ million. Thats a pretty damn sweet deal. One could easily retire on that and live anywhere in the world just about.

show me the numbers!