[kerouac]

The nightclub biz is pretty non-traditional wherever you go in the world. There are plenty of other business opportunities outside of nightclubs that can be very profitable in South America that don't really have a tendency of attracting molotov coctails

Greasing palms is the story of the world... has been, and forever will be. It works well at least, because when you grease some palms you get fast results, whereas beauracracy is a biyooootch.

[Pepini]

Carandiru movie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nje2kKx5Npk

[whosyourdaddy]

I own a restaurant here in the States, and it's a real pain in the ***. Nightclubs and restaurants are awful. Too much cash and chances for people to give away free drinks.

Nightclubs and trendy restaurants at least here in the U.S. have a very short lifespan. Could be hot one year then dead. Restaurants are just a logistical nightmare. What if your chef just quits one day? How will you run? Keeping people satisfied, the health department, getting raped by vendors, electricians, refrigerator repairmen, etc.
Nightclub bartenders WILL give out free drinks to people, pocket cash. Don't forget bouncers, fights that will break out, etc

And you can't be there all the time. How will you be sure your staff and management aren't pocketing cash?

[hydrogonian]

(04-15-2010 11:54 PM)whosyourdaddy Wrote:  

I own a restaurant here in the States, and it's a real pain in the ***. Nightclubs and restaurants are awful. Too much cash and chances for people to give away free drinks.

Nightclubs and trendy restaurants at least here in the U.S. have a very short lifespan. Could be hot one year then dead. Restaurants are just a logistical nightmare. What if your chef just quits one day? How will you run? Keeping people satisfied, the health department, getting raped by vendors, electricians, refrigerator repairmen, etc.
Nightclub bartenders WILL give out free drinks to people, pocket cash. Don't forget bouncers, fights that will break out, etc

And you can't be there all the time. How will you be sure your staff and management aren't pocketing cash?

I've seen owners put video surveillance on the bar. That seemed to work well, as bartenders tend to be quickly fired after this goes in. If they know about it, I think free drinks would be much less of an issue.

But, from having known many restaurant owners, I can attest that your opinion common to probably 95% of restaurant/bar owners. That business is a logistical nightmare.

The only type of restaurant / bar that I would ever consider is the warehouse style place with a ton of capacity. The volume must more than makes up for the losses.

Theres a ribeye wharehouse style place by me that does nothing but perhaps 4-5 dishes a night, and has a decent bar. Poor decor. The volume is outrageous. Red meat (not high end service - key) and alcohol/ They also have a wall filled with pizza brick ovens. Insane business. In the same neighborhood is another wharehouse style place, 4-5 dishes a night and alcohol, but better decor. They do more wedding receptions and such, but also a ton of regular traffic and they have a patio. Owners of both places must be millionaires. The volume is just too high, 4 nights a week, to not be. Smaller places seem to go out of business much more frequently than larger.

This all being said, even in places like those above, I think the real estate will tend to make or break the place. If your paying too much in rent or mortgage, your fucked no matter what.

[thegmanifesto]

"The only type of restaurant / bar that I would ever consider is the warehouse style place with a ton of capacity."

The other type of place I have seen make money is the super low overhead crappy dive bar turned "hip".

Especially in a down economy.

[gringoed]

The smartest way to get in the restaurant business is to own the real estate. McDonalds realized this a long time ago, and indeed it's the only way to go.

Work 1hr a month collecting rent, and let some chump work 100hrs/week to make you wealthy.

[hydrogonian]

(04-16-2010 03:58 PM)gringoed Wrote:  

The smartest way to get in the restaurant business is to own the real estate. McDonalds realized this a long time ago, and indeed it's the only way to go.

Work 1hr a month collecting rent, and let some chump work 100hrs/week to make you wealthy.

Yeah, and if you don't own the real estate, really in any business thats success is based on the specific location / building, then you really aren't the one with control over the business.

All a landlord has to do is gain a little insight on your profit margins, and then eat up any "profit slack" with the next lease negotiation.

[PartyTime]

2 thoughts on this topic:

1) Glamorous Businesses are less profitable than un-glamorous businesses. Everyone wants to own a restaurant or bar. There is a certain glamor involved. And because of this extra competition you can expect less profit. I used to know a guy who owned a business that distributed lard. Now thats about as un-glamorous as it gets, but thats one of the reasons he made so much money

2) Not sure about bars, but anyone I've ever talked to who was in the restaurant business says its a horrible business. The rate of failure is high, and the return is poor for those who survive. I imagine its the same for bars.

[AlphaQup2nite]

I got friends in the bar industry. The thing is, the profit margins are astronomical, at least for places favored by the rich.

I got a friend who made some cash importing wines from Australia, buying for 12 bucks a bottle, with the retail price at the consumer end being 150+ a bottle.

Also, high end bars/clubs that can get to full capacity, even if only on weekends, make crazy gains. Even the smallest mark up at these places is 2-3X the normal prices, not counting wholesale.

That's how outdoor bars here in Xiamen can only open 6 months out of the year, and still afford their almost 10-20 grand a month rent.

Alcohol in most countries is dirt cheap. I get a bottle here for 50 cents, bars sell it for 4 bucks, clubs for 8, and with low cost of labor here (i hired part time bar staff for maybe 1-2 bucks an hour when i managed one), and even counting the occasional bribes, it doesn't take much to start rolling out of the red into the green. But that place was a shit hole to work in with 5 partners who were never around and crazy tight fisted when it came to anything.

The problem i would say is the rolling popularity of bars in a limited location. You need to offer something that that makes people want to come back. Bars fade in and out of "style" and you need to build a solid customer base to pay bills. And you wont make money for the first long while. Things like these spread by word of mouth. None of the normal advertising methods work. I had a plan set up for the bar i worked out of for using stealth marketing which was shot down by the owners for costs, but if you can get a good model for it, it would be crazy awesome.

TL DR:
You need to find a niche in the bar market to make any dent in an existing bar culture, or go somewhere where the demand outstrips the supply. Standard business rules, but bars and restaurants are already pretty much an over-saturated market anywhere.

[InternationPlayboy]

(03-19-2010 12:33 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  

(03-18-2010 09:21 PM)Brandon E Wrote:  

(03-18-2010 07:30 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  

An argentine prison would probably be worse than death.

Fuck prison in Argentina. I was watching that show, locked up abroad, and some guys were locked up in Venezuela. It was litterally like war zone between two gangs in the prisons. The prisoners had more control of the prison than the guards did. The prisoners actually had guns. Crazy shit. Another good one to put Brazilian prison into perspective is the movie Carandiru. It's a true story about a prison riot that left 100+ unarmed prisoners dead and ended up shutting down the whole prison shortly after.

I wouldnt want to get locked up anywhere in South America. I'm sure there isn't that much difference between the depravity of the conditions, between countries.

Hell, France and Italy are supposed to host 2 of the most grueling prison experiences in the world. Perhaps not because of out of control prisoners, but because of the conditions prisoners are forced to endure by the prison system itself. France may be reformed by now, but they may not be either.

The point being that I think being locked up in North America is probably luxurious compared to most places in the rest of the world.

No way man, being locked up in North America would suck. I mean, I would never want to be locked up, but if I had to pick a spot it would be Europe or Australia. Basically anywhere else in the world would be hell it seems like. North American prisons are horrible though.

[hydrogonian]

(05-09-2010 04:37 PM)Brandon E Wrote:  

(03-19-2010 12:33 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  

(03-18-2010 09:21 PM)Brandon E Wrote:  

(03-18-2010 07:30 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  

An argentine prison would probably be worse than death.

Fuck prison in Argentina. I was watching that show, locked up abroad, and some guys were locked up in Venezuela. It was litterally like war zone between two gangs in the prisons. The prisoners had more control of the prison than the guards did. The prisoners actually had guns. Crazy shit. Another good one to put Brazilian prison into perspective is the movie Carandiru. It's a true story about a prison riot that left 100+ unarmed prisoners dead and ended up shutting down the whole prison shortly after.

I wouldnt want to get locked up anywhere in South America. I'm sure there isn't that much difference between the depravity of the conditions, between countries.

Hell, France and Italy are supposed to host 2 of the most grueling prison experiences in the world. Perhaps not because of out of control prisoners, but because of the conditions prisoners are forced to endure by the prison system itself. France may be reformed by now, but they may not be either.

The point being that I think being locked up in North America is probably luxurious compared to most places in the rest of the world.

No way man, being locked up in North America would suck. I mean, I would never want to be locked up, but if I had to pick a spot it would be Europe or Australia. Basically anywhere else in the world would be hell it seems like. North American prisons are horrible though.

You ever see the movie "Catch Me If You Can" , about Frank Abignale, starring DiCaprio? Remember when he was in prison and sick, in France? Well, that was a brief movie depiction of his real life prison experience, as it was detailed in the book. If you want a good real life "been there done that" description of European prison conditions, read that book (its pretty short).

According to his experience, French prisons make North American prisons look like 4 star hotels. And his experience was in France, which is one of the most advanced European economies and societies. I can't imagine what lesser countries are like. He was scared to go to Italy, who wanted to extradite him next, as it was supposed to be much worse than his hellish experience in France. Instead, he went to Sweden, which he said did have very good prison conditions. Probably the best in the world, from his description.

[GermanDude]

Quote:

You ever see the movie "Catch Me If You Can" , about Frank Abignale, starring DiCaprio? Remember when he was in prison and sick, in France? Well, that was a brief movie depiction of his real life prison experience, as it was detailed in the book. If you want a good real life "been there done that" description of European prison conditions, read that book (its pretty short).

I read lots of stuff about that guy (and saw the movie, and read the book).

He said the french prison experience the way it was told in the book was overdone in his opinion.
(Dont ask me where I read that as it's been a while, but I was surprised myself to read that the book wasnt an accurate biography but written to sell better (just like the movie))

[whosyourdaddy]

(04-23-2010 01:59 AM)AlphaQup2nite Wrote:  

I got friends in the bar industry. The thing is, the profit margins are astronomical, at least for places favored by the rich.

I got a friend who made some cash importing wines from Australia, buying for 12 bucks a bottle, with the retail price at the consumer end being 150+ a bottle.

Also, high end bars/clubs that can get to full capacity, even if only on weekends, make crazy gains. Even the smallest mark up at these places is 2-3X the normal prices, not counting wholesale.

That's how outdoor bars here in Xiamen can only open 6 months out of the year, and still afford their almost 10-20 grand a month rent.

Alcohol in most countries is dirt cheap. I get a bottle here for 50 cents, bars sell it for 4 bucks, clubs for 8, and with low cost of labor here (i hired part time bar staff for maybe 1-2 bucks an hour when i managed one), and even counting the occasional bribes, it doesn't take much to start rolling out of the red into the green. But that place was a shit hole to work in with 5 partners who were never around and crazy tight fisted when it came to anything.

The problem i would say is the rolling popularity of bars in a limited location. You need to offer something that that makes people want to come back. Bars fade in and out of "style" and you need to build a solid customer base to pay bills. And you wont make money for the first long while. Things like these spread by word of mouth. None of the normal advertising methods work. I had a plan set up for the bar i worked out of for using stealth marketing which was shot down by the owners for costs, but if you can get a good model for it, it would be crazy awesome.

TL DR:
You need to find a niche in the bar market to make any dent in an existing bar culture, or go somewhere where the demand outstrips the supply. Standard business rules, but bars and restaurants are already pretty much an over-saturated market anywhere.

You have to consider the other 160 hours in the week that THEY AREN'T MAKING MONEY. At least a restaurant is open 7 days a week and makes money during lunch and dinner. Nightclubs are often only open at night.

The profit margins are insane because they make all of their money on thur, fri and sat night. What about Sun and Mon nights??

Bars are all cash too. Heck, if i was a bartender, i'd try to keep all i could. Do this in a third world country- how do you get all of your licenses, keep up with regulations, pay off the local crime lord, deal with drugs being dealt in your bar/club, fights, shootouts, security, power outages, random events like a fire, road construction, etc.