[Nomad77]

Roosh created a post on his blog today that I thought was so important that I wanted to create a thread for it for further discussion.

Roosh Wrote:

It’s difficult to know when to quit. Whether you’re dealing with money, pussy, or travel, there comes a point where you pass the point of diminishing return. When the correct move is to enjoy and reflect on our gains before moving on to something else, why do we keep doing the same thing? Why do we forego new opportunities for an old habit that doesn’t give us as much pleasure as it used to?

Poker and blackjack players know how hard it is to end a session. It doesn’t matter if you’re up or down—there is a psychological pull that keeps you seated until the typical result of losing all your money, no matter how well you may have been doing. In poker you go on “tilt” where your emotions override your logic and you lose everything while complaining about how some sucker called the pot when he “should’ve” folded. Those who do well at gambling not only have to be skilled at the game but also strong enough to get up from the table when there is little advantage in staying.

It’s the same feeling when having a goal to save money. You tell yourself when you have X amount of cash you will feel comfortable in life. Then you get there and realize that you could use a bit more. You get to your second goal but decide to keep going. I have saved much more than my initial goal I set over five years ago but now I feel it’s not enough and decided on a goal that is ten times more than the original. I know that if I get there it still won’t be enough. You can give me one million dollars right now and I’ll still feel insecure after a month or two, thinking of ways to increase it further.

The problem with humans is that the program in our DNA tells us that it’s never enough. We simply can’t stay satisfied with what we have. Another example is notches. I can’t seem to stop chasing them, even though I get less pleasure from the pursuit than in my twenties. The only difference between chasing money and chasing notches is that the former is sanctioned by society while the other is not, but in the end they’re not all that different.

When is it time to say enough and ease out of chasing something that used to give you so much happiness? Why does it seem impossible for me to quit a game that has defined me for so long? Many men stay hooked long after they should’ve quit, hanging on to a pursuit that no longer makes sense, all while neglecting the present. You face the risk of forgoing new pleasures that may take you way above what used to give you everything, but no longer does. The hardest thing in life is knowing when to get up from the table.

[presidentcarter]

I thought he was on point mostly, but I think that until you're happy, you can never stop chasing - both money and women.

You will hit plateaus on both fronts, but you'll probably never be fully satisfied. It is important to be where you need to be when you start slowing down (age 60?).

It reminds me of the Simcity game. You'd start out with nothing, and hours/days later, you'd have filled the entire map and have a fully functioning, tax revenue-generating society. Even if bigfoot or a tornado rolls through, you're all good. Critical mass reached. Big mayor house up on the hill. But you're bored and you're ready to start all over again.

[The Fantasist]

Great post by Roosh,thanks for sharing. It's something I've been thinking about a lot recently. It seems often these days I plan trips not because they really inspire me,like they once did, but because it's just what I've always done.

His money point is spot on too. I've found the more I make the stingier I get. The fatter my wallet becomes the harder it is to spend it. It's ridiculous.

[Coyote]

I have an intuitive link with life. I owe it to my Taoist kung fu studies.

I just posted "Help Coyote Slip the Noose" thread.

I find the timing shall we say coincidental (if you believe in such things as coincidence (I don't).

I have not been active on the forum because I have been hanging out with a chick thirty years younger than me, who is a solid 7 or better and has all the qualities that I should make me feel she is the one….

As I wrote in my post – "I should be stoked."

I'm not….

I think the blog was important but more so the replies. Now those were insightful. So I cut and pasted my favorites and commented on each… neurotic no? jajajajaaa

I can judge because I am a 58 year old independently wealthy guy (since 30 years old and self made) who lived a playboy life style down to the oceanfront guard gated community home and Lotus. Then on to the spiritual bachelor (jajajaja) and now the expat cafetalero (coffee grower / hacienda owner) so to speak admiring the bounties of my work and experience (shall we say).

Hey it is what it is and I am not boasting, I am stating my qualifications to comment on Roosh's blog and more importantly the wise and insightful comments. There are very cool cats on this site.

I am now trying to avoid a woman that all conventional thinking says I should grab.

Let me digress (as I often do), the conventional thought was also for me to marry the chick that made a 100k a month…. I didn't. Fuck conventional I have always said. I didn't get wealthy thinking conventionally and I didn't have the plethora of great relationships and more than a dozen friends of twenty years and a great life of having all the perks of fame without being famous – and knowing when to stop chasing money and use my wealth to enhance my life by using conventional wisdom.

"When you know you have enough, you are truly rich." Tao Te Ching

Greed is conventional / It's one of the reasons I left the US.

Greed is a symptom of self-ignorance. Not knowing yourself, so how could you know when you have too much or too little.

When you take the time to define yourself, the chances are very high that you will not see greed as a default action when opportunities occur.

Personal development through self-definition creates an inner guide.

This inner guide directs us with an obvious certainty that other perceive as confidence. Chicks love confidence. Confidence (real knowing from the heart / not cockiness: which is what you think you can do, rather than what you know you can do) makes thing happen financially, protection wise, and relationship wise. All your relationships are better when you are confident rather than needy. You physical challenges are better when you are confident and people like to work with confident associates.

Creating a self-definition creates confidence.

Confidence allows you to determine when you have enough (notice I did not write "when to quit")

When you have added always doing your best as part of your self-definition, then you have committed never to quit.

Kung fu analogy: You are standing in let's say a bar, and your challenger is there and you know you are going to take him out. Then you see his two bodyguards appear. He sees you and becomes threatening. You haul ass.

You quit.

Not if you have confidence you don't quit - what you do is reposition for a more advantageous moment to take him out.

If you run in fear, you lack confidence. If you run to strengthen your position, you are a strategist.

This is the point to consider when thinking about diminishing returns.

Why are you repositioning? Or are you running away.

(side bar: awesome chick that I like (I usually don't enjoy a woman's company, they are unreasonable, trite, usually over confident and under accomplished playing a smoke and mirrors game that is thin when you hear them talk about their lives. It becomes obvious that they are not who they think they are (their self-image), but this 29 year old is amusing and observing rather than self aggrandizing. What ever the intangible reasoning I enjoy her company (at least for now).

Side to the side bar: The most intelligent mentor I had told me. "Hey you are all in love and you think this woman is so great and you talk about how she is different - and its all roses. Now you just wait. About six months after you have met her you are going to get up and go to the breakfast table and just the way she chews her food is going to piss you off."

Hahahahahah… it's like a Seinfeld episode where Jerry breaks up with a chick because she ate her peas one at a time rather than by the fork full!!!

You wake up one day and it just happens.

So, here she is, remember the facts.
Me: 58
Her 29
Educated, intelligent, white chick, solid 7 - 7.5, great job with HP. Owns a house, owns a car, no kids, takes her mom on vacation to Cuba for a week, belly dancer and very competent and organized.

So I am stoked, right?

Not stoked! Why? I am thinking about the Dominican Republic or Colombia or Brazil.

Am I running in fear? Or am I repositioning?

Lets look at the fear.

What could scare me: Death? Well I think about that every day and have pretty much resolved that I am going to die and that resolution has allowed me to risk.

So it's not fear. What it is, is there is a lot that can go wrong when you become beta to a chick

Beta is what happens when moist guys marry, that is, they surrender.

Like the guy in Asia said: if you marry on your terms it's not surrender. That pretty much does not exist in the US. Its surrender there. Ah but I live in Costa Rica!

So why am I leaving? A two month bachelor party of sorts???

I have fulfilled every fantasy I care to indulge. Take my advice most of them were better when they were fantasies – naw its not that.

What it is, is what all good kung fu men do, it's what all complete warriors do (adepts in sword and pen), I am repositioning. Shaking up the variables, calling for a new hand.

I feel she has a advantageous position on me and I don't like to be at a disadvantage, so I am running, but not in fear. I am running as a tactic. I see diminishing returns in my relationship with her… see where I am going with this???

So is walking away from a position (such as diminishing returns) done in the sprit of quitting, or is it repositioning in search of the advantage.

Is it an acknowledgement that one has enough, so he is rich and can now use his riches to enhance his life: reinvent oneself (I have reinvented myself more times than Bob Dylan).

Like my kung fu teacher said: When you get your black belt, you are now a teacher (reinvented). That means you open your own studio and teach. That does not mean that you cannot come back (to his studio)." You can go back to the old self.

Is your repositioning a declaration of progression or a renunciation of the past?

If you have self-defined, you know what is important to you; you have decided what makes you - you. Things like greed, laziness, vanity have been resolved; either rejected or accepted. Either way, you know who you are. Therefore, you are confident.

Confident, you reposition effortlessly and never question the things I am writing about.

You just know and act.

To know and act is the same thing. You cannot know without acting. You cannot act without knowing.

A while back I wrote Roosh several emails regarding brotherhood and personal development, character building. He published one on the forum with my consent, and suggested I join.

His blog topic and the replies illustrate why character building is so important, as it affects what I teach through my writings (kung fu sutras) to be the three most important aspects of life:

Spirit, Energy and Vitality: the ability to Communicate Provide and Protect.

When you define yourself, you are creating a self-definition that facilitates your ability to provide, protect and communicate.

When you asses a friend or an enemy, you must take into account his ability to fight (physical strength/ vitality), his social strength (who he knows and what connection he has, who he communicates with (spirit), and his ability to finance a campaign (business venture, war etc), his monetary wealth. Choosing and enemy or an ally without considering this, you are negligent.

These are the things that make a man a complete warrior: protection, provision communication.

To sum up this long ass post (short book), when you self define, you address these kinds of topics (diminishing returns for example) intuitively because you have addressed their roots (ie" greed) when you choose your character variables.

Personal development is crucial to the kind of success that is fulfilling, satisfying. It may not always make you happy as you will choose according to what defines you, rather than what makes you "happy" in the moment. Nevertheless, you will live a high level of satisfaction; a feeling that endures, lasts.

What is real lasts.


Here are some of the great replies (I am strting out with one that I consider trite. A difenite platitude from a Dr Laura blog.

"The time to cash out is when you find a woman who maintains your interest while looking after your needs as if they were her own; and who you can envision as the mother of children as you’re drawn towards the greatest investment of your time and energy, fatherhood. When that day comes, you’ll know it. Until then, keep plowing away."

Nice bit of living in a perfect world kind of thought.

The thing is you may not know it. There is no perfect women or person, and you can plow away all your life… nice attempt for a fairy tale ending that could happen… but probably not. More likely, a path to an endless honey-do list…

"Respectfully Tony, that is also called “chasing after a fantasy” That is exactly the Disney esque / Shakeseparian rooted bullshit propaganda that has been fed to men for so long. maye eons ago it was the case,. but not now and do not expect it to change until something happens where we get bombed back to the stone age by a doomsday metieor or something.

Today in modern times men who grow old and stick to their independence are the ones who are happiest, not someone who marches off to the gallows of matrimoney and becomes some womans poodle."

Sagely advice. The perfect retort. Could not have said it better myself…

"Quitting is difficult because it feels like defeat. It is not. It is knowing that you have achieved your original goal and it is time to move on. It is knowing that returns are much less than what you deserve and you deserve much more than that. It is knowing that it is time to move on because another attractive journey lies ahead of you and it is time to move on. It is not quitting, it is knowing. Knowing yourself, your capacities and your needs. What it takes to make you happy."

Sagely advice. This is the warrior mentality that comes from knowing yourself. To know yourself you have to define what is important to you. I covered that above…

"Pursuit has a hidden result of defining who you are, who you have become. It is this attractive identity that is so hard to give up. We might kill ourselves if we give up this identity. But it is only a story we made up, selecting elements, rejecting others. If we created this identity, we can kill it and create another. A better one that this. More fulfilling. More nurturing. More … you."

Sagely advice. This has to do with reinventing yourself, gained from repositioning. In this case you are not repositioning yourself physically, you are repositioning (recreating) your image. You can do this without redefining yourself and adversely affecting your character. You do not have to go against what is important to you, your values, when you recreate your self-mage. If you do, you become incongruent, that is your image and your values conflict. You will be dissatisfied no matter how much money you make or women you have.

"Any hobby you turn into a living is going to ruin it eventually. At some point you will find yourself saying, “I don’t really want to do X right now, but if I don’t I won’t pull down the income I need this week.” Once enough of that happens you will start to hate your own hobby."

Astute observation. This has happened to me several times and ultimately is what leads me to redefine/reinvent myself.

"The question I guess becomes, how do you reignite that excitement? Or can you, or should you? And if not, what’s next? Hoping to find my next."

Passion is important. It's central to the complete warrior. It the middle ring (the heart) that empowers the other four rings. One needs an education in all five rings to be complete. Passion, the way of the heart, fire, the ring of the fighter is essential in all endeavors. It is part of the primordial life force empowering our existence.

"I feel this way sometimes. I’m 30 no and have bedded well over 200 women. I am an expert at my craft, but frankly sometimes I feel I’m getting old for it. It’s time consuming, expensive, it has opportunity costs…and realistically I think it’s an addiction. I certainly can Identify with this thread."

This relates to a post I wrote regarding wealth. Is money important to game? (I think was the title). Chasing chicks takes away from the time you can use to build your engine. Money fuels that engine. Think of the engine as your lifestyle/work/life purpose etc. Now if you have the lifestyle (engine) and money (fuel), women and philandering maybe as valid an option as anything else. Now, like anything else, if you abuse it then it's just a sin. By that I mean a sin is anything that goes against yourself, and your self-definition. Anything that hurts you mentally or physically is a sin.

"yeah. and sometimes you’re forced to sit down at the table again to stop the damage from happening. Because you got up once and it lead to a huge shitstorm that would have been avoided if you had just continued to play the game."

I love this insightful response and maybe my favorite. Here the clever author refers to what happened when you stray form who you are and what works for you (which yourself definition should support), and what you would have avoided if you did not go against yourself (sin).

"But once they are raised and out the door, you’ll go right back to chasing the setting sun. My dad who is retired, bought a fucking camper and just drives around the country going to all the national parks. Makes me laugh. Once he sees every national park, he will probably buy a fucking plane or something and start flying places."

"A rose is a rose is a rose is a rose. Your roses and my roses may just be different things" My mentor said this in response to me asking him why a multi millionaire would hang out all the times at his warehouse complex, when (according to me) he should be sailing around the world or banging chicks three at a time - or whatever, anything than hanging out with his employees (for the most part). We all smell different roses.

"He said “because deep down inside, in places you haven’t seen yet, they worry about dying. They know that if they retire, they lose their purpose and their reason to get up in the morning. And they know that once that reason evaporates, it’s a quick trip to the coffin. Watch how fast these guys die off after they leave this place. It usually happens within 2-3 years. When you lose a purpose for living, you die rather quickly once you’re older.”

This is true but it does not have t be if you know yourself. If you become your job rather than yourself because you never took time to define yourself (so how could you know yourself and be true to yourself), than you will die once you lose your purpose. My purpose is me. That is, it is to perpetuate what is important to me. I am not my money, my family or my work. I am me. That is why unlike mist wealthy people I know if I lost all my wealth I would go right on being me. I may be financially poorer but I would not change. I would not want to kill myself etc (sin), I may feel bad after losing a lot but I would go right back to me doing what I do, that is acting to the situation rather than being a victim of it.

I have this ranch in California and to get there I have to go through Fred's property. Fred was in his 80's and would always complain about his three goats. One day I asked Fred about the goats. He said he got rid of them. A week later Fred was dead.

"What i htink, Roosh was tryin to tell us that its important to find your “golden middle” in everything you do.To stop when its not too late, or keep going if you feel like you are still not ready and really love what you are doing,or just to take a pose and relax if you are not sure what to do ! Unfortunately many of us (if circumstances as health, finances and great lyfestyle allows)forget where the borders are, and overdo it in all ways but then again , its all life experiences and we learn from our mistakes, adventures, travels , etc .The point is to be sure that what you do is the right for you!"

I like this one as well. A lot of experienced individuals on this forum. I salute all of you. As illustrated by the above reply, sometimes you have to take inventory. Any excess is going against yourself (sin).

"Why does it seem impossible for me to quit a game that has defined me for so long?”

Because when one does not really know who they are, they self-define by their game, because they never took the time to define themselves by understanding what is important to them, and then acting accordingly. To not be seduced to act out of character by quick wealth or sex is to have the ultimate confidence in your character (your character should be your actions that are in line with your values. You have to determine those values before you can be consistent with them.

"maybe it’s because one invested so much into something, that he finds it difficult to call it quits. I have been a musician for many years. I don’t make a dime out of it, yet I know it’s I want to do. Once the bet you placed is so high, you give yourself many reasons why you ‘must do it’, I guess.’

This kind of grasping illustrates someone caught in the "previous investment trap." It's like when you pay $500 for a 3 day seminar and after the first hour you know you hate it, but because you paid $500 you stay to the end, and compound your losses by losing your time (the next two days) and your money (which is already gone). You have to know when to cut you loses – as soon as possible. Self-defining helps you stay out of emotional traps such as this one.

"Also, might be the endorphins we get."

I like this one and find this reason to be with new women as valid as any other reason to do anything else - and better than most.

"Finally, marriage and kids are work, but then so is living alone, or starting a business, because everything in life takes effort. But none of these situations are a problem for an Alpha male because he is a leader and master of his own destiny."

Sagely advice – all the good stuff is challenging. It also reminds me of the quote "I was miserable with you, and I am miserable without you." Hahahahahha – really that quote is an example of someone who defines themselves by their partner rather than by themselves.

"And for the cynics, the opportunities in Asia for dalliances on the side are bountiful, although I wouldn’t recommend it. If divorce should happen, you don’t get screwed financially like with the lawyers and laws in the USA. And it is much easier to return to the game where, as a 45 or 55 year old guy, its quite common to still date 25 or 30 year old women."

Great insight. I live in Costa Rica. I understand the importance of positioning both in and off the matt (kung fu studio floor). This illustrates the social and martial aspect of the ancient art. The yin and yang, the inside and the outside the kung fu studio where you learn (inside) and apply the art (outside) in its broadest sense.


"You’re what — early thirties — and already with the “is that all there is” bullshit?"

You gotta laugh at this one. Sounds like a Italian Jew doctor Laura (I am Italian BTW and many of my heroes are Jewish). Getowdahera – hahahaha. Yeah watch out Roosh he is gonna grab you by the ear when saying this and shake it real good….

"What a grim fucking cliche of a thought.

And everyone jumps to say: how profound. It’s not; it’s nothing."

I like this tough love answer a lot. My mentor said this as he held his hands about a yard apart, "There are two big things in life. On my left hand is when you are born. That is a big thing. My right hand is when you die. That is also a big thing. All this shit in the middle aint no big thing."

"Your stories about hunting snatch are good. Your “is that all there is” prattle is verbal trash. Who cares if it’s “honest.” Honest cowardice."

Having the guts to self reflect to help others do the same is hardly cowardice. This tough love answer is selfish. I think the author bemoans Roosh's honest perspective because he feels he will lose a mentor. Valid for him, but selfish.

"Think harder about what is making you ask such a rote question. And then break that chain."

I am a big fan of examining our thoughts. Overall, this is sagely advice.

"Whatever it is you do, I believe that as long as you provide a valuable and sincere service to others, you will be rewarded in correlation with the quality of that service."

Build your treasures in heaven is a great thing…. (I hope that is what I am doing by taking three hours to write and edit this piece).

"There is often some black-and-white thinking that tends to keep men chasing the diminishing returns of additional notches. With some exceptions, the manosphere primarily offers two choices to men, 1) stay single and collect notches in ONSs and STRs, or 2) “brave” getting married and game your wife to get sex and avoid divorce. Given those two choices only, many men stay free, single, and notch-collecting.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of options in between that are not as routinely or loudly discussed. Men have MLTRs concurrently, they build harems, they have open relationships, they date bisexual women who enjoy threesomes, polyamory, etc. All of these options give men the ability to build relationships in new areas with greater returns – while not having to completely “give up” the option of additional partners. They can shift some of their energy in a new direction, without completely trading one lifestyle’s benefits for another.

Like learning any “game”, this does initially take more work (although the new challenge can be fun too). Over time, however, having a steady relationship (or several) can help a man meet his sexual needs with less effort than finding a new ONS whenever he has an itch to scratch. This can free a guy up from diminishing returns and allow more time for success in other areas of life. Then again, if/when he does really want something new, he still has the ability to get it – without having to “throw away” his existing relationship(s) in the process.

Perhaps, instead of chasing notches then, you might find collecting LTRs in some fashion more appealing for awhile? Then you can decide whether you want to go back to notch collecting, eventually go the loving, family patriarch gamer road with a wife (perhaps in a foreign country), or the Hugh Hefner route and grow old with a revolving harem!"

This is very astute - practical sagely advice and enlightening. I thought I was alone on this one until I read this reply to the blog topic. This one resembles my life more than not. I find that it is a way. I am not saying it is the way. I am leaving half my wealth to my biological family (except one asshole and another jackass) and the rest is split up between my 12 great friends (great relationships that I have collected, two are women that I had love affairs with). In addition, I have some play for pay chicks here in CR who has turned out to be excellent friends for about 8 years now.

A final note regarding our humanity (mortality):

"Once a man. Twice a child. And everything is just for a while" That means we are childlike when we were born and afterwards. We become a man for a little while, then as we grow older, we become child like again. The exact ages and how long the periods last are up to the individual and the life experience. It’s a short ride so all you young guys man up and take some chances…. I am still taking chances when most guys my age are sedentary and only dream about having relationships with 20 year olds. I meet a twenty year old from Desamperados who gave me her number at the organic feria (Organic farmers market) today (sold 7.5 – I usually do not go for less). Going to text her now to set up a "get to know you" day date.

**But whether we are in our first or second childhood and even when we are men, we at times need a "binky" (jajajajaja). A security blanket to nurture the illusion that security exists…

Some men find their binky in the form of a wife… that my friend is a dangerous binky…. I prefer my dog as a binky. Much more predictable and usually more loyal…

Coyote - over and out of here!